Paragon Market Releases (WHY U NO STAFF?)


Abyssus

 

Posted

Just saying: there would not be a controversy here if not for the following facts:

  • Staff Fighting was opened on the beta earlier than Beast Mastery.
  • Staff Fighting was acknowledged by the majority of testers on the VIP beta as being clearly ready for release outside of minor FX issues as early as the end of January, as evidenced by testing data across all level ranges on the VIP beta servers, including Incarnate content. There were complaints about the set's sound effects, which were addressed, and there was an animation bug involving Assassin Strike on Staff Stalkers, which was addressed.
  • Beast Mastery, in contrast, was widely acknowledged to be underperforming by a substantial percentage of the testers who were actually skillful Mastermind players and who were not too busy squeeing over the pets' appearance to actually pay attention to the numbers. Chief among the set's acknowledged issues were the fact that none of the six pets in the set have gapless attack chains (in fact, all six have large gaps), and the fact that there was an observed correlation between Beast Mastery's introduction to the beta servers and a sudden significant degradation in pet AI performance which affected all Mastermind primaries.
  • The fact that the introduction of Beast Mastery to the VIP beta servers exposed a bug causing pets - Mastermind pets, Lore pets, Controller pets, any kind of pets - to uncontrollably charge mission and/or trial bosses while ignoring mastermind pet commands, including stay/heel, (most noticeable in various phases of the Underground trial, and also with Marauder at Lambda Sector, but it manifests in non-Incarnate content as well) should have been an absolute show-stopper to the set's release; there is no universe I am aware of in which an update that fundamentally breaks the functionality of one archetype and significantly inhibits the damage-dealing functionality of two other archetypes should have been considered acceptable.
  • Nonetheless, Beast Mastery was released to the live servers without addressing any of its problems, in the midst of a continuous wave (which is still ongoing) of new Paragon Market items obsessively using the four-legged animation rig first introduced by the German Shepherd vanity pet. As of right now, April 3, 2012, all of the above mentioned issues, which were identified on the VIP beta in February, are still present on the live servers.
  • We are then told that the timing of the release of Beast Mastery - which should not have been pushed live in this state - is the primary reason that Staff Fighting has not been released to the live servers, because "if we release too many Powersets too quickly, it could be seen as a grab at your Paragon Points, and subsequently, your money." However, either the development team apparently does not consider a black wolf vanity pet that is documented to require, on average, the purchase of over one hundred dollars in Super Packs to be a grab at our Paragon Points, or that excuse is patently devoid of truth.


 

Posted

I have no issues with those facts.

I have been saying since I22 to please fix the pet AI about once a day as have others, but they(red letters) have decided to be silent about it instead.

It feels like deja vu all over again.


The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
What a lively morning!

We're extremely happy and flattered that so many of you are so excited for Staff Fighting. While I know many of you are upset that it's not released now, we also have to be responsible with the cadence of releases on the Paragon Market.

What do I mean by that?
  • We do not want to release Powersets on top of each other. There needs to be separation between the releases of new toys so that people who are excited by them all, which is much of our Community, have time to play with each.
  • Balderdash..game will be around forever. I have eternity to play sets so gimme.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
  • If we release too many Powersets too quickly, it could be seen as a grab at your Paragon Points, and subsequently, your money. While we certainly appreciate you buying Paragon Points, we also have to be responsible with how we encourage you to spend with us.
  • Poppycock! What kinda hooch dealers are you people? Put away the shot glass and gimme the bottle. My money not good around here?!

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
  • We have to balance perception. There has been a perception we've been focusing on melee Powersets recently. Real or not, these sentiments need to be taken into account.
  • Oh fer Pete's sake. Schedule a trip to doctor Phil so you can all work on your feelings about how people "perceive" you. All these people worried about feelings and "oh, people might not like us". Bleh...whole country is going into the crapper I tell ya and I need a shiny trident to keep the scavengers away.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
  • Various other reasons.

Fiddlesticks!

Old man rant over...


The Revenants and Vengeance Imperium-Triumph, Champion & now flavoring Justice!

Tanker Tuesdays & Brutal Thursdays. If you like fun, look'em up!

Shhh! Rangle is plotting.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reiska View Post
Just saying: there would not be a controversy here if not for the following facts:
  • Staff Fighting was opened on the beta earlier than Beast Mastery.
  • Staff Fighting was acknowledged by the majority of testers on the VIP beta as being clearly ready for release outside of minor FX issues as early as the end of January, as evidenced by testing data across all level ranges on the VIP beta servers, including Incarnate content. There were complaints about the set's sound effects, which were addressed, and there was an animation bug involving Assassin Strike on Staff Stalkers, which was addressed.
  • Beast Mastery, in contrast, was widely acknowledged to be underperforming by a substantial percentage of the testers who were actually skillful Mastermind players and who were not too busy squeeing over the pets' appearance to actually pay attention to the numbers. Chief among the set's acknowledged issues were the fact that none of the six pets in the set have gapless attack chains (in fact, all six have large gaps), and the fact that there was an observed correlation between Beast Mastery's introduction to the beta servers and a sudden significant degradation in pet AI performance which affected all Mastermind primaries.
  • The fact that the introduction of Beast Mastery to the VIP beta servers exposed a bug causing pets - Mastermind pets, Lore pets, Controller pets, any kind of pets - to uncontrollably charge mission and/or trial bosses while ignoring mastermind pet commands, including stay/heel, (most noticeable in various phases of the Underground trial, and also with Marauder at Lambda Sector, but it manifests in non-Incarnate content as well) should have been an absolute show-stopper to the set's release; there is no universe I am aware of in which an update that fundamentally breaks the functionality of one archetype and significantly inhibits the damage-dealing functionality of two other archetypes should have been considered acceptable.
  • Nonetheless, Beast Mastery was released to the live servers without addressing any of its problems, in the midst of a continuous wave (which is still ongoing) of new Paragon Market items obsessively using the four-legged animation rig first introduced by the German Shepherd vanity pet. As of right now, April 3, 2012, all of the above mentioned issues, which were identified on the VIP beta in February, are still present on the live servers.
  • We are then told that the timing of the release of Beast Mastery - which should not have been pushed live in this state - is the primary reason that Staff Fighting has not been released to the live servers, because "if we release too many Powersets too quickly, it could be seen as a grab at your Paragon Points, and subsequently, your money." However, either the development team apparently does not consider a black wolf vanity pet that is documented to require, on average, the purchase of over one hundred dollars in Super Packs to be a grab at our Paragon Points, or that excuse is patently devoid of truth.
This. Why are these issues being ignored?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reiska View Post
There were complaints about the set's sound effects, which were addressed.
To be fair, some of the testers felt that they were made WORSE, not better (the first sound effects were too quiet, while the second versions had a metallic reverb which only worked if A) you picked a metallic staff or B) You fought robotic/armored enemies exclusively.), and there was that issue of the bladed staff being brought down with the blade facing sideways.

But compared to breaking MMs in general and being a complete joke, performance wise, some minor issues graphically with a handful of staffs (and I could always turn off sound outside of glowie hunts) presents a no-brainer of which set to release - unless you work for paragon.


Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shubbie View Post
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth View Post
wait a minute, staff is a melee powerset?

what were you guys thinking?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwellGuy View Post
Well it's a one-shot range weapon...
In the movie "The Three Musketeers" (the 1973 version), Porthos announces he's invented a new sword fighting technique. It consists of pulling your sword from your scabbard and releasing it so that it flies away and stabs your opponent. Aramis asks him to try this out on him, but this time Aramis easily knocks the blade away and then threatens the now-disarmed musketeer.

ARAMIS: "Only Porthos could invent a new way of disarming himself."


@ Purgatorio

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler View Post
Well I could see that if Titan Weapons and Staff Melee were released at the same time.

But Beast Mastery and Staff Melee are two entirely different playstyles.

Yeah. Because there aren't any players that enjoy both melee sets and the MM playstyle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike View Post
Sorry, you're trying to make it conditional.

I'm saying it's not.
Pretty much my thoughts as well.


If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.

Black Pebble is my new hero.

 

Posted

I don't know that the web site needs to be redesigned to add in a "new this month" section. If she has the time, a short note like the one War Witch posted last month outlining what was coming in March would be perfect. It could then be posted on the forums and website both as news items.

I honestly never expected staff in March because it wasn't on the list in that post.


Liberty Server (@enderbean)
Arcs on Live
#1460 Hometown Rivalry

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaSlade View Post
Balderdash..game will be around forever. I have eternity to play sets so gimme.

Poppycock! What kinda hooch dealers are you people? Put away the shot glass and gimme the bottle. My money not good around here?!

Oh fer Pete's sake. Schedule a trip to doctor Phil so you can all work on your feelings about how people "perceive" you. All these people worried about feelings and "oh, people might not like us". Bleh...whole country is going into the crapper I tell ya and I need a shiny trident to keep the scavengers away.[/LIST]
Fiddlesticks!

Old man rant over...
Papa you rock man!


The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reiska View Post
Just saying: there would not be a controversy here if not for the following facts:
  • Staff Fighting was opened on the beta earlier than Beast Mastery.
  • Staff Fighting was acknowledged by the majority of testers on the VIP beta as being clearly ready for release outside of minor FX issues as early as the end of January, as evidenced by testing data across all level ranges on the VIP beta servers, including Incarnate content. There were complaints about the set's sound effects, which were addressed, and there was an animation bug involving Assassin Strike on Staff Stalkers, which was addressed.
  • Beast Mastery, in contrast, was widely acknowledged to be underperforming by a substantial percentage of the testers who were actually skillful Mastermind players and who were not too busy squeeing over the pets' appearance to actually pay attention to the numbers. Chief among the set's acknowledged issues were the fact that none of the six pets in the set have gapless attack chains (in fact, all six have large gaps), and the fact that there was an observed correlation between Beast Mastery's introduction to the beta servers and a sudden significant degradation in pet AI performance which affected all Mastermind primaries.
  • The fact that the introduction of Beast Mastery to the VIP beta servers exposed a bug causing pets - Mastermind pets, Lore pets, Controller pets, any kind of pets - to uncontrollably charge mission and/or trial bosses while ignoring mastermind pet commands, including stay/heel, (most noticeable in various phases of the Underground trial, and also with Marauder at Lambda Sector, but it manifests in non-Incarnate content as well) should have been an absolute show-stopper to the set's release; there is no universe I am aware of in which an update that fundamentally breaks the functionality of one archetype and significantly inhibits the damage-dealing functionality of two other archetypes should have been considered acceptable.
  • Nonetheless, Beast Mastery was released to the live servers without addressing any of its problems, in the midst of a continuous wave (which is still ongoing) of new Paragon Market items obsessively using the four-legged animation rig first introduced by the German Shepherd vanity pet. As of right now, April 3, 2012, all of the above mentioned issues, which were identified on the VIP beta in February, are still present on the live servers.
  • We are then told that the timing of the release of Beast Mastery - which should not have been pushed live in this state - is the primary reason that Staff Fighting has not been released to the live servers, because "if we release too many Powersets too quickly, it could be seen as a grab at your Paragon Points, and subsequently, your money." However, either the development team apparently does not consider a black wolf vanity pet that is documented to require, on average, the purchase of over one hundred dollars in Super Packs to be a grab at our Paragon Points, or that excuse is patently devoid of truth.

Yup, this pretty much covers it.


Types of Swords
My Portfolio

 

Posted

The Developers are falling prey to the "new shiny tech" affliction. First it was Ouoboros and Cimerora which fell by the wayside, then it was Praetoria and First Ward (where is the level 30 content for Praetoria?) now it's the four-legged rig.

How many canines/felines do we need?

Seriously, put those resources to high quality costume bundles like Carnival of Light or even the Sci-Fi pack or to new powersets.

Staff fighting could have been released before Issue 22 but I do understand they wanted Dark Control and Dark Assault and Beast Mastery in that timeframe. But it's now mid-April and we still don't know when it is going live. There really should be a schedule under Announcements so we know what to expect and when to expect it...it would alleviate so much forum angst if there were one.


Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post
Didn't they get burned by that sort of thing at least once already?

(Or even release order... remember the SSOCS that... er... never showed up that was supposed to take some sting from ED? Instead, we waited for Inventions.)
More than once.

They released the date for ... Issue 19? ... release at the 2010 Bay Area M&G and had to push it back due to problems that cropped up. There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth on the forums, even though they qualified it when it was announced with an "unless something unforeseen occurs" type statement.

And yeah, SSOCS. *cries a little*


If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.

Black Pebble is my new hero.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague View Post
there was that issue of the bladed staff being brought down with the blade facing sideways.
An issue which Titan Weapons still has on live with Arc of Destruction, at that.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
Personally, I'm also in the camp that has no use for vanity pets. I've never been one for the Pokemon approach to in game pets, but that's my personal preference. Perhaps I'm privileged in the fact that I can see that there is a significant portion of our Community who is excited by vanity pets and show us so. It may not be good for me, but it's good for other people who really enjoy this type of content.
I...


Totally thought the pets were your idea all this time.

Oh god I'm sorry.



http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Codewalker View Post
Well there was the whole thing Z mentioned about not wanting to release another melee powerset first. I mean, the purchased powersets have been, what?

1. Beam Rifle (Freedom launch?)
2. Street Justice
3. Titan Weapons
4. ???

So if Staff had been #4 instead of Beast Mastery, then we would have gotten an entirely different kind of whining (Y U MELLE ONLY?!)

Would it have been as bad as this? Who knows.
In the last 8 months, we've gotten the following powersets:
  • beam rifle
  • time manipulation
  • darkness assault
  • street justice
  • dark control / darkness affinity
  • titan weapons
  • beast mastery

That's nearly one powerset a month. (It IS one a month if you count Darkness Affinity -- which I don't.)

Some of you will protest that not all of these were retail. That is irrelevant. Free to VIP's or not, they still took resources, personnel and testing. Now ask yourself this: from a business point of view, which is more effective? Releasing TWO powersets the same day (one retail, one free) or spacing them out? Even something as popular as Street Fighting would have seen FEWER sales if it had come out the same day as, say, Time Manipulation. With TWO shinies competing for people's attention, some potential SJ buyers would play with Time instead and might not get around to buying the retail set before another one was released.

I am NOT trying to justify releasing a bugged powerset before it's ready. I'm just saying that we've gotten MORE stuff more QUICKLY than we have in the past and all the "I want it nao" posts don't change that.


@ Purgatorio

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuronia View Post
The Developers are falling prey to the "new shiny tech" affliction. First it was Ouoboros and Cimerora which fell by the wayside, then it was Praetoria and First Ward (where is the level 30 content for Praetoria?) now it's the four-legged rig.

How many canines/felines do we need?
More than we had before, which is what we have now.
Quote:
Seriously, put those resources to high quality costume bundles like Carnival of Light or even the Sci-Fi pack or to new powersets.
Because, after all, there's not anything like, say, a retro/scifi pack being made now. Nope. All ligers and tions and beers.

We're not losing anything.
Quote:
Staff fighting could have been released before Issue 22 but I do understand they wanted Dark Control and Dark Assault and Beast Mastery in that timeframe. But it's now mid-April and we still don't know when it is going live.
Since when does april have only six days?
Quote:
There really should be a schedule under Announcements so we know what to expect and when to expect it...it would alleviate so much forum angst if there were one.
And then when they miss something or it gets pushed back, we get the "They promised, they're missing targets because of <something I don't like>, I'm quitting!"


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuronia View Post
How many canines/felines do we need?
As many as they can think up(Liger LOL!!!!!!!!!) and get people to buy. Based on recent events (Liger ROFLMAO!!!!), we are at the tip of the ice berg.


The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noobian_Prince View Post
Some of you will protest that not all of these were retail. That is irrelevant. Free to VIP's or not,
... and ignore that, I bought them (for example) when non-VIP. They're getting steady cashflow for other things.

Getting stuck in the trap of "seen through VIP eyes" doesn't help. After all, not everyone's VIP.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuronia View Post
Staff fighting could have been released before Issue 22 but I do understand they wanted Dark Control and Dark Assault and Beast Mastery in that timeframe. But it's now mid-April and we still don't know when it is going live. There really should be a schedule under Announcements so we know what to expect and when to expect it...it would alleviate so much forum angst if there were one.
It is? You must be using a Delorean or something. It's only April 3rd here.


@ Purgatorio

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuronia View Post
But it's now mid-April and we still don't know when it is going live.
o rly?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
that's just like my earlier post, only way better and funnier...DARN YOU, HYPERSTRIKE!

>:e
What can I say? I'm a snide *******.



Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuronia View Post
The Developers are falling prey to the "new shiny tech" affliction. First it was Ouoboros and Cimerora which fell by the wayside, then it was Praetoria and First Ward (where is the level 30 content for Praetoria?) now it's the four-legged rig.

How many canines/felines do we need?

Seriously, put those resources to high quality costume bundles like Carnival of Light or even the Sci-Fi pack or to new powersets.

Staff fighting could have been released before Issue 22 but I do understand they wanted Dark Control and Dark Assault and Beast Mastery in that timeframe. But it's now mid-April and we still don't know when it is going live. There really should be a schedule under Announcements so we know what to expect and when to expect it...it would alleviate so much forum angst if there were one.
I wouldnt call April 3rd, mid April


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuronia View Post
But it's now mid-April and we still don't know when it is going live.

Since when does april have only six days?
One of you two owes me for a new keyboard, monitor and desk calendar that I just spit Iced Tea on.

I don't really think it's Bill that owes me. How could he not respond when fed a straight line like that.


If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.

Black Pebble is my new hero.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
I wouldnt call April 3rd, mid April
There are only four tuesdays in April, we've had one of them, the next available release slot is the second Tuesday.


Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noobian_Prince View Post
In the last 8 months, we've gotten the following powersets:
  • beam rifle
  • time manipulation
  • darkness assault
  • street justice
  • dark control / darkness affinity
  • titan weapons
  • beast mastery

That's nearly one powerset a month. (It IS one a month if you count Darkness Affinity -- which I don't.)

Some of you will protest that not all of these were retail. That is irrelevant. Free to VIP's or not, they still took resources, personnel and testing. Now ask yourself this: from a business point of view, which is more effective? Releasing TWO powersets the same day (one retail, one free) or spacing them out? Even something as popular as Street Fighting would have seen FEWER sales if it had come out the same day as, say, Time Manipulation. With TWO shinies competing for people's attention, some potential SJ buyers would play with Time instead and might not get around to buying the retail set before another one was released.

I am NOT trying to justify releasing a bugged powerset before it's ready. I'm just saying that we've gotten MORE stuff more QUICKLY than we have in the past and all the "I want it nao" posts don't change that.
That could be some of it.

But remember some of the people clamouring for Staff Fighting, likely didn't buy the following...

Darkness Control, Dark Assault, Dark Affinity or Temporal Manipulation. Why? Because they were free.

Then there's those who likely didn't go to those AND they skipped Beast Mastery because MM is not that popular of an AT.

Add in that, there does seem (and I could be wrong, it's just observation) to be quite a few players who prefere to keep to strictly melee ATs.

Also add in that Staff Fighting has been requested long before Beast Mastery, one of the reasons being that people wanted a weapon set that was more smashing hurt and less slicey, maim, kill the criminal feelings.

Now admittedly, when I say that last part, I believe people can assume they're not killing enemies with their lethal style weapons. But that's me. Others can be less forgiving. Personally in comic book worlds, the only ones who seems to stay hurt with those weapons are minions when the plot calls for it and civvies.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection