what AT's are in need of any help?
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2012-04-10 14:42 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
/devices
Quote:
Too bad we can't customize the look of the powers and remove fading so tha... |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I rolled a TW/DA Scrapper once.
Then I deleted it when I stopped being able to even tell what attack set it had, let alone what the character even looked like. |
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Imo, the only buff blasters need is to somehow find a way to make snipes tactically relevant, perhaps by applying an additional damage buff depending on target distance (the further the target, the greater the damage buff, up to +100% perhaps)
IMO, blasters could use help, though I'll leave it to others to go into the details for now.
Pet AI needs to be reworked, and keep getting reworked untill it the devs nail it. Then when it inevitably gets broken again it'll need to be fixed in a timely manner.
A couple MM sets could use a balance pass, but with the exception of terrible AI the AT as a whole is pretty well off.
While I am satisfied with my tankers, based on what I've seen some people with brutes, and not considering myself a true expert on the AT, I'll go with the crowd saying they need something, although I'm not really sure what exactly.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
That...was a Herocon 09 exclusive easter egg. The powerset will not have doves associated with it.
Namely because you guys would want to color tint the damn doves, or make them hawks/ravens/flying sharks/etc and that's just a headache I do...not...want...to deal with. |
Quote:
Could you make an argument for tanker improvements that doesn't mention brutes? |
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
...
MM - apparently they need help as incarnates Tankers - may need help at 50+ when IO sets cap brute's def any other AT's need help at this point? I play doms, controllers, corrs, and tankers and they all seem to be good. |
For that matter, ANYONE can soft cap defense, so I guess that means EVERY AT needs a buff. Not sure what another AT having softcapped defense has to do with a tanker.
I am not a MM player, but I know they definitely are not hurting on any level of gameplay. And your statement makes zero sense: becoming an Incarnate is a means of making your character even more powerful than it was before. MMs could use some pet AI love in some case, but they don't really have issues.
Perhaps you should play more ATs so you can have a more rounded perspective.
PS- you contradicted yourself when you stated that tankers need help but then stated they are fine... which is it?
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
I will speak just from my personal experience and bias.
I generally wouldnt consider a blaster and havent run one for several years. The extra damage is not worth the lack of damage mitigation. Its true there are a few specific builds like Ice/Ice which have some slows and holds, but thats really the exception. For ranged damage a corrupter, defender, or dominator are all superior given that they all have something (buffs, debuff, and heals) in addition to damage.
However, I am not convinced the devs should spend a single minute doing anything to change this. People seem to generally get excited by new powersets then they are by revamped versions of an old archetype. Its also far easier to playtest a single powerset than it is to playtest a change to an entire archetype. Even if blasters got something outrageous like a 30% base damage boost I would probably not play one since I mainly solo and I still want mitigation/control over just damage. Of course IOs can be used to help with this, but Id rather start with a character that already has mitigation.
I also want to point out an interesting contradiction which runs through this thread. People simultaneously want the archetypes to be balanced but also feel different. These are both desirably goals but usually they work against each other. The easiest way to balance classes is to make them more similar. If blaster got mezz protection or more debuffs they we would complain they felt too much like corrupters.
Quote:
That is a great parody of a condescending player who did not read the post he is responding to. You really nailed it. |
Originally Posted by magikwand
Could you make an argument for tanker improvements that doesn't mention brutes?
For that matter, ANYONE can soft cap defense, so I guess that means EVERY AT needs a buff. Not sure what another AT having softcapped defense has to do with a tanker. I am not a MM player, but I know they definitely are not hurting on any level of gameplay. And your statement makes zero sense: becoming an Incarnate is a means of making your character even more powerful than it was before. MMs could use some pet AI love in some case, but they don't really have issues. Perhaps you should play more ATs so you can have a more rounded perspective. PS- you contradicted yourself when you stated that tankers need help but then stated they are fine... which is it? |
* The claiming contradiction by dropping "may" and "seem" and turning statements into absolutes. Made ever funnier by having done the exact thing you complained about - saying an AT (MM's) has problems but then saying they don't have issues.
* The specious idea that being more powerful means powerful enough.
* The inane recommendation that a poster asking for people's perspective should get more perspective.
* The use of ALL CAPS to emphasize words the poster thinks is important - but really you should have had MORE all caps for GREATER emphasis.
Thank you for brightening my day. Sometimes I think everyone on the boards is being serious.
Quote:
Instead of slinging more poo- I will be mature and apologize for the cutting tone of my earlier message. I hope you accept that. Sorry for the attack.|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
That is a great parody of a condescending player who did not read the post he is responding to. You really nailed it.
* The claiming contradiction by dropping "may" and "seem" and turning statements into absolutes. Made ever funnier by having done the exact thing you complained about - saying an AT (MM's) has problems but then saying they don't have issues. * The specious idea that being more powerful means powerful enough. * The inane recommendation that a poster asking for people's perspective should get more perspective. * The use of ALL CAPS to emphasize words the poster thinks is important - but really you should have had MORE all caps for GREATER emphasis. Thank you for brightening my day. Sometimes I think everyone on the boards is being serious. |
Yes, I did say that MMs could use some Pet AI love. No, that does not mean I consider them to have issues. Sorry if it wasn't clear in my original post.
And yes- if you don't play all ATs then perhaps you should play them to gather your own perspective. I stand by that statement. Not from a disrespectful standpoint, but from the standpoint of seeing for yourself what (if any) balance problems exist in the game.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
Kheldians need help? After the buff Peacebringers got? Admittedly I preferred Solar Flare to be a Footstomp rather than a Hand Clap, but that's just because Aesthetically I'm a -huge- fan of Footstomp. But really, IMO Kheldians don't need much help.
I've got a Peacebringer with Perma-Hasten, Perma-Lightform, and Perma-Inner Light. Hell, the crash at the end of Lightform can wind up -healing- me if I've been smacked around a bit.
Scrappers do NOT need help. Yes, they don't bring anything particularly unique to the table, but their performance is always solid and consistent, which makes them my favorite AT ever. One of the times that being 'The Mario' is a actually an advantage. I'm not sure there's any other AT with such reliable consistency in their output.
Masterminds do need AI-fixes. Rather badly too. As far as specific primaries? Mercs do need some help (almost entirely in Spec-Ops). Ninjas? I don't think so. They're squishy, sure, but good lord their DPS output?
As far as other ATs? I don't think anyone else needs help really.
Okay, I would argue that Kheldians dont need any help in terms of power. Usually the person saying that really means Warshades are more powerful than Peacebringers which might be true under the right circumstances but is not the same thing.
However, Khelds have always had a kind of strange place in how the game works and what it means to play one. Consider this--If you choose the archetype Blaster than your hero could be similar to many well-known characters such as the Human Torch, Iceman, or Nick Fury. But if you choose Kheldian then you are similar to . . . who exactly? What comic book character is possessed by an alien, has superpowers, and can change form? Basically nobody.
As a result, Kheldians dont really fit with the other archetypes. They are closer to a traditional class in an RPG then they are to a general archetype that can be used for many different characters.
The VEATs of Widow and Soldier are similar in that its hard to imagine yourself as being anything besides a former member of Arachnos. But since that villain group is featured throughout the gameworld I always found it easier to imagine yourself a member of that group than a human merged with an alien.
Blasters need help more than any of the other ATs.
I can't speak for it myself, since I've never played any in incarnate content, but my wife says controllers and doms need help in iTrials. Though to me it seems like it's less a problem with the classes, and more a problem with the fact that so many of the enemies are immune to mez.
That's really it. No one else NEEDS help.
Quote:
I'm with you. The current version is too much like fury for my taste.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
If I said it once I'll say it a billion times..
I was a damn sight more happier with Defiance 1. Defiance 2 is just a bit, it's a bit like having a meatball in the fruitbowl. So I am going with the idea of Blasters getting looked at. |
The original version was unique and quite a bit of fun. Sure, it promoted being on the edge of death, but it was a blast!!!!!
"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator
Quote:
Oh! That probably explains it. Thanks. |
Originally Posted by Vimes_NA
When CoH first came out dark embrace, murky cloud, and obsidian shield didn't stack. Fear made enemies run away instead of cowering, and all dark armors toggles cost maybe 33% more to run than the equivalent in other sets. It was legitimately bad then (except against psi enemies, where it rocked), though not as bad as most thought, particularly when you paired it with dark melee to help with end management. I remember somebody came up with the idea of 6 slotting whirlwind with recharge (this was before ED) so we could use it to pulse knockdown, which helped a lot
 .*shrug* I guess some people heard that it was bad then and just latched onto the idea. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Then I deleted it when I stopped being able to even tell what attack set it had, let alone what the character even looked like.
|
Playing CoH with Gestures
In my opinion blasters and masterminds need the most help
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Quote:
Opposite for me. Defiance 1.0 (along with ED and all the other changes around that time) lead to me quitting for several months, and not playing blasters for any more than a couple hours a month for years after my return due to the sour taste it left.|
Originally Posted by _Ail_
I'm with you. The current version is too much like fury for my taste.
The original version was unique and quite a bit of fun. Sure, it promoted being on the edge of death, but it was a blast!!!!! |
And kinda tired atm and forgetting how to mulit-quote right now, but in response to Issen:
While I agree that mercs seem to need a look the most of the MM primaries, I feel ninja's are too squishy and it can be rather hard to leveage thier damage. Although, my main ninja/ MM is /posion, so that doesn't do a whole lot in aiding thier survivability.
As for other sets, I think their pet problems are mostly related to the dumb AI, so it's hard to say if any of others would also need a balance check after the more pressing issue of pet AI for all gets looked at
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
That...was a Herocon 09 exclusive easter egg. The powerset will not have doves associated with it.
Namely because you guys would want to color tint the damn doves, or make them hawks/ravens/flying sharks/etc and that's just a headache I do...not...want...to deal with. |
I think archtypes dont really need help more then specifc power sets.
but if it where me i would work on Corruptors and Defenders those are serioulsy in need of help....they are like the side kick archtypes....
the characters the main villains ridicule becasue as master healers they cant heal themselves or they can create huge blasts of energy that do absolutely nothing but singe the enemy....or better still the ones who if things go wrong can only watch helplessly as their team dies.
I mean i dont want to sound too mean or critical....but personaly out of all the defenders and corruptors i have played over the years I never felt like i was really making a big difference on my teams....i mean i could see the effect i had when i play a controller or blaster or tank....but just never felt it with corruptors or defenders.
I mean sure when i buff botted on one character there was one mission...but out of 100's of missions...i dont think i could ever really defend myself...nor actualy stop a team wipe...i could with other characters...but not with a defender or corruptor....
Its like the sniper shots doing at the top 150 damage when i play a blaster i do 500...i heal someone for 300 damage they use their own heal power for 500.
I put shields on a group start getting shot at and realize i dont have any personal defense.
Also on every corruptor and defender i tend to die alot more then any other archtype....
And from everyone i talked to....that seams to be normal....and that is just Frustrating and wrong.
So maybe i am just biased, but i think the numbers speak for themselves on this.
Quote:
I thought my Dark Miasma and Time Manip Defenders/Corrs defended themselves quite well (except for a mez that might get through if my character wasnt hovering).|
Originally Posted by PsychicKitty
I think archtypes dont really need help more then specifc power sets.
but if it where me i would work on Corruptors and Defenders those are serioulsy in need of help....they are like the side kick archtypes.... the characters the main villains ridicule becasue as master healers they cant heal themselves or they can create huge blasts of energy that do absolutely nothing but singe the enemy....or better still the ones who if things go wrong can only watch helplessly as their team dies. I mean i dont want to sound too mean or critical....but personaly out of all the defenders and corruptors i have played over the years I never felt like i was really making a big difference on my teams....i mean i could see the effect i had when i play a controller or blaster or tank....but just never felt it with corruptors or defenders. I mean sure when i buff botted on one character there was one mission...but out of 100's of missions...i dont think i could ever really defend myself...nor actualy stop a team wipe...i could with other characters...but not with a defender or corruptor.... Its like the sniper shots doing at the top 150 damage when i play a blaster i do 500...i heal someone for 300 damage they use their own heal power for 500. I put shields on a group start getting shot at and realize i dont have any personal defense. Also on every corruptor and defender i tend to die alot more then any other archtype.... And from everyone i talked to....that seams to be normal....and that is just Frustrating and wrong. So maybe i am just biased, but i think the numbers speak for themselves on this. |
The Dark Miasma felt like it had more of an impact for the team than the Time Manip in terms of damage though, as you can notice a difference when you hit the hard targets with the better -regen.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
Yeah, Tanks aren't allowed to use the same bathrooms or water fountains, and aren't even allowed in the front of the bus like Brutes; it's terrible. |
Originally Posted by Zyphoid
As much as we all enjoy saying JB is crazy, fact is he is right in a lot of ways about how tanks are treated compared to Brutes. It is BS.
|
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
So we're all agreed. What really needs improving is Dual Pistols! MORE DAMAGE, little tweaking of animations! \o/
<_<;;
What?!
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
Damage, sure.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
So we're all agreed. What really needs improving is Dual Pistols! MORE DAMAGE, little tweaking of animations! \o/
<_<;; What?! |
Animation tweaks...not so sure.
I don't think you can "tweak" the animations to cut down on them. Only attack would be Piercing Shot, and you could possibly shorten it by not having the character throw the guns so high into the air.
Quote:
I only say tweaking of animations, because I was under the impression they (the devs) said they could tweak them just a little already.|
Originally Posted by Issen
Damage, sure.
Animation tweaks...not so sure. I don't think you can "tweak" the animations to cut down on them. Only attack would be Piercing Shot, and you could possibly shorten it by not having the character throw the guns so high into the air. |
But I think they just need to up the damage! Maybe just a straight 16.5%? Just a quick thought on if the set had AIM and it was up 1/3 of the time.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
This argument seems flawed.
|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
Tankers - may need help at 50+ when IO sets cap brute's def
|
Quote:
The other side to that is that almost nothing lives long enough for most control to be useful. On any trial, you can reasonably expect any group that contains minions and LTs to be nuked out of existence long before they get to attack. I think Confusion might be the only widely useful control mechanic outside of the prisoners phase of the BAF, and that's actually because there's still some utility to confusing a boss into nuking an otherwise un-aggroed group before the wall of Judgments hits it.|
Originally Posted by firespray
[M]y wife says controllers and doms need help in iTrials. Though to me it seems like it's less a problem with the classes, and more a problem with the fact that so many of the enemies are immune to mez.
|
Defenders also sort of lose their place in the high level game. At some point, the extra value from defender heals or debuffs just isn't as interesting to anybody as the fact that there are (de)buffs to be had, and at least Controllers have controls and containment and at least Corrupters have Scourge to use on hard targets. Whenever I play on a level 50 Defender I find myself wishing I had rolled a Controller or Corrupter instead. When I'm on a Controller or Corrupter I never find myself thinking that I wish I had 10% better buffs.
Things I hate: Anime. PvP. Lying MMO Developers. Outleveling content. Manga. ED. Comic Store Employees. Anime.
Quote:
I pointed this out in my admittedly hostile post earlier. Hopefully the OP will come back and answer this since another poster pointed it out in a more reasonable manner.
|
Originally Posted by Greyhame
This argument seems flawed.
|
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
The fact that MMs would be noticeably stronger if the pet AI was fixed is a problem, and shouldn't be ignored. A fixed Pet AI could absolutely be the focused bug-fix of an issue, and both masterminds and the game would be better for it.