Paragon Market Releases (WHY U NO STAFF?)
By
Abyssus,
Posted on: 2012-04-03 10:40 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Well that's because they are in fact AWESOMESAUCE.
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Originally Posted by Miakis
But on the upside, I'm really enjoying my Dark/Dark Troller!
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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I'm shocked. I actually agree with a Darth_Khasei post. |
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Well that's because they are in fact AWESOMESAUCE.
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Unless he's just being sarcastic... in which case, go eat a pile of pancakes, dude. >_<
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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Well, the reasons for the outrage are outlined on this post right here:|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
This just seems so dumb to me. "I'm mad over how you handled this so I'm going to punish us both."
I don't know why PS is delaying Staff. I want a Staff character. I'm disappointed I haven't been able to have one already. I think it's good for people to tell PS they're disappointed. And yet, I consider the actual outrage over it by every party who's expressed in this thread childish. |
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=176
While there are some outrage in these forums that can be considered childish, the link above explains my own outrage towards the non-release of Staff.
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Moar evidence that people don't really understand typed communications as well as face to face. You have agreed with my positions many more times than not. No worries though, everything will be alright.
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Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
I'm shocked. I actually agree with a Darth_Khasei post.
Unless he's just being sarcastic... in which case, go eat a pile of pancakes, dude. >_< |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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That link is a consolidation of the legitimate complaints and feedback for the devs expressed here since I22. A lot of what is in that post was posted here at attacked by a few people with extreme positions eventhough the complaints have serious merit.|
Originally Posted by Denji
Well, the reasons for the outrage are outlined on this post right here:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=176 While there are some outrage in these forums that can be considered childish, the link above explains my own outrage towards the non-release of Staff. |
A dev reading that post will at least be able to see the truth without any other filters.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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That's my hope, anyway. That a dev will read that. Though, the delay of Staff, I'd like to guess, has nothing to do with devs. But Marketing. (Which, it has already been established that, doesn't include Zwil.)|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
That link is a consolidation of the legitimate complaints and feedback for the devs expressed here since I22. A lot of what is in that post was posted here at attacked by a few people with extreme positions eventhough the complaints have serious merit.
A dev reading that post will at least be able to see the truth without any other filters. |
I just hope something like this doesn't happen again. (Though, I'm kind of keeping my reserve on that...)
I'll wait for Staff because I like this game so damn much. :\
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I said I agreed with your post, not your position. It's true we've been on the same side of an argument many times in the past... but surely you know that the way you post often does more harm to your position than good. Calling people "Paragon Studios' bum kissers" for disagreeing with you lowers your argument to ignorable at best.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
You have agreed with my positions many more times than not.
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In the overall argument of this thread (and other Staff Fighting threads), I'm pretty neutral about the delay and just trying to keep the facts straight when people say things like, "We were promised that it would release alongside i22!" (no, we weren't; they said back in January that it would be coming out sometime after the issue launched) or, "Staff Fighting won't be out until i23!" (also not true; Z said in this very thread it's coming out during the month of April).
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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The only problem is I never did that, re-read the quote as it nothing to do with agreeing with me. That is the kind of purpose minded misinformation that is the source of any disagreements more so than anything game related. |
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
I said I agreed with your post, not your position. It's true we've been on the same side of an argument many times in the past... but surely you know that the way you post often does more harm to your position than good. Calling people "Paragon Studios' bum kissers" for disagreeing with you lowers your argument to ignorable at best.
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The rest of that stuff you wrote has nothing to do with me or anything that I posted.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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I think that is the issue. Folks are either too entitled, or too impatient. Pick your poison, I guess.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Because the core of the lesson is that people can't deal with waiting.
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I think they will learn from this as they have from many things in the past. It might not be seen in action for a bit, but I am sure they are going to be a better company for this experience, the store is not even a year yet there is bound to be growing pains.|
Originally Posted by Denji
That's my hope, anyway. That a dev will read that. Though, the delay of Staff, I'd like to guess, has nothing to do with devs. But Marketing. (Which, it has already been established that, doesn't include Zwil.)
I just hope something like this doesn't happen again. (Though, I'm kind of keeping my reserve on that...) I'll wait for Staff because I like this game so damn much. :\ |
I have waited for Staff fighting and my Lunar Knight toon since I8....now is not the time to panic and runaway mad lol.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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This, we're talking what a few days or weeks?|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
I think they will learn from this as they have from many things in the past. It might not be seen in action for a bit, but I am sure they are going to be a better company for this experience, the store is not even a year yet there is bound to be growing pains.
I have waited for Staff fighting and my Lunar Knight toon since I8....now is not the time to panic and runaway mad lol. |
I think we can wait (begrudgingly) a little longer.
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Some are just disappointed.
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Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
I think that is the issue. Folks are either too entitled, or too impatient. Pick your poison, I guess.
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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True and I think it is intellectually dishonest that some are not acknowledging the legitimate reasons that are the root of the majority of angst. The devs do have Riska(sp) post to refer too and that is all that is needed for them to get the message they clearly got based on Z's post.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Some are just disappointed.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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I quite liked the concept of vanity pets and prepared to stagger points purchases as I could for them...until they made the change where all non-AT pets were in this pseudo cue that only allowed one out at a time. That pretty much killed future purchase plans to be honest.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Personally, I'm also in the camp that has no use for vanity pets. I've never been one for the Pokemon approach to in game pets, but that's my personal preference. Perhaps I'm privileged in the fact that I can see that there is a significant portion of our Community who is excited by vanity pets and show us so. It may not be good for me, but it's good for other people who really enjoy this type of content.
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This. Some of us just have other crap that makes this seem more important than it is.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Some are just disappointed.
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For those that can't simply plunk down extra $$$ at will, this is a wonderful idea as it allows for better budgeting of points. IE: If I knew that set A was being released on date X, then I could have rearranged my points spending by not purchasing item L until after my VIP stipend/paycheck came in on date Y thus giving me access to something more useful before something for flare.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
I do see the requests for a calendar detailing the release schedule for the Month ahead. I'll bring this suggestion to the business team. A consideration to remember; this would involve changing the website which takes months to accomplish.
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..Sorry during this whole thing, all i could think of when reading thru this is..Zwill posting within this own thread..and couldnt help think that even tho it's not fully the same, could it still be a:
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Seriously what the hell logic is this. You dont tell us how to spend our money. You have it totally backwards as usual for what the customer actually thinks and sees. I could give a crap about all those enhancements you guys are releasing especially since they are so easy to get in game now. Your marketing department has always been epic phail and why this game will never reach its true potential. Everyone one of them needs to be replaced if they think this is how to get customers.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
What a lively morning!
We're extremely happy and flattered that so many of you are so excited for Staff Fighting. While I know many of you are upset that it's not released now, we also have to be responsible with the cadence of releases on the Paragon Market. What do I mean by that?
Again, we're extremely flattered and grateful for the excitement being shown about Staff Fighting. Take comfort in the fact that your stick waving itch should be scratched Very Soon™. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Closed betas have always, always run more smoothly than open betas, and closed beta testers have always, always demonstrated far less entitlement about anything that appeared in closed betas.
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This is a YMMV situation for sure. As a person who has never been invited to a closed beta, it certainly felt like an entitlement mentality to me when some closed beta testers took to the "normal" boards to tell the rest of us not to bother commenting because it was already discussed in closed beta and a decision was made. There are some players whose opinion I generally respect, but "entitlement" is definitely the word that comes to mind when I have to characterize my interactions with several closed beta testers that I, the paid customer who didn't get to voice an opinion, was forced to deal with. While I obviously don't expect the developers to listen or even read what feedback I have, I can't really say I'm sad the same small group of people are no longer dominating the direction of feedback.
I don't have a problem with them delaying Staffs, but it would be nice to see power sets released in the order they were tested on Beta/Test.
Releasing Staves first would have given them more time to add alternate pets instead of just the Stoopid Wolf(TM). Now Beast Mastery, a set that could have benefited from some extra work is out and about while Staves, a set that was apparently ready to go, is in the wings.
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I suppose it is apparent that the differing levels of transparency have created the negativity some customers have been feeling and expressing.
While I have been fine being patient and haven't been upset by any of this, I do understand both sides of the issue.
The transparency created by the open testing and access VIPs get on future content contributed. Even the transparency of March's rough release schedule via War Witch's letter contributed a bit.
The company's transparency with the fact that they withhold things that are ready for multiple business purposes has contributed to some of the negativity.
And then, of course, the lack of transparency regarding when these customers can accurately expect a particular item has been a major contributor.
As far as holding things back due to business practices...
I know it can come off wrongly for an eager customer (and I am certainly not going to say that it is always the right way to go - for business purposes), but this is practically a given for any and every item anyone has ever purchased (beyond perishables, hehe). Whether it is that new, fancy, shiny tech you're eager to get your hands on, your favorite artist's new album, the next episode of a television show, or a piece of clothing you ordered from a new catalog... they're made and finished before you get your hands/ears/eyes on them.
In that respect, you might want to keep your heads in check and understand that, this isn't a strange practice. It is just that you happen to know that thing you want is just sitting around, uselessly, while you'd like to already have it (like tracking your item on UPS... WHY IS IT JUST SITTING IN THE WAREHOUSE!!?!?! I especially love it when it is driven from one warehouse, past your neighborhood just to sit in another warehouse, hehe).
Of course, I think the company could have done a better job by letting the eager customers know that they won't be getting it until a specific date (as best as they could state as time passes). One week ahead of time doesn't really change much about this past situation. All of March was pretty well covered. Then April came and many eager people wanted to know and/or made false assumptions. Fault doesn't matter... just observation and positive adjustments.
Big ticket items, such as powersets may be best to have a little more information regarding their potential release schedule.
Then again, maybe all of this angst was good? Any press is good press?
The big point I wanted to express is that it is super easy to sit on the other side and point out how the creators/suppliers/sellers are doing it wrong.
It really only takes a tiny little slip here or there and you can have the packs of wild armchair critics descend upon you.
If Staff Fighting went first and we were waiting around for Beast Mastery, while there would have been plenty of people who were A-Okay with this and could completely rationalize it in ways that they'd fully believe should assuage anyone else's complaints, there would have been the same threads and posts of angst regarding the lack of information, the "pointless" waiting (as BM wouldn't have been touched in Beta all this time either) and so on and so forth, once April, and its unmapped schedule, began.
As the creator and distributor, there are a multitude of factors involved. And, while it may seem unreasonable, to some, how certain scenarios play out... 1-2 months of waiting for a new shiny toy may not seem so ridiculous to them. And that's not such an unreasonable stance to take, regardless of your position.
In closing, if you read this and didn't like it... please submit a written complaint and place it on my desk. 
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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That's because you aren't thinking far enough ahead. What do you suppose the developers do when the signal to noise ratio drops far enough? Sleep less and try to read everything posted? Or be more selective about what they read?|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
While I obviously don't expect the developers to listen or even read what feedback I have, I can't really say I'm sad the same small group of people are no longer dominating the direction of feedback.
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And do you think what they read is chosen by lottery?
Closed betas were not just the same people constantly. They included a significant number of people chosen somewhat randomly (with some selection criteria) to represent the playerbase. Those people had an opportunity to have their voices and feedback heard in an environment where they actually could be heard. In open betas, those same people's voices were about fifty times less likely to be noticed.
The people who are always heard will always be heard. Do you think there's any difference between a closed beta and an open beta in terms of me getting my point across? But in closed betas, the people who normally *aren't* heard can be represented. They don't have to fight for mindshare or attention. At any other time they are operating under enormous disadvantages, but in a closed beta they are automatically a high-value voice, being one of the few.
Closed betas were ironically some of the best opportunities for the masses to be heard as individuals, if they chose to be.
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| As a person who has never been invited to a closed beta, it certainly felt like an entitlement mentality to me when some closed beta testers took to the "normal" boards to tell the rest of us not to bother commenting because it was already discussed in closed beta and a decision was made. There are some players whose opinion I generally respect, but "entitlement" is definitely the word that comes to mind when I have to characterize my interactions with several closed beta testers that I, the paid customer who didn't get to voice an opinion, was forced to deal with. |
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As someone who's dealt with the issue numerous times with new video games that are held for a street date, I'd say that the fact that the practice isn't strange doesn't make it any less hateful.
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
In that respect, you might want to keep your heads in check and understand that, this isn't a strange practice.
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Goodbye may seem forever
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Hey Marketing, protip: Having to wait months for a set that is already done and ready for no other reason than you thinking it builds hype doesn't make me excited. It makes me frustrated. And when it's finally out, the "Yaaaay I am going to play this forever!" is long gone, replaced with "About guddamn time."
Long story short? If Staff released with I22, I would have one at 50 now. Now? I don't think I'll even be buying it.
I don't know why PS is delaying Staff. I want a Staff character. I'm disappointed I haven't been able to have one already. I think it's good for people to tell PS they're disappointed. And yet, I consider the actual outrage over it by every party who's expressed in this thread childish.
The lesson here, IMO, is that PS should not put things on open beta that aren't going to be released for a long time. They won't release things sooner in absolute terms. People just won't know about them (or at least what state of readiness they are in) for as long in advance. Because the core of the lesson is that people can't deal with waiting.
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