Game of Thrones ALL BOOK SPOILERS (Up to Dance with Dragons)
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2012-04-12 11:47 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
Just wanted to say I'm surprised to see all this hate for Arya and Bran (not to mention Ned!).
I agree that Arya has become less interesting since starting her training as an assassin apprentice, but I think you have to respect vengeance as a motivating force. Hell, half the characters in the book are motivated by vengeance, and it usually doesn't end well (Remember the Viper?), but I can respect it, especially in Arya's case where she's lost everything (as far as she can tell).
I'll be upset if she ends up killing the wrong person tragically in the end. My hope is she'll come to her senses before then and end up doing something good for her House (or maybe for Dany).
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Quote:
Pretty much yes. He had a hand in the poisoning. He also hired the dwarf jousters knowing this would cause problems with Tyrion and Joffrey hoping that Tyrion would be found guilty and executed, leaving Sansa a widow. /creepy
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Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
Wasn't Littlefinger behind Tyrion's fall? Maybe he was in league with Varys in terms of being loyal to the Targaryens, but I thought he was the architect of it.
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@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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Yes, it was all to get Sansa for himself (super creepy!). I don't think Littlefinger has any allegiance except to himself. Waiting for him to get his comeuppance... and hoping that Sansa will have a hand in it. I missed her in Dance, I really want to see how the Vale plays out.
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Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Pretty much yes. He had a hand in the poisoning. He also hired the dwarf jousters knowing this would cause problems with Tyrion and Joffrey hoping that Tyrion would be found guilty and executed, leaving Sansa a widow. /creepy
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Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
And there is the difference between Varys and Littlefinger. Varys wants what he thinks is best "for the realm". Littlefinger just wants what is best for him.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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But are the Targaryens really what's best for the realm? Dany's okay, but what if her son is like her brother? Or her FATHER?|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
And there is the difference between Varys and Littlefinger. Varys wants what he thinks is best "for the realm". Littlefinger just wants what is best for him.
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Varys has definitely gone up in my estimation for the end of Dance, but I'm not sure his solution is the best one.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Quote:
Notice I said what Varys thinks is best for the realm and note where I put quotations. Not what is actually best for the realm. Littlefinger on the other hand doesn't care if anything is good for anyone except himself. He manipulates the pieces to his own end.|
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
But are the Targaryens really what's best for the realm? Dany's okay, but what if her son is like her brother? Or her FATHER?
Varys has definitely gone up in my estimation for the end of Dance, but I'm not sure his solution is the best one. |
Edit-and no I don't think Targs are the best solution either.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Here's some Varys thoughts.
Regarding his role in Tyrion's downfall... it's obvious that even if Varys didn't have a roll in Tyrion's frame re: Joffery's poisoning, then he arranged for Tyrion, Shae, and Tywin to all be in one place. Varys probably understood Tyrion well enough to know that finding Shae in Tywin's bed would slip him over the edge. With Tywin dead and Tyrion on the run, that left the Red Keep to the very unsteady leadership of Cersei. If disruption was what he wanted, it's certainly what he got, in spades.
Regarding serving "the realm"... I don't necessarily think he believes a Targaryean on the Iron Throne in-and-of itself is a great thing (certainly Visceryes would have been a disaster), but we now know that he's had a Prince Aegon up his sleave the whole time. In his converstation with dying Keven Lannister, he talked about Aegon's upbringing, how he's walked with common men, etc. He, Illyrio, and Connington have made what he feels will be the perfect ruler.
Global name: @k26dp
Is Vary's Aegon an imposter though? Is he really Rhaegar's son or is he a just some kid Vary's and Illyrio have groomed for the job?
There is Danny's dream/vision about what she calls a "Mummer's Dragon" which is mirrored by a warning of Quaith's about a "Mummer's Dragon"
I've not made up my own mind just yet mind you.
There are reason's to believe he's not a Targaryen. I think most people don't think he's legit. To be honest, though, Varys might know it, and of course it could be a good thing. No Targ crazy, but he looks like part so the claim is valid.
I just read something that claims the Mummer's Dragon line is meant to be read as a possessive. Varys would be the Mummer, so it's *his* Dragon, not a fake Dragon. That would work too... in which case, he really did save Aegon.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
I believe the kid is a fake, and Varys is fully aware of this. I think he was pretty much Varys' backup plan if all else failed. I also don't think he'll last very long into the next book. I think he's going to die a pretty horrible death.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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Quentyn 2: Electric Boogaloo?
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Originally Posted by MentalMaden
I believe the kid is a fake, and Varys is fully aware of this. I think he was pretty much Varys' backup plan if all else failed. I also don't think he'll last very long into the next book. I think he's going to die a pretty horrible death.
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Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
OR
Quentyn 2: Ghost Protocol
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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Both Oberyn and Quentyn come to violent and largely pointless ends. It seems to be a Dornish tradition!
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Originally Posted by MentalMaden
OR
Quentyn 2: Ghost Protocol |
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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Truth!|
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
Both Oberyn and Quentyn come to violent and largely pointless ends. It seems to be a Dornish tradition!
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The more I learn about the Dornish the more I like them, but they just don't seem to have a handle on this Game of Thrones thing. I really thought that the plan of marrying Q to Dany was going to pan out, but when she dissed him it was over. Q should have returned home in shame rather than stay and die stupidly.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
A little book-spoiler TV discussion:
Let's take the ridiculous HBO "seems to be required" sexity sex sex content out of the equation and get to the heart of the matter. Is it wise or hurtful (for future storylines) in showing Margery's deft hand at court so early?
I like that they are giving more dimensions to the Renly story, and while it induced and eye roll or two, I "get why" they are doing it. But I kind of worry that it won't pay off as well when she does end up in King's Landing. The books do such a good job of slowly revealing she isn't the "maiden in a tower" that she seems to be and I wonder if HBO hasn't made a bit of an error here.
Thoughts?
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Westeros.org is my one stop shop for episode recaps and analysis and they address the issue of Margaery explicitly (no pun intended). It's a definite and deliberate change of her character. I would chalk some of it up to her not being a 16yo girl like she was in the novels. Watching her grow and learn to play the Game was fun in the books, but that type of character development may be too subtle for the series.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Quote:
I'd just finished Elio and Linda's video before typing the question. LOL Great Mental's think alike.
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Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
Westeros.org is my one stop shop for episode recaps and analysis and they address the issue of Margaery explicitly (no pun intended). It's a definite and deliberate change of her character. I would chalk some of it up to her not being a 16yo girl like she was in the novels. Watching her grow and learn to play the Game was fun in the books, but that type of character development may be too subtle for the series.
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@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Quote:
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Originally Posted by MentalMaden
I'd just finished Elio and Linda's video before typing the question. LOL Great Mental's think alike.
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Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
I haven't seen any of the new episodes yet, so I can't really comment on the change to her character. Though, if I understand the change correctly it sounds unfortunate, but understandable.
Edit: Having seen pictures, I think she certainly looks the part. Though, someone should tell her she's putting her dress on backwards. Awkward!
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
Quote:
Yep, he's obviously got an overarching plan, and he obviously can't plan small details in advance. (And "small" is a relative term with a work of this scope.) My point is that he doesn't have a theme, other than "life is meaningless." Looking random and erratic requires at least as much planning as looking as if events are thematically inevitable. This makes it somewhat harder to predict events than in most fiction, by the way. (By the way, since it's a concept so dear to geekdom, I recommend everyone who hasn't already look into the term "ontological riff" and the Turkey City Lexicon.)|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
He knows who is what. Who will die. Who will win and who will lose. Maybe some of the minor characters fates are fuzzy, but don't fool yourself into thinking he's writing all of this on the fly. I think a lot of people feel this way because 1. he's going against so many established cliches in fantasy that many fantasy readers see it as random 2. it's a good way to explain his slow writing production (Oh he's bogged down because he doesn't know what will happen). He knows fully well what's going to happen.
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One thing I particularly appreciate about this work is that there are enough characters that the reader can dislike a character who's meant to be sympathetic or like an unsympathetic one without seeing the whole story upside-down as a result, which tends to happen in situations with fewer protagonists.
***
Unrelated matter: Dorne is New Mexico as New Mexicans see it. Discuss.
"Bombarding the CoH/V fora with verbosity since January, 2006"
Djinniman, level 50 inv/fire tanker, on Victory
-and 40 others on various servers
A CoH Comic: Kid Eros in "One Light"
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I'd probably argue that his theme isn't "life is meaningless" it's more "life is merciless/unrelenting/unbiased"....something along those lines. Honor isn't always rewarded and evil isn't always punished. Sometimes the black hat wins. Etc. Etc. Etc.|
Originally Posted by Olantern
Yep, he's obviously got an overarching plan, and he obviously can't plan small details in advance. (And "small" is a relative term with a work of this scope.) My point is that he doesn't have a theme, other than "life is meaningless." Looking random and erratic requires at least as much planning as looking as if events are thematically inevitable. This makes it somewhat harder to predict events than in most fiction, by the way. (By the way, since it's a concept so dear to geekdom, I recommend everyone who hasn't already look into the term "ontological riff" and the Turkey City Lexicon.)
One thing I particularly appreciate about this work is that there are enough characters that the reader can dislike a character who's meant to be sympathetic or like an unsympathetic one without seeing the whole story upside-down as a result, which tends to happen in situations with fewer protagonists. *** Unrelated matter: Dorne is New Mexico as New Mexicans see it. Discuss. |
I'm more curious about your topic and Dorne. Would you mind expanding on exactly what you mean by the statement? Then I'll dive in.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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Sure. I suppose the bare statement might not make much sense if you don't know much about New Mexico. (A bit of background on Olantern: while I am not from there and haven't lived there for a while, I lived in Albuquerque for four years while attending college.)|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
I'm more curious about your topic and Dorne. Would you mind expanding on exactly what you mean by the statement? Then I'll dive in.
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First, why am I discussing New Mexico in a thread ostensibly about the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros? For those who aren't aware, Martin has lived in New Mexico (Santa Fe area) for quite some time now. I think he has made use of some aspects of New Mexico culture in presenting Dorne. Obviously, it isn't and isn't intended to be a one to one correspondence, but I found some interesting similarities.
While each of the Seven Kingdoms is somewhat distinctive, Dorne is arguably the most so. That certainly seems to be the attitude of the other kingdoms. We're frequently told how odd Dornish law, food, etc. are from everyone else's point of view. The kingdom is even of a slightly different ethnicity, Rhoynish rather than Andal/First Men, as the other kingdoms are.
The details are similar between NM and Dorne: both have warm-to-hot, dry climates, both have cuisine characterized by hot peppers (some of the dishes themselves seem the same), and both are strongly influenced by different cultural or political systems (Rhoynish in the case of Dorne, Spanish-speaking New World in the case of New Mexico) that are part of larger political systems with a different background. We even see parallel differences in the law (community property structures in New Mexico, Dornish law of female inheritance).
More important than those details, though, I think Martin succeeded in capturing the way New Mexico sees itself. I have lived in many different places across the U.S., and of all of them, New Mexico is by far the most independent and the most proud of how distinctive it is. We see a similar attitude in the Dornish motto of "Unbent, unbowed, unbroken." Again, this may not mean much to readers not familiar with the real place, but there seems to be a similarity in attitudes there to me.
Now, if we were to read an exchange between a Dornishman and some character from, say, the Stormlands, who says, "Oh, I love Dorne! Sunspear is so artistic!" and is then surprised to learn that there are other cities in Dorne, that would clinich in for me. (Substitute "Santa Fe" for "Sunspear" in the above sentence to hear what most people say to me when I mention New Mexico.)
I sometimes think the North is meant to suggest Alaska, too (it's certainly large enough), but the identification there seems kinda thin to me.
"Bombarding the CoH/V fora with verbosity since January, 2006"
Djinniman, level 50 inv/fire tanker, on Victory
-and 40 others on various servers
A CoH Comic: Kid Eros in "One Light"
Ahhhh, very interesting perspective. Given it's where Martin is from, it seems like there is definitely some influence. I've always thought of Dorne as a mashup of Spain and North Africa as in Moorish Spain. There is a lot written about the ASOIAF historical analogs on the internet. I've never heard an American analog like that. Very interesting indeed.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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I was about 50/50 after my first read, but on re-read, I'm about 90% certain that Aegon is a fake.|
Originally Posted by ApeChild
Is Vary's Aegon an imposter though? Is he really Rhaegar's son or is he a just some kid Vary's and Illyrio have groomed for the job?
There is Danny's dream/vision about what she calls a "Mummer's Dragon" which is mirrored by a warning of Quaith's about a "Mummer's Dragon" I've not made up my own mind just yet mind you. |
I believe he's actually the son of Illyrio Mopatis and his silver-haired second wife. I'd say there's also a chance that Aegon may have Blackfyre blood through his mother's side (I'd give it a 40% chance). Finally, I'd say there's some chance that Varys himself may come from Blackfyre stock, and could potentially be Illyrio's brother-in-law (15%).
Global name: @k26dp
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."