what AT's are in need of any help?
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2012-04-10 14:42 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
If there is an AT that I feel needs help above all others, it would be Blasters. For all their attempts at tweaks and changes to the AT, they are still left behind. Ranged attacks used to be considered a form of defense, but now most if not every enemy has a ranged attack.
While this may not be a new approach, I have always liked the "glass-cannon" concept of Blasters, so my suggestion falls on the offensive end. They should have the highest damage mods at any range regardless of what other perks or transformations other ATs may get (Nova, I am looking at you). I believe Blasters are 1.125 for ranged and 1.0 for melee. I would not mind seeing Blasters get 1.25 for both mods. Next, raise their damage cap an additional 100% and increase the +damage on their augmenting powers (Aim, Build-Up, Soul Drain, etc.). For what they give up in survivability tools next to the ATs with a set dedicated to mitigation, Blasters should be the undisputed champions of damage, at least when comparing powersets with similar effect (such as a ST-focused blast set versus a ST-focused melee set).
Aside from that, I would personally like to see:
Defenders get better buff/debuff mods versus Controllers and Corruptors. I was reading around and noted that a poster mentioned that playing his Defender on teams, while safe and contributing greatly, would consider and contemplate how he would rather be playing as a Controller or Corruptor and possibly be contributing more but never the reverse just for "10% better buffs." I agree with that sentiment. Like Blasters should have far and away the best damage, Defenders should have the best buffs/debuffs. I am sure I am missing something about the general awesomeness of Defenders, but the only draw I see with Defenders is the level-availability of said buffs.
Peacebringers get better synergy in their powers (I personally would give up one of on my favorite Scrappers if I could get an enhancement or some other method of turning my PB's KB into KD). Definitely a quality-of-life change that would greatly increase (my) enjoyment of the AT and might generally help reduce the perceived or actual power gap between Peacebringers and Warshades.
Scrappers get something unique in their inherent. I do (and would) still enjoy them otherwise, though. Ditto for Tankers (although their inherent was not taken whole-hog, improved and then given to someone else).
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This appears to be a rather self-contradictory set of observations.
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Originally Posted by PunkRolex
The other side to that is that almost nothing lives long enough for most control to be useful. On any trial, you can reasonably expect any group that contains minions and LTs to be nuked out of existence long before they get to attack. I think Confusion might be the only widely useful control mechanic outside of the prisoners phase of the BAF, and that's actually because there's still some utility to confusing a boss into nuking an otherwise un-aggroed group before the wall of Judgments hits it.
Defenders also sort of lose their place in the high level game. At some point, the extra value from defender heals or debuffs just isn't as interesting to anybody as the fact that there are (de)buffs to be had, and at least Controllers have controls and containment and at least Corrupters have Scourge to use on hard targets. Whenever I play on a level 50 Defender I find myself wishing I had rolled a Controller or Corrupter instead. When I'm on a Controller or Corrupter I never find myself thinking that I wish I had 10% better buffs. |
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Tankers - may need help at 50+ when IO sets cap brute's def
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Probably because it isn't an argument. To make it an argument|
Originally Posted by Greyhame
This argument seems flawed.
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1. Brutes hold aggro as well as tankers
2. Brutes do more damage than tankers
3. Brutes are only worse than tankers at mitigating damage
4. With IO sets capping a brute's defense they mitigate damage as well as tankers or at least as well as tankers do for practical purposes.
5. Therefore when Brutes use IO sets they make tankers redundant and inferior.
The IO set capping def does not cause this problem with other AT's because they do not hold aggro and even with soft capped def do not mitigate damage as well.
given that I never play at high levels this is not an issue for me. My tanker is much sturdier than brute in the 10's and 20's where I play. But certain people have complained about this issue.
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The highlighted is a false premise, or at the very least, a premise that cites no evidence to support it. |
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
Probably because it isn't an argument. To make it an argument
1. Brutes hold aggro as well as tankers 2. Brutes do more damage than tankers 3. Brutes are only worse than tankers at mitigating damage 4. With IO sets capping a brute's defense they mitigate damage as well as tankers or at least as well as tankers do for practical purposes. 5. Therefore when Brutes use IO sets they make tankers redundant and inferior. |
Therefore the conclusion is not supported by the argument being made.
Also, I'd like to note that your third premise is worded in such a way as to bring about a conclusion. That is to say, it uses the "begging the question" logical fallacy. It should be worded "Tankers mitigate damage better than Brutes."
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I am objecting to the attitude that tanks need a buff because brutes are good. The entire viewpoint is warped.|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
... given that I never play at high levels this is not an issue for me. My tanker is much sturdier than brute in the 10's and 20's where I play. But certain people have complained about this issue. |
Also, given the admission above and the tone of several of your previous posts in this thread, I wonder at your reasons for creating this topic.
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The assertion that Brutes hold aggro as well as Tankers is also weak.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
The highlighted is a false premise, or at the very least, a premise that cites no evidence to support it.
Therefore the conclusion is not supported by the argument being made. Also, I'd like to note that your third premise is worded in such a way as to bring about a conclusion. That is to say, it uses the "begging the question" logical fallacy. It should be worded "Tankers mitigate damage better than Brutes." |
I think it is fair to say that when you have four archetypes with a similar combination of powersets - melee offense and self damage mitigation - you're going to have a significant amount of functionality overlap and archetype collisions. That was a problem when there were only Tankers and Scrappers, much less Brutes and Stalkers. Comparisons are likely to blur the distinctions between them.
To the extent that ideally there should be as much functional distance between those four archetypes, there's every reason to believe that adding features to tankers that distinguish them from brutes would generally be a good thing from a gameplay design perspective. But any argument that attempts to highlight the strengths of one of them (say, Brute damage) while dismissing the strengths of the other (say, Tanker damage mitigation or aggro generation ability) is not going to be convincing. It probably also misses the point to gameplay differentiation in the first place.
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A scrapper not using confront can steal aggro from a tank not using taunt.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The assertion that Brutes hold aggro as well as Tankers is also weak.
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Even using taunt, I've had scrappers steal aggro if I didn't taunt frequently enough. Never in less than the recharge of taunt, but definitely less than the duration.
Brutes will typically do more damage than tanks (as well they should), and they have the same threat modifier and same taunt magnitude in taunt auras and attacks.
I don't see why the assertion is weak.
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I'm not sure I agree with this. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The assertion that Brutes hold aggro as well as Tankers is also weak.
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Damage is a part of the threat formula, and everything else is equal when it comes to Tanks and Brutes. Against a single target, I'm pretty sure a Brute will get the aggro every time as long as the powersets are equal. Bruising would push it back in Tank favor, but I think the technical caster for that power is the target, not the tank.
Against an actual crowd, though, Gauntlet is far better for keeping all the aggro. That's why I don't disagree. I'm just not sure I agree.
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Tankers mitigate damage better than Brutes.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
It should be worded "Tankers mitigate damage better than Brutes."
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But, especially with IOs and Incarnate powers, Brutes can mitigate damage so well that it doesn't really matter that they mitigate it worse than Tankers. Surviving consistently means you are mitigating enough damage; as much as you need to. Having more than that is largely pointless in that situation.
If melee ATs have their survivability balanced against the damage they deal, then it becomes a bit unfair when you allow all of them to be safer relative to the enemies in the game (like with level shifts, Destiny buffs and Hybrid Melee) yet maintain the same damage differences relative to each other.
It becomes most unfair to the AT balanced on the far survival end of the spectrum that gives up damage in order to do things like stand up to hazard sized spawns when ATs with better damage than them can cap their Defense with IOs, grab Destiny buffs and Hybrid Melee and then beat those hazard spawns while retaining superior damage.
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Because it would imply gauntlet does nothing.
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Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
A scrapper not using confront can steal aggro from a tank not using taunt.
Even using taunt, I've had scrappers steal aggro if I didn't taunt frequently enough. Never in less than the recharge of taunt, but definitely less than the duration. Brutes will typically do more damage than tanks (as well they should), and they have the same threat modifier and same taunt magnitude in taunt auras and attacks. I don't see why the assertion is weak. |
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Against a single target, it does nothing.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Because it would imply gauntlet does nothing.
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Edit: Nothing a brute single target attacks don't do just as well against a target, that is. I mean, obviously it still taunts.
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Which would be relevant in the context of the statement "Brutes hold aggro against a single target as well as Tankers do." Against the more general statement, its lack of relevance without extremely strong evidence to support it makes the assertion lack foundation, which is the definition of a weak statement.
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Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
Against a single target, it does nothing.
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Fair enough. I suppose I do tend to think about aggro in single target terms, because the only way i tend to know who has aggro is to see what direction an enemy is facing.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Which would be relevant in the context of the statement "Brutes hold aggro against a single target as well as Tankers do." Against the more general statement, its lack of relevance without extremely strong evidence to support it makes the assertion lack foundation, which is the definition of a weak statement.
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Brutes deal more damage than Tanks.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Tankers mitigate damage better than Brutes.
But, especially with IOs and Incarnate powers, Brutes can mitigate damage so well that it doesn't really matter that they mitigate it worse than Tankers. Surviving consistently means you are mitigating enough damage; as much as you need to. Having more than that is largely pointless in that situation. If melee ATs have their survivability balanced against the damage they deal, then it becomes a bit unfair when you allow all of them to be safer relative to the enemies in the game (like with level shifts, Destiny buffs and Hybrid Melee) yet maintain the same damage differences relative to each other. It becomes most unfair to the AT balanced on the far survival end of the spectrum that gives up damage in order to do things like stand up to hazard sized spawns when ATs with better damage than them can cap their Defense with IOs, grab Destiny buffs and Hybrid Melee and then beat those hazard spawns while retaining superior damage. . |
But, especially with IOs and Incarnate powers, Tanks can deal damage so well that it doesn't really matter that they do it worse than Brutes. Defeating things consistently means you are dealing enough damage; as much as you need to. Having more than that is largely pointless in that situation.
If melee ATs have their damage balanced against their survival, then it becomes a bit unfair when you allow all of them to throw nukes and have equal DoT procs on all their attacks (like with level shifts, Judgement and Interface Powers and Hybrid Melee) yet maintain the damage mitigation differences relative to each other.
It becomes most unfair to the AT balanced on the far damage dealing end of the spectrum that gives up survival in order to do things like deal a few more points of damage that likely get wasted on overkill, grab Judgement and Reactive Interface and then beat those hazard spawns while retaining superior survivability.
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I don't think it's appropriate to discuss the mitigation potentials of Hybrid Melee at current. We should first see what they decide to launch it like.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Hybrid Melee and then beat those hazard spawns while retaining superior damage.
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That is incorrect. Defeating things faster means you can complete the mission faster, and thus complete more missions in a given time. You will also level faster, gain inf faster, etc.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Defeating things consistently means you are dealing enough damage; as much as you need to. Having more than that is largely pointless in that situation.
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| If melee ATs have their damage balanced against their survival, then it becomes a bit unfair when you allow all of them to throw nukes and have equal DoT procs on all their attacks (like with level shifts, Judgement and Interface Powers and Hybrid Melee) yet maintain the damage mitigation differences relative to each other. |
It doesn't work when you flip it around because survival relative to the enemies is what matters when it comes to survivability.
If two ATs are faceplanting to the same thing, does it really matter once has 10% more HP than the other? Conversely, if both are shrugging off the damage to the same thing, does it matter that one has twice the HP?
Once consistent survival is reached and you're above the immortality line for that situation, more survival than that really doesn't help. The returns diminish sharply. Damage doesn't quite work like that because (for the purpose of this comparison) the line where more of it becomes redundant is much higher (when all of your attacks can one shot everything, including Hamidon).
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A fair point, but at this point in time, Hybrid exists in a specific form. Until we know it has changed otherwise, this is the only way to discuss it. It's germane to the point, after all, so I think it should enter into the discussion. Everyone understands that it could change before launch, but that shouldn't stop us from speculating based on how it is now. For all we know, Blasters and Khelds could get massive buffs and the devs bake them a cake in issue 30. So, we should stop discussing how things are for them based on today's status quo?|
Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
I don't think it's appropriate to discuss the mitigation potentials of Hybrid Melee at current. We should first see what they decide to launch it like.
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Today's status quo does not involve Hybrid Melee whatsoever.
We know what it could potentially be, but, as you said, blasters and kheldians could potentially get massive buffs.
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It might, but my first point was specifically addressing the value of itrial controls and my second referred to more general "high level" play, a considerably larger subset the game's content.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
This appears to be a rather self-contradictory set of observations.
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This is incorrect. Interface and Judgement deal the same damage for everybody. In fact, for Tanks, they deal more thanks to bruising.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
If they're all getting nukes and Interface procs, their damage dealing relative to each other is staying pretty much the same.
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If you have a Brute doing 200 DPS and a tank doing 150 DPS and increase both by the same number (Let's say 50), you actually bring them closer together. They're still 50 DPS apart, but 50 DPS is smaller compared to 250 than when compared to 200.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
If two ATs are faceplanting to the same thing, does it really matter once has 10% more HP than the other? Conversely, if both are shrugging off the damage to the same thing, does it matter that one has twice the HP?
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To the vast majority of players and missions, Tanks survive better than Brutes and Brutes deal more damage. You have yet to prove that this survivability edge is as trivial as you mention. I have high end Tanks and Brutes. I notice the survivability difference.
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Pretty sure you're not going to take the time to tap all the foes in a spawn with your T1 before you Judgement them. Even taking the time to Bruise one isn't worth it.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
In fact, for Tanks, they deal more thanks to bruising.
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And with Interface, again it's only single targets. In the overall scheme with a large spawn, it's trivial.
Also, I'll even give you a freebee. You missed Lore. Bruising helps Lore. But if I wanted awesome pets that damaged more than me, I would have rolled a Mastermind.
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| If you have a Brute doing 200 DPS and a tank doing 150 DPS and increase both by the same number (Let's say 50), you actually bring them closer together. They're still 50 DPS apart, but 50 DPS is smaller compared to 250 than when compared to 200. |
You really should have used Scrappers for your example. :\
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| Conversely, if two ATs are defeating things in three attacks, does it matter that the Brute spent a ton of damage on overkill? |
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| To the vast majority of players and missions, Tanks survive better than Brutes and Brutes deal more damage. |
Right now on Beta I've got a Brute that finished DA on +4x8. Hybrid boosts his damage through the roof and I've also got the option to go for Hybrid Melee.
My Tanker, who also ran DA on +4x8, has less damage than my Brute, is at the cap and has no way to get any more substantially. You can call it an edge case if you want, but I know far too many people with Brutes who can do the same.
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Oh boy, I took my lvl 36 Beast/Time to DA to join with my friends. Yes, I know I am under level but man, the mobs in DA seem to have a lot of "auto hit aoe damage" like earth quakes or lightning attacks. My Beast pets melt faster than butter!!! lol Are those auto hit or they just have very high accuracy? I know I don't have good defense yet but beast pets are all melee and they are such easy target to get aoe to death. |
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
i mostly agree with this. For Masterminds i've heard that Beast Mastery can also be a bit underpowered in the late game, but i just made one yesterday so i don't really have a personal opinion on it yet.
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Just want to point out Beast's weaknesses...
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I must be the only person who likes to team with Tanker more than Brute. lol
I think most Tankers taunt better. They care more about teammates' survival = better teammate in my opinion.
Brutes tend to care more about generating and keeping Fury and run ahead most of the time.
I also don't think Tanker's damage is that bad. It's not the highest but it's not the bottom of the barrel. I say this because you deal no damage if you are dead and Tankers survive the best of all.
To give you an example, a Corr and a Brute. Corr supports Brute while Brute holding and attacking. I find that when I try to support Brute, I tend to spend more time which translate into me spending LESS time on attacking. On the other hand, most Tankers can survive on their own which means I have more time to blast. Of course this varies a lot from sets to sets but in general, Tanker's superiority in survival means the supporting teammates have more time to focus on offense rather than defense (and if you are a Defender who doesn't blast, that's your fault). The contribution of Tanker is less "tangible" for sure but to say they are useless at high level is a joke?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I think this is the takeaway.|
Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
We know what it could potentially be, but, as you said, blasters and kheldians could potentially get massive buffs.
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there seems to be no real argument that blasters could use help
and there seems to be no real argument that khelds alternate forms could use help especially at the high levels
the argument over tankers comes down to: is the damage mitigation of brutes enough to make them as good as tankers? And I suspect that largely comes down to how many purples you have - which the game is explicitly not balanced around, and how much each player feels is enough.
<_<;;
What?!
Which of course would improve their damage with Incendiary.
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