Game of Thrones ALL BOOK SPOILERS (Up to Dance with Dragons)
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2012-04-12 11:47 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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I barely understand the history behind the two Blackfyre Rebellions... which probably means they will be crucial to the plot! |
Originally Posted by RosaQuartz
I was about 50/50 after my first read, but on re-read, I'm about 90% certain that Aegon is a fake.
I believe he's actually the son of Illyrio Mopatis and his silver-haired second wife. I'd say there's also a chance that Aegon may have Blackfyre blood through his mother's side (I'd give it a 40% chance). Finally, I'd say there's some chance that Varys himself may come from Blackfyre stock, and could potentially be Illyrio's brother-in-law (15%). |
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Quote:
Short version: family drama.|
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
I barely understand the history behind the two Blackfyre Rebellions... which probably means they will be crucial to the plot!
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Imagine Thanksgiving dinner with the family, but with swords and ba$tard cousins.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Wanted to discuss the latest episode with spoilers......
The Tyrion stuff has been outstanding this season. Probably the stuff that feels the most true to the nature of the books. Dinklage and the people he's acted with have done an outstanding job of showing just how special this character is. That said I worry that the show is trying too hard to show how "bad" Joffrey is and how "good" Tyrion is. I think the fact that Tyrion is truely working hard to make Joffrey a success is lost a bit. Now mind you I'm doing a little nitpicking here, but I'm worried that non readers will lose the fact that Tyrion at this point is trying to be a good Lannister. Why is it important? Well I think when he finally deals with his Daddy issues it will lose it's impact if we are made to think Tyrion might as well be on the Starks side. Anyone else see this?
Qarth and Harrenhall were both very impressive. While Harrenhall isn't how I pictured it in my head I was glad they gave it the massive scale. And Qarth was much more impressive than I'd imagined and makes much more sense to me now that I've seen their interpretation. Loved the "Karth" not "Quarth" bit. We've all had it in our heads.
Maisie Williams is knocking it out of the park this season. That kid can act. Just watch her non verbal reactions to things. I'm giving her an underdogs chance at an Emmy this year if her story continues as strongly. Will be interesting to see how they compress things for her arc with Tywin at Harrenhall. I'm personally not that worked up over these changes as I felt that part of the books became very confusing with who was in control, etc. I'm assuming that Bolton will at some point take it to give us more of an introduction to him than just in the field with Robb.
Loved the episode. Loved the shadow baby. Can not wait for next week!
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
I definitely agree that they are going out of their way to make Joff evil, which really isn't necessary.
As far as making Tyrion too "good"... well, when you're surrounded by actual villains (Joff), fools (Joff & Cersei), and schemers (Littlefinger & Varys), it's bound to make you look good. Hell, I was rooting for Tyrion at this point in the book, even though I wanted Robb to eventually win the North.
Tyrion is still a Lannister to his bones, and I think it's coming through, although maybe a little bit too subtly.
This was not one of my favorite episodes, but I'm waiting for Renly's end so we can see more Brienne and set her off on her quest!
BTW, I always pronounced the "Qu" in Quarth... I guess I was wrong this whole time.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Quote:
And don't get me wrong, I was fully on Tyrion-love reading Clash as well. And like I said, its only a minor issue I have. I just think they could turn down the hyperbole on Joff and turn up the Lannister in Tyrion a bit. It's there don't get me wrong, I think its the strongest arc of the season. I just wish it was a little more finessed.
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Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
I definitely agree that they are going out of their way to make Joff evil, which really isn't necessary.
As far as making Tyrion too "good"... well, when you're surrounded by actual villains (Joff), fools (Joff & Cersei), and schemers (Littlefinger & Varys), it's bound to make you look good. Hell, I was rooting for Tyrion at this point in the book, even though I wanted Robb to eventually win the North. Tyrion is still a Lannister to his bones, and I think it's coming through, although maybe a little bit too subtly. This was not one of my favorite episodes, but I'm waiting for Renly's end so we can see more Brienne and set her off on her quest! BTW, I always pronounced the "Qu" in Quarth... I guess I was wrong this whole time. |
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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Agreed.
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Originally Posted by MentalMaden
And don't get me wrong, I was fully on Tyrion-love reading Clash as well. And like I said, its only a minor issue I have. I just think they could turn down the hyperbole on Joff and turn up the Lannister in Tyrion a bit. It's there don't get me wrong, I think its the strongest arc of the season. I just wish it was a little more finessed.
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Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Kind of similar: What impression do you get from TV-Stannis as opposed to Book-Stannis. I think they're pretty accurate, if I remember correctly I had kind of "he's a bad dude" vibe from him during reading Clash, and I kind of see him being portrayed as a heavy on the show. He's turned into one of my most favorite characters now, so I feel pretty good at the direction they are going with him as far as parallel with the books. At first seems like a bad guy but then winning readers/viewers over. Thoughts?
Edit- and what are your thoughts on what seems to be reduction and possible redaction of Selyse and Shireen respectively? Personally I think they will give Selyse more of a role later and likely after they recast from an extra to an established actress. The Shireen bit worries me as I think she may play a vital role further down the road in Books 6 or 7.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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Wasn't there a confirmation of Jon's mother in one of the stories. I want to say is was when Davos was in White Harbour, but I don't remember the details.
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Originally Posted by Olantern
Oh, speaking of Jon Snow, I assumed up until recently that we'd get some kind of interesting story about his origins. After all, it's radically out of character for Ned Stark to father an illegitimate child. I had always suspected that he was not Ned Stark's son, but his nephew, the son of Ned's dead sister and the prince of Targaryen. (For a particularly satisfying twist, what if the relationship wasn't a hostile abuction, but a secret marriage accepted by both the parties? Notice that this gives Jon one of the strongest legal claims to the Iron Throne.) However, since Martin's point with the story seems to be, "Things happen completely at random, there's no plan, ooh, ontological riff ontological riff ontological riff," encapsulated in the oft-repeated "This is not a story," I've come to believe this is highly unlikely.
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There has been no confirmation of Jon's mother as of Book 5. As long as you don't believe what Ned says.
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Originally Posted by Diggis
Wasn't there a confirmation of Jon's mother in one of the stories. I want to say is was when Davos was in White Harbour, but I don't remember the details.
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@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Let's take a moment to discuss the Wall since Lothic is getting us riled up about it in the non-spoilers thread.
I always assumed that once the threat of the Others became known, then everyone would unite to fight the Greater Threat™. As we know now, only Stannis came to the aid of the Watch, and that was mostly to fulfill what he was told was his own prophecy.
The Wilding Army was turned back at the Wall, but only to be integrated into the Watch later under Snow. He even went so far as to send a rescue party north to try to *save* the Wildings!
We don't know what happens following Jon's "death", but I think it's safe to say the storyline of the Wall is not as generic as anticipated.
If anyone is to face the Others now, it will probably be a strange alliance of Stannis, the Night's Watch, Wildings, and maybe Dany if she *ever* gets her dragons over the Narrow Sea. Maybe we can throw the North in there under Snow, as once he is resurrected (you know it's going to happen!), then he can take his rightful claim as Lord of Winterfell and King in the North (or Warden of the North under Stannis).
MM: I think Shireen and Patchface were both written out. Stannis has no children which is presumably why he took Melisandre on the Westeros table. I did find that out of character for a man who values his word and honor as much as he does, but I guess if they were planning on showing the Shadow Baby they have to show how Shadow Babies are made. 
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
On Shireen for now (Wall to come later), I think they wrote themselves an out, just in case Shireen is significant. Mel says to him, " she gave you nothing, no sons". Which could just mean she gave him no male heir or it could mean nothing. I think a quick hand wave could be made.
Is Shireen vital at this point in the story? Not really. My concern is Val's claim that the child is unclean and needs to be killed. That makes me wonder if that statement isn't a little prophetic and may play an important role on the wall. If so it can easily be substituted down the road I guess.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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There has been at least three instances of "confirmation" (that I remember): Ned telling (or suggesting) her identity to Robert. Lord Iforgethisname telling Arya when she's with the Brotherhood. And Davos being told while at the Three Sisters.|
Originally Posted by Diggis
Wasn't there a confirmation of Jon's mother in one of the stories. I want to say is was when Davos was in White Harbour, but I don't remember the details.
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Not all of these stories agree, however, so, take them with a wheelbarrow of salt. Especially if someone did work actively to make up a cover story.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
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On reading the first book, I got the impression that Jon Snow's parentage would turn out to be a significant development. The multiple stories lead me to believe that none of them is likely to be right. However, they've also left me with the impression that we'll get some kind of big reveal of the "true truth" down the line, but it won't affect the course of events at all. This would seem to me to be in keeping with the "at random" feel of the story so far. (Note that I'm not saying the author has no plan; I'm saying he wants to create the appearance of the story being "realistically" unplanned, rather than the sense of inevitability that acts as a draw with much fiction.)
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Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
There has been at least three instances of "confirmation" (that I remember): Ned telling (or suggesting) her identity to Robert. Lord Iforgethisname telling Arya when she's with the Brotherhood. And Davos being told while at the Three Sisters.
Not all of these stories agree, however, so, take them with a wheelbarrow of salt. Especially if someone did work actively to make up a cover story. |
"Bombarding the CoH/V fora with verbosity since January, 2006"
Djinniman, level 50 inv/fire tanker, on Victory
-and 40 others on various servers
A CoH Comic: Kid Eros in "One Light"
Quote:
This is an ALL BOOK SPOILERS thread, but if the most supported parentage turns out to be correct (Lyanna Stark + Rhaegar Targaryen) that would have a huge impact on the story. Jon Snow would have the best claim to the Iron Throne out of anyone! Plus, it makes him heir to Winterfell (although I think Robb already did this with a note he sent in Book 3, I think).
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Originally Posted by Olantern
On reading the first book, I got the impression that Jon Snow's parentage would turn out to be a significant development. The multiple stories lead me to believe that none of them is likely to be right. However, they've also left me with the impression that we'll get some kind of big reveal of the "true truth" down the line, but it won't affect the course of events at all. This would seem to me to be in keeping with the "at random" feel of the story so far. (Note that I'm not saying the author has no plan; I'm saying he wants to create the appearance of the story being "realistically" unplanned, rather than the sense of inevitability that acts as a draw with much fiction.)
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Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Quote:
Initially, upon reading the first book, I thought so, too, but I revised my opinion about whether who holds the Iron Throne is important after several books.|
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
This is an ALL BOOK SPOILERS thread, but if the most supported parentage turns out to be correct (Lyanna Stark + Rhaegar Targaryen) that would have a huge impact on the story. Jon Snow would have the best claim to the Iron Throne out of anyone! Plus, it makes him heir to Winterfell (although I think Robb already did this with a note he sent in Book 3, I think).
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Currently, my expectations have been set up to be the following:
1) Jon Snow is killed off (or stays dead) doing something of some significance, though possibly ultimately fruitless. ("Martyred by Others" has been my favorite idea here, but we've seen so little of the Others themselves that I consider that a stretch.)
2a) A book or several hundred pages later, one character makes an offhand remark to another, "Oh, yeah, that Jon Snow guy? He was actually the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen/Paet the Pig Boy/Darth Vader/what-have-you. Too bad he's dead now."
-or-
2b) Just before he accomplishes his Dying Thing of Significance, Snow receives the revelation of his parentage, but is unable to do anything with it. Despite the fair amount of experience he's received, I can't see him (or anyone, really) actually achieving the Iron Throne.
Of course, those expectations arose through several books of reinforcement. All of that could just be misdirection on an immense scale.
This thread brought a related idea to mind. I had been assuming all along that all the prophecies relating to R'hlor the Red Lord (or however you spell his name), the Prince That Was Promised, and the like, referred to Danaerys, the character most associated with fire. This thread suggests to me that the feeling among fandom is that many refer to Jon Snow. Assume, for the sake of argument, that the supposition about Rhaegar is correct. Given the creepy Targaryen propensity for brother-sister marriages, while I would have discounted it until I saw you all suggest it, I suppose we could see some kind of relationship towards the end of things between Snow and Danaerys.
This brings us to another thing that's bothered me for several books now- how is Danaerys going to get killed off? I've kind of been assuming she will meet an unpleasant fate before the series's end since about the second book. Despite having one of the best claims to the Iron Throne, as well as, unlike most of the claimants, a sincere desire to rule well and a plan to do so, I've always gotten more of a "saintly" than "kingly" vibe from her. She isn't so much a political organizer (look how the slaver cities turned out in Dance) as a focus for inspiration and loyalty, a hero. That kind of character in this kind of story tends not to survive, yet we have an elaborate prophecy about all her future deeds.
However, if she ended up with Snow and he rather than she is playing the role of the Red Lord, he can slaughter her to reignite the flames of the universe, or ... well, I'm kind of hazy on Red Priest theology, but you get the idea. My main problem with this idea is that we haven't seen much of the threat of this scale, though we know it's out there. I'm not sure it's intended as anything more than window dressing for the more personal dramas of individual characters. We will have to wait and see.
"Bombarding the CoH/V fora with verbosity since January, 2006"
Djinniman, level 50 inv/fire tanker, on Victory
-and 40 others on various servers
A CoH Comic: Kid Eros in "One Light"
Semi related.
I'm not too convinced that there is much if any difference between the Great Other and R'hollor. Sure one works with fire and one cold, but look what we've actually seen them do. They've both been responsible for reviving dead people (Red seems a little better with it) but where has that actually been for the purposes of anything but destruction. The Lightning Lord and Cat became hellbent on death and vengeance. Wights are mindless killing machines. Why is the Lord of Light any better than the Great Other? Because they say so? Birthing shadow babies to sneak into someone's tent/castle to easily kill them is a just and fair way to practice?
We've heard rumblings that Martin has said something along the lines of eventually hearing the perspective of the Others and that it would shed some new light on things. It all feels like their only purpose is to destroy the world so it can all start over again. Neither side good or bad; not the right or the wrong. Both blindly working toward one goal. Almost a cosmic game of thrones. If you ask me, it almost seems like the work of the Stranger or the Two Faced God.
Now this isn't necessarily a theory or mine or anything, just little thoughts in the back of my head everytime I hear a character talk about the virtues of the Lord of Light or the evil of the Others. I just don't buy it. And I don't buy Melisandre's load of bull either. She's either a terrible priestess or working some other agenda.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Quote:
This is all terribly depressing.|
Originally Posted by Olantern
Initially, upon reading the first book, I thought so, too, but I revised my opinion about whether who holds the Iron Throne is important after several books.
Currently, my expectations have been set up to be the following: 1) Jon Snow is killed off (or stays dead) doing something of some significance, though possibly ultimately fruitless. ("Martyred by Others" has been my favorite idea here, but we've seen so little of the Others themselves that I consider that a stretch.) 2a) A book or several hundred pages later, one character makes an offhand remark to another, "Oh, yeah, that Jon Snow guy? He was actually the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen/Paet the Pig Boy/Darth Vader/what-have-you. Too bad he's dead now." -or- 2b) Just before he accomplishes his Dying Thing of Significance, Snow receives the revelation of his parentage, but is unable to do anything with it. Despite the fair amount of experience he's received, I can't see him (or anyone, really) actually achieving the Iron Throne. Of course, those expectations arose through several books of reinforcement. All of that could just be misdirection on an immense scale. This thread brought a related idea to mind. I had been assuming all along that all the prophecies relating to R'hlor the Red Lord (or however you spell his name), the Prince That Was Promised, and the like, referred to Danaerys, the character most associated with fire. This thread suggests to me that the feeling among fandom is that many refer to Jon Snow. Assume, for the sake of argument, that the supposition about Rhaegar is correct. Given the creepy Targaryen propensity for brother-sister marriages, while I would have discounted it until I saw you all suggest it, I suppose we could see some kind of relationship towards the end of things between Snow and Danaerys. This brings us to another thing that's bothered me for several books now- how is Danaerys going to get killed off? I've kind of been assuming she will meet an unpleasant fate before the series's end since about the second book. Despite having one of the best claims to the Iron Throne, as well as, unlike most of the claimants, a sincere desire to rule well and a plan to do so, I've always gotten more of a "saintly" than "kingly" vibe from her. She isn't so much a political organizer (look how the slaver cities turned out in Dance) as a focus for inspiration and loyalty, a hero. That kind of character in this kind of story tends not to survive, yet we have an elaborate prophecy about all her future deeds. However, if she ended up with Snow and he rather than she is playing the role of the Red Lord, he can slaughter her to reignite the flames of the universe, or ... well, I'm kind of hazy on Red Priest theology, but you get the idea. My main problem with this idea is that we haven't seen much of the threat of this scale, though we know it's out there. I'm not sure it's intended as anything more than window dressing for the more personal dramas of individual characters. We will have to wait and see. |
Why can't Jon and Dany just get married and rule Westeros and Tyrion will be Hand and everyone lives happily ever after?
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Quote:
I think that's where conventional fantasy wisdom takes the story and it quite possibly is the way it will end. If written well it could work. I just feel like Martin is going to put a major twist into it all. Dany, Jon and Tyrion (IMHO) are the three main characters to this story and it would seem they are all on a path to eventually meet. Will they end up allies? It seems that way. I'm not 100% convinced that Dany will end up an agent for good though. Not that she's evil by nature or anything, I just wonder how far from the Mad King she really is.|
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
This is all terribly depressing.
Why can't Jon and Dany just get married and rule Westeros and Tyrion will be Hand and everyone lives happily ever after? |
I think an interesting thought (not a solid theory, just musing for fun) is Dany realizes that being Queen of the realm is no different than the slavers in Essos and melts the iron throne and allows the 7 kingdoms their own sovereignty. Jon the North, Tyrion the West, Sansa the Eyrie and Riverlands, She returns to the Stormland and Dragonstone, blah blah blah. [Insert whatever else here] Just typing out loud.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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That would be an acceptable ending to me! Dany definitely has the potential to be a monster, but after what's she's seen out East I think she will become more careful with her power. We'll have to see.|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
I think an interesting thought (not a solid theory, just musing for fun) is Dany realizes that being Queen of the realm is no different than the slavers in Essos and melts the iron throne and allows the 7 kingdoms their own sovereignty. Jon the North, Tyrion the West, Sansa the Eyrie and Riverlands, She returns to the Stormland and Dragonstone, blah blah blah. [Insert whatever else here] Just typing out loud.
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I honestly don't think GRRM will go for an "Everybody Dies!" ending, but he could go for a screwball ending.
Poderick Payne as King, and Dolorous Edd will be his Hand!
Brienne would be Captain of the Kingsguard, of course.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Quote:
I would watch that sitcom!|
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
Poderick Payne as King, and Dolorous Edd will be his Hand!
Brienne would be Captain of the Kingsguard, of course. |
Also, I get the same feelings about the Others and the Red Lord that MentalMaden has. The Red Lord, despite being purely a concept at this point, is one of the more frightening characters in the story, given that he cheerfully offed his wife (see my comments upthread about Ned for how I feel about these sorts of priorities) and that his priests seem either hapless (Thoros of Myr) or underhanded, if not downright wicked (Melisandre). The Others, on the other (heh heh) hand ... all we've really seen them do on their own is taunt a Night's Watchman as they fight him. We know next to nothing about them. They could easily end up being, if not sympathetic, at least not-evil. I just hope we start hearing about them soon; with only two books left, I'm hoping that most of the players for the endgame are in place or about to be.
"Bombarding the CoH/V fora with verbosity since January, 2006"
Djinniman, level 50 inv/fire tanker, on Victory
-and 40 others on various servers
A CoH Comic: Kid Eros in "One Light"
Not-at-all-related:
If you had to think up a food to represent each of the Seven Kingdoms, what would it be? I ask this because yes, I am considering doing a Game of Thrones diner party.
"Bombarding the CoH/V fora with verbosity since January, 2006"
Djinniman, level 50 inv/fire tanker, on Victory
-and 40 others on various servers
A CoH Comic: Kid Eros in "One Light"
Quote:
Agreed, I think an "Everybody Dies" ending is just as tired and lazy as a "Happily Ever After" cliched ending. I'm expecting bittersweet, a good mixture or sad and happy. Poignant.
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Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
I honestly don't think GRRM will go for an "Everybody Dies!" ending, .
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@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Quote:
Fish for the Riverlands?|
Originally Posted by Olantern
Not-at-all-related:
If you had to think up a food to represent each of the Seven Kingdoms, what would it be? I ask this because yes, I am considering doing a Game of Thrones diner party. |
A fowl dish for the Eyrie...
Something spicy for Dorne.
An overall, Fire and Ice item? Baked Alaska.
I find your lack of signature disturbing.
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Great question! I'd go with this 7(+1)-course meal.|
Originally Posted by Olantern
Not-at-all-related:
If you had to think up a food to represent each of the Seven Kingdoms, what would it be? I ask this because yes, I am considering doing a Game of Thrones diner party. |
Appetizer: (Dorne) Cheese-stuffed jalapenos.
Cheese: (Iron Isles) Brine-packed goat cheeses.
Soup: (The Vale) Sister's Stew in sourdough bowls.
Fish: (Riverlands) River trout with lemon or encrusted with almonds.
Palate Cleanser: (Stormlands) Black tea with apple slices.
Main Course: (North) Venison or pork pies, or honeyed chicken.
Salad: (The Reach) Fresh mixed greens with green beans and fragrants.
Dessert: (Westerlands): Lemon cakes.
If you need more ideas, try a website called Inn At The Crossroads. Some very cool recipies there.
Global name: @k26dp
I believe he's actually the son of Illyrio Mopatis and his silver-haired second wife. I'd say there's also a chance that Aegon may have Blackfyre blood through his mother's side (I'd give it a 40% chance). Finally, I'd say there's some chance that Varys himself may come from Blackfyre stock, and could potentially be Illyrio's brother-in-law (15%).
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff