what AT's are in need of any help?


Airhammer

 

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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth View Post
1. Controllers do get OMG more damage when they get epic pools with AoE damage that gets containment. AoE immobilize, fiery rain, and fireball is incredibly different from what controllers have at lower levels.

2. And controllers do function as defenders on teams. Unless you have AoE at low levels damage your damage output does not really matter much. So a defender's damage over a controller just is not very important on teams. Whereas a controller's controls are very useful and noticeable. Defender buff/debuff numbers are invisible, so you don't really see that a defender's thermal shield is better than a controller's.
Part of the reason why I thought Defenders should have a 0.8 damage mod and Scrapper HPs. Noticeable increases, but still a different feel from controllers and masterminds.


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

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Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
Part of the reason why I thought Defenders should have a 0.8 damage mod and Scrapper HPs. Noticeable increases, but still a different feel from controllers and masterminds.
...any other suggestions? Like maybe removing Corruptors from the game entirly? 'cause let me assure you, Scourge will not make up for the Defenders having a higher base damage AND more hit points...

Seriously, what Defenders and Corruptors need the most is an identity seperate from each other. If you can work out a way to fix that issue, the overlap with Masterminds and Controllers will be easier to handle.


-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-

 

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defenders are for soloing
corrs are for teaming


 

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Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds View Post
...any other suggestions? Like maybe removing Corruptors from the game entirly? 'cause let me assure you, Scourge will not make up for the Defenders having a higher base damage AND more hit points...
Oh no! Corruptors should have a 0.9 damage mod and Blaster level HPs (with the Stalker cap). It is in the link in my sig.


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

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Actually for starters I think Defenders should have higher Control modifiers than any other class. They wouldn't get Overpower or Domination, but the actual duration should be a lot better. The existence of Storm and Trick Arrow particularly justify it in my mind.

I also think giving them a damage buff in GR was a mistake. What they needed, and IMO have always needed to make them actually fulfill the "best support" role is a reduction of the base recharge of their primary powers, by, say, 10 or 15%. The reason I am not more drawn to Defenders mainly has to due with the fact that for most of the big important buffs, how often you can cast is more important than how big it is. I guess you could tie that to team size or whatever if that still has to be a gameplay factor. Frce Field is the main set that doesn't work with this, but Force Field has some major issues anyway.

Also, Sonic Attack. There is no other way to say it: this blast set is broken on Defenders. Not because it is too good for the game per se, but because its so far out of line with other Defender blast sets.

While we're talking about blast sets, I think similar concepts would be a start for Blasters. Why does everything always have to be about just modifiers? I would start with Blasters by making all ranged Blasts minimum 80ft range on a Blaster, all AoEs 5ft bigger with a target cap of 20. They are supposed to be really good at blasting, so how come we never see it aside from just bigger numbers. Even if that's not the only buff they get, I feel like Blaster's need visual presence in the form of fireballs and lightning bolts no one else can match.


 

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I don't agree regarding control mods, but recharge - yes. That would go well with their inherent, getting end discounts as people are getting low on health - and it would also help with their damage output too.

Ehhhh regarding sonic attack - is it still top dog now that defenders have fire and beam rifle? Would like to see the numbers on that actually. I realize sonic helps team damage but still...


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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth View Post
1. Controllers do get OMG more damage when they get epic pools with AoE damage that gets containment. AoE immobilize, fiery rain, and fireball is incredibly different from what controllers have at lower levels.

2. And controllers do function as defenders on teams. Unless you have AoE at low levels damage your damage output does not really matter much. So a defender's damage over a controller just is not very important on teams. Whereas a controller's controls are very useful and noticeable. Defender buff/debuff numbers are invisible, so you don't really see that a defender's thermal shield is better than a controller's.
Controllers do not get Fiery Rain.

They can get Ice Storm alright but it's Dominators who get Fiery Rain (or Rain of Fire to give it its proper name)

Defenders used to have higher HP, but it got reduced at some point (i4? i5?)

As for giving Defenders higher Control values I'm not sure I see the point. There's few Defender sets with oodles of control (Trick Arrow has 4 powers, after than a few have 2) and quite a few with none at all and I'd rank 3 of those with none as needing something in the way of buffs : Sonic, Force Field and maybe Empathy.

One thing I thought of when this last came up was the concept of Vigilance acting as a token for the triggering of a Feedback effect when some powers from their primary were used.

For example if a Defender casts a single target heal on someone then Feedback would cause a small Regen buff on the Defender. If they cast an ally shield they'd get 25% of the buff to themselves. If they cast some control they'd get a Break Free effect on themselves for a few seconds.

It'd be a bit of work though, ideally you'd want 4-5 powers per set with Feedback added to it, but it would mean you could tweak each set & power specifically for what it does in terms of how it self-buffs the Defender.

Because Feedback is based on the inherent you could make the changes to powers knowing that although Corruptors, Masterminds and Controllers also have it in their secondaries it would never trigger / proc.

But it would be a sizable bit of work to implement and balance.


 

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My view of the relative need for 'help'. I am not interpreting help to mean 'buffs' necessarily.

1. Blasters - Only need help because everyone else is so Overpowered.

2. Peacebringers - Don't really need help. Some folks find them a pain to play (including me), but that doesn't mean the semi-AT is broken. If it got buffed (again) I wouldn't complain, but unless they are ready to do what's needed (reliable AoE) I wouldn't bother.

3. Scrappers - Flip out and kill isn't unique. Give this AT something that's unique and stop stealing everything they have and giving it to Stalkers.

4. Tankers - Need help only because you really don't need their tanking abilities. It's great to be immortal, but you don't need immortal for 95%+ of the content. Not sure what 'help' would look like. Probably giving them a better version of criticals.

Everyone else - No.


The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

 

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Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
It's great to be immortal, but you don't need immortal for 95%+ of the content.
To test that theory I jumped onto a bunch of pugs this weekend. It took only ten minutes for me to wish granite was available at 12, and twenty minutes for me to wish tylenol was a flavor of coca cola.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
To test that theory I jumped onto a bunch of pugs this weekend. It took only ten minutes for me to wish granite was available at 12, and twenty minutes for me to wish tylenol was a flavor of coca cola.
That's your fault for not grinding DFB and/or DIB like the devs intended.


The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

 

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Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post

3. Scrappers - Flip out and kill isn't unique. Give this AT something that's unique and stop stealing everything they have and giving it to Stalkers.
Seriously...what's with all this Stalker hate as of late?



 

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Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
3. Scrappers - Flip out and kill isn't unique. Give this AT something that's unique and stop stealing everything they have and giving it to Stalkers.
...I'm sorry; You need more than 'Flip Out and Kill?'

We do incredible amounts of damage without all the ancillary crap in the way. Sounds unique to me!


 

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I vote we remove Scrapper criticals entirely and bump their base damage up by another 0.07. Surely then Geko will be happy!


De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.

 

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Originally Posted by Bosstone View Post
I vote we remove Scrapper criticals entirely and bump their base damage up by another 0.07. Surely then Geko will be happy!
Because then Scrappers will have the only damage modifier not divisible by 0.05?


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Because then Scrappers will have the only damage modifier not divisible by 0.05?
Sure, let's go with that.


De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.

 

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
coca cola.
Ah-HA! I should have known.



.


 

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Because then Scrappers will have the only damage modifier not divisible by 0.05?
I won't feel that scrappers are truly balanced until their damage modifier is irrational. One half of Euler's number would suffice. Finally they'd do damage as transcendental as their adherents have always known they deserved.


 

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How's about Pi divided by 'i' and multiplied by 'e'


 

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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
No, I said "if you want" and proceeded to point out that if New Dawn wanted Tankers to be the 'leader AT', that leaders tend to be the big guns for their teams and not mediocre fighters only used for decoys.
.

Something that I should point out seeing as how I am a former comic book nut and RPer:

The leader is not the most powerful member of the team in every case. Many times he's the one who possesses the qualities that make the team better.

Superman doesn't count IMHO because he's designed to be the most powerful guy ever. However he has demonstrated a lack of tactical judgment before. He's used to working alone and it shows. Batman suffers from the same problem.

Cyclops is a good example of a leader. He is not the most powerful but everyone on the team respects his leadership ability. Time and again he's directed the team from the sidelines and thrown in the occasional blast for support.

Captain America is the pinnacle of leadership. Without true powers he leads a team that consists of star-traveling heroes, unstoppable brutes and deities. Not because he's the most powerful but because he understands what each team member's strengths and weaknesses are and melds them together. He creates a gestalt...something greater than the sum if its parts.

I like to play Tanks as the man in front but not necessarily the team leader. The two can be separate if you want. To me the idea of a team leader is someone who brings the team together in order to maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses. The Leadership Pool simulates this through game mechanics.


"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"

 

Posted

None of this was a problem before GR came out. Each side had distinctive ATs with distinctive roles and that was that. Then with GR you have heroic Brutes and MMs and villianous Tanks and the lines got very blurry.

However I don't think that it will be easy to separate them again. With Inventions the Devs have made Scrappers and Brutes that can be as survivable as Tanks. Those two already did more damage so if they had to give up a small part of it to get as tough as Tanks they were still ahead of the curve. However Tanks are unable to lean the other way. They have nothing to sacrifice in order to gain more damage or control.

The game is supposed to be about having fun and making choices. The player can normally choose to have a more aggressive build or a more defensive one. Some STs and powerset combinations allow you to come close to having it all and those are the current FotW on the Forums.

I think ALL of the powersets and ATs need a leveling pass first before anyone goes mucking about. Bring the less advantageous sets (like Dual Pistols) up to be closer in performance to the high-end sets like Fire and Dark. Fix some of the issues like Nuke crashing and the highly-skippable T9 powers on many defensive sets. Update some of the oldest sets (like Stone Armor) to make them something other then 'I play until I get T9 then respec the whole character'.

THEN you can start playing about with the ATs and Inherents and so forth.


"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"

 

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First and foremost I want to say this:

Everything concerning balance should be based around SO performance, not what's possible with IOs. Post-Incarnate can be tricky, since Incarnates combined with IOs have started to allow people to do crazy things, but I don't think saying something like 'Alphas fix tanks!' is completely okay either. I think every AT and powerset as well should stand on their own without Incarnates/IOs, and all should have room for growth, if not the exact same room.

Blasters:

On that note, I feel blasters as an AT, and many of their powersets, fail spectacularly. I think they need someone to personally go through and retailor how the sets for the AT works, seeing as they are pure assault and glass cannons, but many other ATs can come close, or even match, their damage without giving up that survivability.

I believe Arcana has talked before about how MORE DAMAGE is not quite the right answer for Blasters either, and while I feel -some- damage improvements should be given, I think old relics, like the full crash nukes, need to be adjusted. These adjustments should be proliferated, or again someone should go through and fine tune, for Defenders and Corrupters.

Defenders:

I do also feel Defenders get gimped on their damage unnecessarily, and think they should be given something more besides slightly more powerful buffs to compensate. I really liked the Feedback idea someone earlier mentioned.

Masterminds:

I think getting their AI revamped, and having their underperforming pets examined and fixed would be a biiiiig boost for Masterminds. I also feel that their APPs should be re-examined because they simply don't fit with the AT (personal opinion). I'm not sure what exactly they should get in place, but as an AT fully devoted to making their pets more powerful and the understanding that the APPs are supposed to grant the MMs something outside their normal scope, the fact is that Knockout Blow is somewhat silly on an AT that concentrates on making it's pets and everyone around it as powerful as possible and not themselves.

Beyond that, I believe there are quite a few underperforming sets, but not ATs. I would personally like to see Peacebringers made far more synergistic, and Warshades have their abilities retweaked with current tech to make it more player friendly (Such as the corpse bomb auto-targetting a corpse for you, or even letting you tab through corpses and giving a confirmation so you can plan it for optimal usage), as well as see the Forms get a buff that makes them just as viable as an all human build.


 

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Originally Posted by Comicsluvr View Post
None of this was a problem before GR came out. Each side had distinctive ATs with distinctive roles and that was that. Then with GR you have heroic Brutes and MMs and villianous Tanks and the lines got very blurry.
Not completely true. There's been complaints of overlap and toe-stepping between blasters and scrappers since the game came out (more or less). I may be recalling somewhat incorrectly, but wasn't one of the reasons Scrappers got crits in the first place because there was the mindset of why invite a scrapper when there's a blaster looking for a team too? It's pretty much continued to some degree or another since then really.

I mean they were both more or less just 'damage' as their team roles so it was bound to happen.


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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
I won't feel that scrappers are truly balanced until their damage modifier is irrational. One half of Euler's number would suffice. Finally they'd do damage as transcendental as their adherents have always known they deserved.
We could also make it a complex number, and have some of scrapper damage leak into other games and kill things there.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Comicsluvr View Post
None of this was a problem before GR came out. Each side had distinctive ATs with distinctive roles and that was that. Then with GR you have heroic Brutes and MMs and villianous Tanks and the lines got very blurry.
This has been a discussion point since the beginning of time. "City of Blasters", reducing the scrapper values of resistances, controller vs. defender, GDN, the ITF, and many more examples over the years. GR added more examples, but the concept/problem/issue is nothing new.


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.