Game of Thrones ALL BOOK SPOILERS (Up to Dance with Dragons)
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2012-04-12 11:47 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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I noticed that too... I bet that's the real horn!
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Originally Posted by RosaQuartz
Then came last night's episode -- Sam and Grenn find the cache and there's the horn sitting promenant on top of the pile, but unremarked upon. Very interesting.
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Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
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Predictive fix. |
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
I noticed that too... I bet that's a red herring!
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@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
I've been a big fan of the Arya/Tywin dynamic this season, just for the acting. But one thing I can't seem to shake is one change to the Harrenhal story.
I think it was smart to simplify the story. I have no problem with that. But I do think they are missing an important aspect to Arya in not having her change names and identities around Harrenhal. I think this is an important step in her development leading her to the Faceless Men. Maybe they will incorporate a similar story with her travels next season before she takes off for Bravos, but that is the one thing that feels missing in what is one of the strongest parts of this season.
Thoughts?
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
I wouldn't be surprised if the whole Arya story was drastically changed for the show. Most of her story is internal monologue which doesn't translate to the screen and adding yet another location with more new characters to try and keep straight just adds to an already fairly hard to follow narrative. I've heard of a lot of viewers who haven't read the books already mentioning difficulties in keeping everyone and everything straight.
Considering the name of the last episode of this season, it sure doesn't seem like they are making drastic changes to her future story.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Arya's story gets even more complex in Storm of Swords, as she drifts from being on the run with Gendry and Hot Pie, to the people at the inn, then on with Beric's group, then onto the Hound.
I have to wonder if we are skipping over Beric completely; I can't recall hearing anything about him since season 1, when he was sent out after Gregor Clegane. Of course, there is little about him in book 2, beyond mentions that he is causing trouble and being hunted. He is responsible for Cat's resurrection, but we've yet to see if that will have any far reaching implications.
Arya is one of my favorite characters in the books, and it would be a shame to not see her complete transformation.
I wasn't particularly thrilled with how they handled the Robb/Jeyne(Talisa) relationship. Robb in the books seems more like his father; his marriage to Jeyne was a honorable choice to what he considered to be his folly. I just alsways pictured him having a moment of weakness in his grief over the "deaths" of Bran and Rickon, and then making the honorable choice. With the show, it just seemed that he threw away his allegiance over his feelings, which seemed out of character. *shrugs* It's a difference, and not a huge one, so it all will end in the right place.
I find your lack of signature disturbing.
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Eh, he slept with Talisa, he hasn't married her yet. I can't imagine the Frey's caring if he got some lovin' on the side before marriage. |
Originally Posted by Frost Warden
AI wasn't particularly thrilled with how they handled the Robb/Jeyne(Talisa) relationship. Robb in the books seems more like his father; his marriage to Jeyne was a honorable choice to what he considered to be his folly. I just alsways pictured him having a moment of weakness in his grief over the "deaths" of Bran and Rickon, and then making the honorable choice. With the show, it just seemed that he threw away his allegiance over his feelings, which seemed out of character. *shrugs* It's a difference, and not a huge one, so it all will end in the right place.
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Naturally, I think we all see this going to "Robb, I'm pregnant" and Robb not wanting to have a *******.
As for Lord Beric, we haven't heard from him, but Tywin has repeatedly brought up "The Brotherhood", so something is still afoot. But yeah, I'm think they're saving the casting for Beric, Ramsey, and Mance Rayder all for Season 3. (Yes, Beric was cast for Season 1, but I have a feeling he'll be re-cast.)
Global name: @k26dp
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We've kinda sorta learned that Tyrion is a Targ as well. When Selmy speaks to Dany about Aerys, he tells her of Aerys' appreciation for Joanna Lannister. Couple that with Tywins sudden departure from Kings Landing back during Roberts Rebellion and Tywins general distaste for Tyrion and its possible|
Originally Posted by Frost Warden
I've been re-reading Clash of Kings during this season, so I could see the differences between the book and the show. I just read about Dany is the House of the Undying, and was thinking about what the warlocks were speaking to her. Specifically, I've been thinking about the "dragon with three heads".
This statement was said by Rhaegar right at the birth of his son, Aegon. He said that there was another, believing that his two children, Rhaenys and Aegon, were the first two heads. Rhaenys was definitely killed, so we can rule out that she was one of the three heads. So, looking at what we have: 1. Daenerys - There is solid evidence that she is definitely a Targaryen. 2. Jon Snow - Circumstantial evidence is pointing to him being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. 3. Aegon - While it is said that Gregor Clegane killed Aegon by bashing against the wall, babies do look a lot alike if you aren't around them enough to notice differences. Of course, we only have Varys' word on this, so we can't be sure. Of course, we only just learned of Aegon in book 5, so it's very well possible that he isn't Aegon, and Martin may yet pull another rabbit out of his hat to be the third head. |
Aegon is a fake,Tyrion is the mummer's dragon
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I must have missed that... my mind is blown! |
Originally Posted by Frogfather
We've kinda sorta learned that Tyrion is a Targ as well. When Selmy speaks to Dany about Aerys, he tells her of Aerys' appreciation for Joanna Lannister. Couple that with Tywins sudden departure from Kings Landing back during Roberts Rebellion and Tywins general distaste for Tyrion and its possible
Aegon is a fake,Tyrion is the mummer's dragon |
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
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Some theorize the heterochromia of his eyes is a clue as the only other character described as having it was one of Aegon Vs children.|
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
I must have missed that... my mind is blown!
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Also if you follow the R+L=J theory all three (Jon, Dany and Tyrion) of their mothers died giving birth to them. Buh buh bummmmmmmmm!
I don't buy Tyrion as a Targ though.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
like Mental_Giant... my mind is also blown.
D:
i cant even begin to process everything now lol omgah!
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Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Some theorize the heterochromia of his eyes is a clue as the only other character described as having it was one of Aegon Vs children.
Also if you follow the R+L=J theory all three (Jon, Dany and Tyrion) of their mothers died giving birth to them. Buh buh bummmmmmmmm! I don't buy Tyrion as a Targ though. |
Im not trying to convert anyone but.....
1) When Jaime speaks with his mothers vision in whatever book that was he got his hand chopped off...she says "Twyin had hopes for his children, his son a knight and his daughter a queen" no mention of Tyrion
2) Tywin exclaims to Tyrion "you are not my son" as he's about to die
3) Tywin is incensed when Aerys names Jaime to the Kingsguard. Its an honor but also puts Tyrion in line for the Lannister Lordship
4) Selmy tells Dany two things....that Aerys was fond of Joanna in an inappropriate manner, and that he took "liberties" during the wedding night. Im not saying **** or anything here just he was willing to go beyond certain bounds
5) Tyrions hair is closer to white than blonde.
6) The mismatched eye thing
7) Tywin suddenly and emphatically left kings landing in the middle of a damned rebellion and no reason is given.
And there you go....think what you will
Yeah, it's one theory that's been going around that I really hope doesn't come to pass. Too many hidden Targaryans.
Global name: @k26dp
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1) This can be attributed to both Joanna dying giving birth to Tyrion and him being a dwarf and hence why he isn't the most loved of his children. there is actually an interesting scene where Jaime is told by his aunt, that Tyrion is Tywins son( a reference to Tyrion being the only one to get Twyin's brains and will), while he is more like Kevin. |
Originally Posted by Frogfather
Im not trying to convert anyone but.....
1) When Jaime speaks with his mothers vision in whatever book that was he got his hand chopped off...she says "Twyin had hopes for his children, his son a knight and his daughter a queen" no mention of Tyrion 2) Tywin exclaims to Tyrion "you are not my son" as he's about to die 3) Tywin is incensed when Aerys names Jaime to the Kingsguard. Its an honor but also puts Tyrion in line for the Lannister Lordship 4) Selmy tells Dany two things....that Aerys was fond of Joanna in an inappropriate manner, and that he took "liberties" during the wedding night. Im not saying **** or anything here just he was willing to go beyond certain bounds 5) Tyrions hair is closer to white than blonde. 6) The mismatched eye thing 7) Tywin suddenly and emphatically left kings landing in the middle of a damned rebellion and no reason is given. And there you go....think what you will |
2) see above
3) it also ruined a lot of plans he had for Jaime
4) the biggest problem here is timing Tyrion is the youngest if anyone was a result of these liberties it would've been Jamie and his sister
In terms of leaving Kings Landing, its pretty obvious Tywin was a micro-manager, and on some level recognized both the strengths and weaknesses of his children, and that he coulnd't be in multiple places at the same time. He left Kings Landing with the most capable of his children( no matter how much it must have bothered him)
Really I think fundimentally why he hated Tyrion in addition to the reasons above, was that Tyrion had a lot of his grandfather in him, remember Tywin thinks kindness is a weakness.
This is not to say Tyrion couldn't be a Targ, but I think unlikely
I also think that is one of the other reasons why I like the scenes in series with Tywin and Arya so much. You can almost see him looking at Arya, and wishing Cersei was more like her (in other words having a brain)
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I think I explained things poorly. |
Originally Posted by Tocharon
1) This can be attributed to both Joanna dying giving birth to Tyrion and him being a dwarf and hence why he isn't the most loved of his children. there is actually an interesting scene where Jaime is told by his aunt, that Tyrion is Tywins son( a reference to Tyrion being the only one to get Twyin's brains and will), while he is more like Kevin.
2) see above 3) it also ruined a lot of plans he had for Jaime 4) the biggest problem here is timing Tyrion is the youngest if anyone was a result of these liberties it would've been Jamie and his sister In terms of leaving Kings Landing, its pretty obvious Tywin was a micro-manager, and on some level recognized both the strengths and weaknesses of his children, and that he coulnd't be in multiple places at the same time. He left Kings Landing with the most capable of his children( no matter how much it must have bothered him) Really I think fundimentally why he hated Tyrion in addition to the reasons above, was that Tyrion had a lot of his grandfather in him, remember Tywin thinks kindness is a weakness. This is not to say Tyrion couldn't be a Targ, but I think unlikely |
Tywin was Aerys' Hand. He left Kings Landing during Roberts Rebellion forcing Aerys to find a new Hand, which is why Connington was promoted early and then the pyromancers and I think there was a Swift in between.
Aerys and Tywin were boyhood friends. Joanna was Tywins first cousin (think about that implication for Joffrey for a sec), I think Aerys already knew Joanna at Tywins wedding and took "liberties" with her. I dont believe it was **** or anything was conceived. It would be much later when Aerys' madness comes to a crescendo or Joanna has an affair with him. Twyin packs up his bags when he finds out and takes his pregnant wife home.
Actually Tywin left Aerys service well before Rob Rebellion. Tywin was actually a very good Hand, as time went on, and Aeryss madness progressed he became more than a bit jealous of Tywin, and through in him lusting after Tywins wife. Twrins plan A was to marry Cersei to Rhaegar and for Jamie to marry Lysa Tully and eventually succeed him as Lord of Casterly Rock.
Aerys for his part, was aware of these ambitions, combined with his own jealousy and to keep Tywin in his place decided to marry his son off to someone else. Then a combination of Cerseis and Aerys efforts, got Jamie in the Kingsguard, which nixed Tywins plans. That and tired of cleaning up after Aerys messes, made him decide to resign and head home.
A short time after that, we had the events that led to Robs Rebellion. I think its been hinted that had Tywin been there, Brandon and Rickard Stark might have lived.
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Jaime was born in 266 AL, Promoted to the Kingsguard during or just before the Tourney at Harrenhal, the same Harrenhall the Rhaegar disappeared from (presumably with Lyanna)...then Tywin resigned, right in the middle of the man hunt for Rhaegar. The rebellion began with Rhaegars disappearance, that was something you think an involved Hand would want to stick around for.|
Originally Posted by Tocharon
Actually Tywin left Aerys service well before Rob Rebellion. Tywin was actually a very good Hand, as time went on, and Aeryss madness progressed he became more than a bit jealous of Tywin, and through in him lusting after Tywins wife. Twrins plan A was to marry Cersei to Rhaegar and for Jamie to marry Lysa Tully and eventually succeed him as Lord of Casterly Rock.
Aerys for his part, was aware of these ambitions, combined with his own jealousy and to keep Tywin in his place decided to marry his son off to someone else. Then a combination of Cerseis and Aerys efforts, got Jamie in the Kingsguard, which nixed Tywins plans. That and tired of cleaning up after Aerys messes, made him decide to resign and head home. A short time after that, we had the events that led to Robs Rebellion. I think its been hinted that had Tywin been there, Brandon and Rickard Stark might have lived. |
I have no problem with your description of motives, I think your timeline is slightly misleading.
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Rheagar didn't disappear with Lyanna from the Tourney at Harrenhal. He only crowned her Queen of Love and Beauty. It was another year before he disappeared with her and Robert's Rebellion started.
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Originally Posted by Frogfather
Jaime was born in 266 AL, Promoted to the Kingsguard during or just before the Tourney at Harrenhal, the same Harrenhall the Rhaegar disappeared from (presumably with Lyanna)...then Tywin resigned, right in the middle of the man hunt for Rhaegar. The rebellion began with Rhaegars disappearance, that was something you think an involved Hand would want to stick around for.
I have no problem with your description of motives, I think your timeline is slightly misleading. |
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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It couldnt have been a year....Jaime was born in 266 and knighted at the confirmed age of 15 at 281 before the Harrenhall tournament. So it could have been early 281 but more likely mid to late 281. Neds dad and brother died in 282 and marked the start of Roberts Rebellion. I dont have seasons to mark the early or lateness in a year but it seems to me considering transit times and such that Brandon wouldnt have heard about Lyanna/Rhaegar for a month or two, then another month transit time, then another month for Rickard to make it down to KL to be burned.|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Rheagar didn't disappear with Lyanna from the Tourney at Harrenhal. He only crowned her Queen of Love and Beauty. It was another year before he disappeared with her and Robert's Rebellion started.
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Unless theres something to the contrary Im going to assume Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar, Im sorry...was abducted by....shortly after that tourney. She just didnt have time to make it back home and the whole thing to start.
I know thats all nitpicky so if anyone points out a flaw I will give-over. Im not interested in defending it.
On to another discussion
From Quaithe to Dany
Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and Dark flame, lion and griffin, the suns son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.
Pale Mare= Plague
Kraken= Victarion
Dark Flame = Moqorro
Lion=
Griffon=Connington
Sun's son=Prince Quentyn
Mummers Dragon=
Perfumed Seneschal=??
If the Lion equals Tyrion, why is he grouped in this with Connington like Victarion and Moqorro. Of course, if Aegon is the mummer's dragon why is he not grouped with Connington?
Is there another Lion running around the eastern lands? For that matter who the hell is that Quaithe lady?
I have no idea.
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Everything I see says "shortly after" up to a year. Martin is known to give conflicting accounts to things. Sometimes for particular effect and other times by mistake.|
Originally Posted by Frogfather
It couldnt have been a year....Jaime was born in 266 and knighted at the confirmed age of 15 at 281 before the Harrenhall tournament. So it could have been early 281 but more likely mid to late 281. Neds dad and brother died in 282 and marked the start of Roberts Rebellion. I dont have seasons to mark the early or lateness in a year but it seems to me considering transit times and such that Brandon wouldnt have heard about Lyanna/Rhaegar for a month or two, then another month transit time, then another month for Rickard to make it down to KL to be burned.
Unless theres something to the contrary Im going to assume Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar, Im sorry...was abducted by....shortly after that tourney. She just didnt have time to make it back home and the whole thing to start. I know thats all nitpicky so if anyone points out a flaw I will give-over. Im not interested in defending it. |
According to A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
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| During the Tourney at Harrenhal, Rhaegar Targaryen seemed unstoppable, and defeated even Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. Taking the winter rose crown for the Queen of Love and Beauty, he revealed his interest in Lyanna Stark by passing over his wife, the Princess Elia of Dorne, and setting it in Lyanna's lap[3] A year later Rhaegar apparently kidnapped Lyanna, for reasons unknown, however this act ultimately triggered Robert's Rebellion and the downfall of the Targaryen dynasty. |
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| Shortly after the tournament Lyanna was apparently kidnapped by Rhaegar. Brandon Stark, upon hearing this, rode straight to King's Landing, and upon entering the keep he roared for Rhaegar "to come out and die." King Aerys had Brandon and his companions arrested. Shortly after his father, Rickard Stark, was summoned to the city to answer for the crimes of his son. He was immediately arrested himself and shortly after brutally killed with his son.[6] This was a primary impetus for Robert's Rebellion. |
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| Crown Prince Rhaegar Targaryen was champion, and in the end chose Lyanna Stark as Queen of Love and Beauty giving her a crown of blue winter roses. This was scandalous in that, not only was Rhaegar already married (to Elia of Dorne), but Lyanna herself was betrothed to Lord Robert Baratheon.[2] Rhaegar's indiscretion culminated in his abduction of Lyanna a year later, which touched off the War of the Usurper and brought an end to Targaryen rule. Also at this occasion, 15-year-old Jaime Lannister was admitted into the order of the Kingsguard, and a mystery knight, the "Knight of the Laughing Tree", appeared in the lists to fight for the honour of Howland Reed of Greywater Watch. |
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| Robert fell in love with Eddard's sister Lyanna, and her father Lord Rickard approved the match.[3] However, some time after this event Lyanna was apparently kidnapped and taken against her will from Winterfell by Crown Prince Rhaegar Targaryen.[1] The kidnapped set in motion a chain of events that lead to Robert's Rebellion. |
You can't go by seasons as the entire year is typically one season. It's all kind of squished in the 281-282 timeframe. Whether or not it's an actual year or a few months one way or the other, I don't know.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
That is most excellently conflicting and supports nothing and everything simultaneously....terrific
Thank you for the quotes. I always appreciate someone actually researching their point
--Frog
I'm not sure the books would be nearly as good if it wasn't for the simultaneous conflict/support of the POV structure. It allows for wonderful speculation, theorizing and paranoia for the reader.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Question about the television series:
Initially after casting they announced Oona Chaplin as Jeyne (no last name given) yet on the show she has so far gone by Talisa from Volantis. Given this is a vast departure from the books do you think there is going to be more to Talisa (i.e. she's actually a Westerosi named Jeyne concealing her true identity) or that for whatever reasons the powers that be decided to completely reinvent the character?
I don't think the changes so far are a huge deal as there are obvious reasons to make changes to this story so Robb isn't away for an entire season and I think we'll end up in the same place as the books. I just wonder why they've manipulated the story to have her come directly from Essos.
Theories? Thoughts?
Trivia: the actress is Charlie Chaplin's granddaughter.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Then came last night's episode -- Sam and Grenn find the cache and there's the horn sitting promenant on top of the pile, but unremarked upon. Very interesting.
Global name: @k26dp