what AT's are in need of any help?


Airhammer

 

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Masterminds.

Ever since demons they have desperately needed an AI fix.


 

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Originally Posted by New Dawn View Post
Or do mediocre players like to pin the problem on these sets?
No, it's the sets. Those three need a revamp.

Trick Arrow needs a fast recharge soft control Alpha absorb power that actually works.

Ice Control needs a lot of tweaks so they set can be actually safe and effective.

Poison needs a lot of tweaks as well...especially the T9.

Dominators- I think they need a small tweak when it comes to their control values. That's it. They are almost perfect the way they are now.

Bane- I think Banes need something to cover their vulnerability...once Defense fails they are sitting ducks. Maybe they should get a chance for high regen if they Stack 4 attacks...like Assasin's Focus. I'm just throwing stuff out there.

Khelds- They need more slots! :3



 

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I'll place order of priority:
1. Blasters

For me, this entire AT is still falling behind other ATs. After two rounds of Defiance, it's still not there.

I still think that Defiance shouldn't have been about damage, but about mez protection. Keep attacking to stack Defiance buffs to make you fight through mez attacks.

Then to resolve the damage issue, adjust the base ranged damage mods upward a bit.

Be sure to all the melee attacks have short duration soft or hard control components to them.

Now that new tech is available, 3 stacks of defiance allows snipes to have a new, uninterruptable short animation allowing them to be used in combat (that and snipes need their current dpa adjusted upward). And all nukes should be crashless.

2. Tankers

I'm of the opinion that Tankers should have a mechanical change that helps differentiate their playstyle from the other melee ATs. There has been quite a few times that I've had to explain to new players that made Tanks how Bruising works. how Guantlet works, and what a "taunt aura" is.

Besides reading into the powers, which it seems people don't regularly do, there just wasn't any indicator to players that showed them what's going on with these effects. With Scrappers you have crits, Stalkers you had hide, now new tech which changed their playstyle - with crits, Brutes you see your Fury bar move when you're attacked and are attacking and see your damage go up. Tankers? Those new players only noticed how "tough" they were as in the ability to withstand damage. That and it took too long for aoes attacks

3. Master Minds: it's true Pet AI needs work. However, the AT over all works well. Sure there's some issues with some sets in comparison to others, this occurs within every AT. But over all, the AT works well.

If and when pet AI does get looked into, it's something that probably would take a long time because not only would it affect MMs, but every pet in the game, player and npc alike. Not to mention probably also deal with much of the reguar mob AI as well.

While to many this sounds like something that'd be worth looking into, consider that over all, the game, and those ATs that use pets are functional. Not perfect, but functional.

Once all that is done, or perhaps while that's being done, then some other powersets that need adjusting can occur.

That's were you get TA and Mercs fixed. Those aren't necessarily AT issues, but powerset issues.


 

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I don't think that the MM pets Ai is a hard fix to be honest Mercs suffer from small issues the same for Ninjas.

Give Ninjas the Jack Frost/Animate Stone Treatment.

Mercs...whew boy lmao!

They use the old AR attacks and animations. Give them the updated AR animations. Make the medic ranged ONLY he needs a Pbaoe heal...God...

Ok, I need to go to bed because I could be here all night talking about the horrors of playing a Merc MM.



 

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Originally Posted by Tater Todd View Post

Dominators- I think they need a small tweak when it comes to their control values. That's it. They are almost perfect the way they are now.
I wouldn't alter doms' control values; the only time I find them inadequate is pre-20. Once SOs open up they start performing sufficiently to my taste. However, I would alter the debuff values for some dom sets. Looking at Ice in particular, it takes a hit on doms with the lower debuff values and Ice's general lack of hard control. It takes a second hit by lacking powers that greatly benefit from Domination. If a control set is built around using debuffs for soft control then it needs to be their for doms as well as controllers.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tater Todd View Post
I don't think that the MM pets Ai is a hard fix to be honest Mercs suffer from small issues the same for Ninjas.

Give Ninjas the Jack Frost/Animate Stone Treatment.

Mercs...whew boy lmao!

They use the old AR attacks and animations. Give them the updated AR animations. Make the medic ranged ONLY he needs a Pbaoe heal...God...

Ok, I need to go to bed because I could be here all night talking about the horrors of playing a Merc MM.
I'll do it for you :] Bonus: Ninjas, beasts, necro.


One of the main problems with a lot of sets is the lack of a place to put RIP IOs. So many of my suggestions incorporate this.

With Ninjas I think that, as well as giving a tad more survivability, their T7 power should be changed. Perhaps it is just because I always pair nins with an active secondary, but I stop using Smoke Flash in the mid 20's. It costs too much endurance. You could conceivably give them something like Gang War instead, with a few alterations. For instance- ninjas strike from the shadows, yes? Then make the ninjas that appear have Hidden on, and give them only melee attacks. This way, they all strike out with a critical at the same time. Have them stick around about 2/3 the time of the Gang War thugs. Give them higher damage but lower health. In this way, not only do Ninjas gain a place to put more of those pet uniques, but they further cement their place as the MM damage kings.

Well that's my first idea for them, my second is this: Giving each ninja the inherent Conservation of Ninjitsu, which works thusly: In any martial arts fight, each side has only a finite amount of ninjitsu in a given encounter. Therefore, one ninja is death incarnate, while an army is nothing but cannon fodder. So give all the ninjas a weakened Vengeance ability that goes off when they die, much like Nemesis lieutenants. The fewer the ninjas remaining, the harder they are to kill and the harder they hit. This effectively turns their squishiness into a weapon.

Installing one or both of these suggestions would make Ninjas an actual force to be reckoned with, as they should be. If both, then of course the extra T7 ninjas should NOT have the vengeance power. Also, make the Oni better at prioritizing, either take away his sword or teach him to use it with one hand and throw fire with the other.

For Mercenaries, Serum is almost universally regarded as suckish. I've personally never tried Mercs so can't comment. However, here be an idea to replace it: Air Strike. You hear a plane fly overhead and bombs drop on parachutes. Each bomb acts like a pseudo-pet so you can slot RIP IOs in it. The bombs do high damage and knockdown, so provides some mitigation too. They would take a bit of time reaching the ground, and would probably be used like Seeker Drones- and alpha absorber. Make the Soldier's Full Auto a wider cone. Shorten the recharge on all of Spec Ops' support abilities by a ton. Take Flash Bang down to 35 seconds and increase the stun. Change Rifle Butt to the ranged stun in Assault Rifle so they run in less. Tear Gas should have a recharge of ~60 seconds and the damage debuff should last the same. Increase the damage on SCAR Snipe. Increase the Immob on Web Grenade so it can be perma without enhancements. If these guys are supposed to be the support then make them actually be support! Also, you should probably change all of the knockback to knockdown, the scatter really hurts damage. Most of their AoE is cones.

Necro is mostly fine, though conceivably you could lower the recharge on Soul Extraction and increase the time they stick around, giving you the oppurtunity to have, say, two at all times. This would give the set even more control and damage, as well as more to-hit debuffs and survivability. Give the zombies Lethal resistance.

Beast's T7 you really couldn't change without changing the basis for the entire set, unless instead of replacing it you are just adding something in. Perhaps change the Hawk in Call Hawk to a pseudo-pet so you could slot in that. Give all but the Dire Wolf a Flashing Steel clone on a very shot recharge (Reppu's idea, one that I like), and give the Dire Wolf's PBAoE a much shorter recharge (10 or 15 seconds) and more damage. This is really the only good AoE Beasts have, make it good enough to make up for it.


 

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Originally Posted by B_L_Angel View Post
Masterminds.

Ever since demons they have desperately needed an AI fix.
Before demons they were broken, just differently broken. Before demons they all preferred range, which meant that melee pets with a few range attacks (Grave Knights, Jounin, etc) stayed at range forever. When demons were introduced it reversed this, causing all pets to prefer melee.

I prefer the newer broken version, since at least with it all pets use all their attacks, rather than cycling only their ranged ones.


 

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Originally Posted by ketch View Post
I wouldn't alter doms' control values; the only time I find them inadequate is pre-20. Once SOs open up they start performing sufficiently to my taste. However, I would alter the debuff values for some dom sets. Looking at Ice in particular, it takes a hit on doms with the lower debuff values and Ice's general lack of hard control. It takes a second hit by lacking powers that greatly benefit from Domination. If a control set is built around using debuffs for soft control then it needs to be their for doms as well as controllers.
Ah yes! I actually meant Debuff values *smacks noggin* This is really obvious in sets like Electric Control and Darkness Control.



 

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Have seen alot of folks talking about Tankers and with the exception of certain powersets under-performing (ICE) or unpopular for mechanical reasons (STONE), Tankers are just fine to me.

I have never played a more survivable AT in any game (let alone this one) and they have a solid group role. If your argument is that the group role is not as "starkly" differentiated, then you should review ALL group roles in this game. Other MMOs have a clear "role-brand" for each AT. COX, not so much.

Tankers are just fine.


BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

 

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I agree with an earlier poster about Ice anything needs to be revamped in this game. The only good Ice set are Ice Blast, Cold Dom and Ice Armor for Stalkers and even then Ice Blast needs another secondary effect. -Recharge doesn't mitigate anything in game these days. I think Ice Blast should have -RES maybe half or 1/4 the -RES that sonic has.

Ice Manipulation needs a huge revamp...again I could go on but I'm talking about Sets now instead of ATs. Sorry heh.



 

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It's not so much as Tanks aren't good enough for their designed role. They're stury enough to do well. It's just that the mechanics behind how Tankers operate are so subtle that unless you know about them, you'd never know they were there.

I've seen people ask out loud why Tanker attacks can be slotted with taunt. And really, if you didn't know about gauntlet, everyone generates aggro by attacking, so it doesn't feel very different when you're using a Tank.

The only thing is the sense of sturdiness and that when you mash the Taunt power, you instantly nab mobs' attention. Which is a concept given many other games.

There's seems to be sufficient reason to warrant the devs to take another look at Tankers. Enough so that Synapse has stated that they'd do so.

I'm certainly not advocating for a new inherent that increases damage - or at least not directly. I'd like it if Bruising worked with other powers in the set and had some ability to stack with other Tankers. But I get it if that's not feasable.

The change may be as simple as providing effects for guantlet to show on mobs, or something to do with the new Absorb mechanic. Wouldn't it be interesting if Tankers had a MM like ability to guard nearby players and absorb some of their damage.


 

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Originally Posted by Tannim222 View Post
It's not so much as Tanks aren't good enough for their designed role. They're stury enough to do well. It's just that the mechanics behind how Tankers operate are so subtle that unless you know about them, you'd never know they were there.

I've seen people ask out loud why Tanker attacks can be slotted with taunt. And really, if you didn't know about gauntlet, everyone generates aggro by attacking, so it doesn't feel very different when you're using a Tank.

The only thing is the sense of sturdiness and that when you mash the Taunt power, you instantly nab mobs' attention. Which is a concept given many other games.

There's seems to be sufficient reason to warrant the devs to take another look at Tankers. Enough so that Synapse has stated that they'd do so.

I'm certainly not advocating for a new inherent that increases damage - or at least not directly. I'd like it if Bruising worked with other powers in the set and had some ability to stack with other Tankers. But I get it if that's not feasable.

The change may be as simple as providing effects for guantlet to show on mobs, or something to do with the new Absorb mechanic. Wouldn't it be interesting if Tankers had a MM like ability to guard nearby players and absorb some of their damage.
They should Raise the Aggro Cap ONLY for tankers and once the Tanker passes the old Aggro Cap he should have a high chance to generate Absorb for every extra mob that is pass the old cap...I think this can be achieved by having the New Gauntlet power grant absorb only after 12-16 baddies are surrounding the tank (sorry, I forgot what how high the agrro cap is). Also make it so that Gauntlet works with a few more powers but I think if you raise the aggro cap for tanks and add absorb this will help Tanks be more...well Tanky.



 

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Originally Posted by Tater Todd View Post
They should Raise the Aggro Cap ONLY for tankers and once the Tanker passes the old Aggro Cap he should have a high chance to generate Absorb for every extra mob that is pass the old cap...I think this can be achieved by having the New Gauntlet power grant absorb only after 12-16 baddies are surrounding the tank (sorry, I forgot what how high the agrro cap is). Also make it so that Gauntlet works with a few more powers but I think if you raise the aggro cap for tanks and add absorb this will help Tanks be more...well Tanky.
Current aggro cap is 17, I believe.


 

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Originally Posted by Mad Grim View Post
Current aggro cap is 17, I believe.
Ah! Thanks! to what was the old Tanker Cap? I can't remember was it 24? I thought I remember hearing that they lowered it a few years back. I think that the new cap should be either 24 or 27 and slap some absorb on that baby. Boom! Half of the Tanker's problem is fixed.



 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tater Todd View Post
They should Raise the Aggro Cap ONLY for tankers and once the Tanker passes the old Aggro Cap he should have a high chance to generate Absorb for every extra mob that is pass the old cap...I think this can be achieved by having the New Gauntlet power grant absorb only after 12-16 baddies are surrounding the tank (sorry, I forgot what how high the agrro cap is). Also make it so that Gauntlet works with a few more powers but I think if you raise the aggro cap for tanks and add absorb this will help Tanks be more...well Tanky.

I could get behind a buff to taunt. They could have taunt effect 16 targets max instead of 5 and Tankers would get a huge buff for their role. Hmmm, am I reversing my opinion here ? :/


BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tater Todd View Post
Ah! Thanks! to what was the old Tanker Cap? I can't remember was it 24? I thought I remember hearing that they lowered it a few years back. I think that the new cap should be either 24 or 27 and slap some absorb on that baby. Boom! Half of the Tanker's problem is fixed.
At one point there was no aggro cap, I am unaware of any other caps between that point and the current number. Entirely possible that I'm wrong, wasn't around then.

And yes, that sounds nice. Will definitely give them some advantage over brutes. Might have to take some reworking though, as far as I'm aware the cap is currently static across all ATs. May have to do more than change some numbers.


 

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Originally Posted by Mad Grim View Post
At one point there was no aggro cap, I am unaware of any other caps between that point and the current number. Entirely possible that I'm wrong, wasn't around then.

And yes, that sounds nice. Will definitely give them some advantage over brutes. Might have to take some reworking though, as far as I'm aware the cap is currently static across all ATs. May have to do more than change some numbers.
I think that Tanks work as intended BUT I understand where Tankers are coming from...one needs incentive to want to roll a Tanker over a brute or a Scrapper or sometimes even a Stalker haha.

I hope that they can change the Cap only for Tankers and leave the rest of the AT's alone.

Heck Biospark pointed out something that I didn't know about Taunt. I had no idea that Taunt only maxed out at 5 Targets. Up the Taunt cap for Tankers to 16 and raise the aggro Cap to 24-27 or higher if we dare and give Tankers the absorb mechanic to help with all that extra Aggro.

I've seen Scrappers, Stalkers, Blasters, Corruptors and ESPECIALLY Dominators pull aggro right off of a Tanker or Brute. That's fine if that happens with a Brute but that shouldn't be allowed to happen with a Tanker.



 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Grim View Post
I'll do it for you :] Bonus: Ninjas, beasts, necro.


One of the main problems with a lot of sets is the lack of a place to put RIP IOs. So many of my suggestions incorporate this.
i'm guessing that you're aware that making standard MM pets unable to slot RIP sets was a deliberate design decision, yes?
The Devs are unlikely to change a powerset's powers solely to allow the slotting of a specific IO set type. You can suggest it, but don't expect it to ever happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tater Todd View Post
I've seen Scrappers, Stalkers, Blasters, Corruptors and ESPECIALLY Dominators pull aggro right off of a Tanker or Brute. That's fine if that happens with a Brute but that shouldn't be allowed to happen with a Tanker.
i somewhat disagree with this. It's pretty much a standard part of MMO design that high DPS can steal aggro from the tank if the tank isn't focused on getting the attgention of the DPSer's target. i think it's perfectly reasonable that if the tank isn't directly attacking and taunting a target that someone else could steal the aggro.

Unless you're talking about it happening against the Tanker's primary target, in which case i pretty much agree. It's also something i haven't seen happen myself unless the Tanker went down. If a Tanker has a target fully aggroed it's nigh impossible to steal it.


Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...

 

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Originally Posted by Schismatrix View Post
Unless you're talking about it happening against the Tanker's primary target, in which case i pretty much agree. It's also something i haven't seen happen myself unless the Tanker went down. If a Tanker has a target fully aggroed it's nigh impossible to steal it.
I was talking about this mostly...even though it is rare I have seen it happen...even though one has to factor in was the tanker giving it their all. Sadly this if far as I can go on the discussion since I only have one Tanker that I rarely play. I normally play Ranged toons so I can only see things from my side of the fence .



 

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Not being able to slot RIP IOs as a balance point was kinda thrown out when some of the T7s can slot them anyways. All it does is give a disadvantage to the ones that don't have it. Ninjas, Mercs, Beasts would all benefit greats from the extra 5% def and 10% res, as well as the extra slots. Bots are already very powerful and don't much need it.

The suggestions weren't just that, either, they were around making all of them about the power level of Bots/Thugs/Demons.

As for just making the pets able to slot them, that would mean that the sets without the pet T7s would be lower on slots due to have 5 (soon 6) aura procs to slot in their main pets.


 

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I'm going to say this, and I'd like people to keep an open mind. Don't focus on the messenger, but listen to the message.

Most people playing this game don't know there's an aggro cap, let alone what it is, let alone think that it's too low. I highly doubt that raising it is going to make Tankers any more appealing except to a relative few hard core players, as most players wouldn't even notice the difference.

Furthermore, if you're trying to increase Tanker popularity with the masses, making the toughest AT even tougher isn't going to do it. If they're not playing Tankers now, it's because being tough isn't enough of a selling point to them, especially at the cost of so much damage. That is not going to improve Tanker's image of being slow, low damage and boring. If people wanted premium survivability at the cost of losing a ton of offensive capability, Stone Armor would be the most popular power set in the game. Pushing Tankers further towards the extreme, and pushing them further into a niche doesn't help them.

I ask you to look at what was done for Stalkers. They didn't play up their hide-and-backstab shtick further because they were hurting for being too specialized around that. What they did was improve their fighting ability and damage they could do when not hidden and increased their HP cap for a bit more survivability. In other words, they brought them a little bit closer towards middle and made them a little more rounded than they were before. And they are all the better for it. I've rolled and kept more Stalkers since their buffs than I ever have, largely because they don't feel so much like one-trick ponies now.

The same should be done for Tankers. They're currently one-trick aggro ponies. They could stand to be able to pitch in with the damage dealing a little more and have their damage cap increased the same way Stalkers had their HP cap increased. Because I'm sure if you asked people why they're not playing Tankers, they're not going to answer that it's because they're not tough enough and the aggro cap is too low.


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Every other AT isnt as important as Masterminds!

Masterminds need more attention!

RAWR!


 

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I understand Johnny but a lot of people still don't know about the Stalker change even when playing one and seeing the Assassin's Focus Icon *sigh*.

Well my idea has been scrapped...what if Tankers had their damage upped to a Brute's level...do you think people would roll one then?

Also Stalkers didn't even do what they were suppose to do well and the devs know it.



 

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Originally Posted by Tater Todd View Post
I understand Johnny but a lot of people still don't know about the Stalker change even when playing one and seeing the Assassin's Focus Icon *sigh*.
You know, I don't know why they didn't sell that more. A dev diary in the launcher, plus sending word around to the news outlets...
Did they even do a dev diary about it? I know they pimped it on the ustream.

I understand they can only do so much, but the buff was such a game changer people should know.

Quote:
Well my idea has been scrapped...what if Tankers had their damage upped to a Brute's level...do you think people would roll one then?
That would be game breaking. I think the Tanker's damage cap should be buffed to bring it in line with the Brute's cap, but it also has to take Bruising and the HP difference into account. That improves their damage potential, especially on teams.

Then they could use something unique that gives them a little pizzazz. I was kicking around an idea of a Burnout like ability that only affects a Tanker's secondary, letting them double up on a powerful attack every so often, perhaps at a cost. I have no idea if that would be OP or not. I suppose it depends on how often is 'every so often' and what the penalty is.


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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
Furthermore, if you're trying to increase Tanker popularity with the masses, making the toughest AT even tougher isn't going to do it. If they're not playing Tankers now, it's because being tough isn't enough of a selling point to them, especially at the cost of so much damage.
Maybe I missed it, but who is trying to increase Tanker popularity, and why?


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