Tier 4 Incarnate Powers - Worth the grind? (semi-rant)

Obviously, Incarnate powers are a pretty big deal. Tier 3 in particular is important due to the level shift that three of the five slots have to offer. I also find Tier 3 to be relatively easy to grind for - you get tons of uncommons from the easier badges on trials, 8 Emps for a guaranteed rare isn't too bad if you're unlucky with rolls, we've got DA arcs and repeatables to solo for those last few threads or some extra component rolls, etc. etc.

But Tier 4. Seriously. Getting the Very Rare, ok, I understand, it takes a while - either you wait to get lucky on component rolls or you save up tons of lesser components, threads, or Emp Merits. I don't have a problem with the Very Rare.

What gets to me is the fact that Tier 4 powers require you to build ANOTHER Tier 3 all over again. So, if getting to Tier 3 in all slots takes X time, getting Tier 4 takes another full X plus Y (the time to get a Very Rare component).

All that jazz, and honestly, the Tier 4 powers don't feel like that much of an improvement over T3. Yeah, sure, Destiny lasts longer, Interface procs a bit more often, etc. But is it really worth double the time for an incremental boost?

What do you folks think? I just hit T3 in all slots on my current main, and I'm really tempted to just run the 1 or 2 Trials I haven't beat yet, maybe try a couple "Master of" badges, and then shelve him until whenever the next slot comes out.

I've fully T4'd something like 9 toons now, and going on to T4 2 more toons. All those toons have 2-4 T4 Destiny Powers, and a couple have 2 T4 Alpha powers, and 1 has 2 T4 Lore powers. I definitely consider getting your powers to T4 to be worth it (and I of personal preference like having everything maxed out).

T3 is going to be your biggest performance boost, especially for Alpha, Destiny, and Lore as they give you your level shifts. For a more casual player getting fully T3'd I'd say is good enough to call yourself "done".

However getting to T4 does make a difference. It's not worth all the work it takes when you compare how much the T4 abilities will improve your character to the T3 abilities, but it is nice if you want that character to go the extra mile and get it all complete and shiny, especially if it is your main character.

Of important note, if you aren't looking to put in all the work to fully T4 a character but you have a very rare component drop that you want to make use of, getting your Destiny and Alpha abilities to T4 will be the best way to use it. T4 Destiny compared to T3 Destiny typically means a duration boost, a power boost, or a radius boost, or all of the above. All of which is very useful. T4 Alpha is also important because it ignores more of E.D. (2/3s vs 1/2 ignored). If anything is going to be T4'd on a character make it T4 Destiny and Alpha, they are absolutely worth T4'ing. On the other hand, Interface, Judgment, and Lore are typically fine at T3.

Tier 3's for me. I have taken about..40? toons through the trials, and if I played EACH toon till he got the 4 VR's need for T4s, well..I would not have them all done. Definately more important to me to get all my much loved alts with some not quite max power shinies, than just a few with everything tricked out.

Not just that, but as the OP mentions..some of the jumps from T3 to 4 just dont seem that worth it to me. Nearly all my toons already HAD t4 alphas, from before the iTrials hit, and I think it is stupid using the trial salvage on anything but t2 alphas.

Lore..I am at the point now where I just pick the lore that looks coolest with that toon (not on any rp basis..just a general feeling). In fact, many of the t3 lores give me pets I WANT more than the T4s. Such as the carnie partial corre with a ring mistress and therm pet..which would require me to go to t4, for the same on the support side of things.

Likewise with Interface. I always get the 75% dots, which is t3 anyway. the 25% or less added effect at t4? I can live without. Destiny too. Clarion is perma at t3, clarion radial lasts as long at t3 as t4, which just higher numbers. I never take ageless. Barrier would be good running ALL the time..but I dont need it..and that circle gets annoying.

So yeah..T3s all the way.

It's for the completionists and to give us something else to do while we're waiting on more slots to unlock.

T3 should really be "the main goal", its just where the biggest bang for the buck is. So how 'worth it' th T4s are is really up to you. They're not heads and shoulders better than T3s, but they are better.

Tier 4 Core pets get "Lore Power", which buffs their damage by 25%. It's listed in their powers in detailed info, but unfortunately it does not expand to show what it does, so you have to type it in chat or summon them and look at their combat attributes.

On the main topic, I find that t4 for most powers is not worth it. There are a few, like the Destinies that do not become perma until t4, and Pyronic where you can't get the DoT and the large radius together without t4, where it's meaningfully better, but for many powers the difference is so minor that I don't sweat over not having it. I only have one character with full t4s, and I'm slowly working on a second, because I really like playing those characters so I had the components anyway, but I'm completely satisfied with the rest of my Incarnates having a single t4, or none at all.

In most cases, no. The benefits provided by Tier 4 powers are not substantial enough to justify spending the time on them versus the Tier 3 versions.

That's by design, IMO. The Tier 4s are just there to have something to work towards if you're the type of player who likes to focus on one character and push them to the absolute maximum limit.

For altaholics like me, I have 2 characters that I care enough about to want to Tier 4 them. The others -- if I incarnate them (and there are quite a few that I have no plans to) -- will stop at Tier 3.

It can be important to factor in what time you're doubling. If your server regularly runs large numbers of successful trials per day, especially the newer trials with higher chance of (or "guaranteed") Rare/VR drops, 60-thread bonuses, and extra Empyrean Merits, then the time you might be doubling could be measured in a few days. For someone like me, who's a "completionist" and a min/maxer, that's an acceptable investment in additonal time.

It also helps to have alternate goals for your iTrial. I had set myself a target of getting 60 Empyrean Merits on each level 50 character I had - a goal I met some time ago. Simply getting drops on the way to that target let me not just get T4s, but plenty of extra T4s. I have 10 characters who not only have T4s in all five current slots, they all have 2-3 T4 Destinies and a few have 2 T4 Judgements, plus a smattering of extra T3s.

As an aside, those two slots (Destiny and Judgement) are usually the only slots I have much interest in having multiples of, with Judgment trailing Destiny significantly in number multiples I have across my characters. Alpha holds a distant third place, mostly due to experimentation to see which I like best for a given character.

I have like 40 50's and many are T4 everything. I stopped at T3 on a few, but the majority will be all T4 and it is worth it on them to go to t4.

For me the alpha is the first thing I'd consider T4ing in most cases simply because it can affect so much about your character depending on the alpha you choose.

The destiny buff might be my 2nd choice since many of the destiny buffs dont get to perma status until T4 though if I am using clarion I might just t4 the Lore pet or Judgement next for more damage as that would likely have a higher overall impact for me.

I approach the T3/T4 discussion similarly to an IO builds discussion.

In builds, I frankenslot my toons starting around L25-L28. For me, it is hands-down
the best blend of consistent performance, usability, and cost.

Likewise, the handful of toons I incarnate consider T3's as the PoA (Point of Arrival).

T3's, like frankenslotting, are the best blend of performance vs cost (ie. effort),
and for the large majority of my iToons T3 is as far as they're going (barring
blind luck drops).

That said, I do have a couple toons that are "purpled-out" with multi-billion
inf builds - for them, the extra cost and effort was a> part of the plan to begin
with, and b> worth it, once achieved.

For those couple toons, they're also going to go the T4 route as well, for much
the same reasons.

However, with T3's providing all the level shifts, and the bulk of the performance,
there's no time-urgency to get them to T4's, so I've been very gradually collecting
the various bits and pieces for them without actually doing enough of it to feel "grindy".

Rather, I've taken the approach that "they'll get them when they do" and that's
made it more enjoyable for me, rather than burning out trying to load them up in a
specific time-frame.

There's no question that the effort-gap between T3 & T4 is quite large, but that
doesn't mean you *have* to experience it as an @$$-busting grind.


Regards,
4

For me personally, I get to T3 on my incarnate powers and then start up my next toon to iOut. I will eventually T4 my others, but I will do that in my leisure.

So far I've been going for a second t3 lore instead of taking anything to t4 because I always pick the worst lore pet the first time. As far as i can tell none of the heal/buff pets actually heal or buff in a useful way, so at least when I go for t4 on everything the lore will be mostly there.

I rarely stay on one character after I "finish it", keeping 1-3 mains and shattering/deleting the rest. Yet on most builds I 50 i go to 3-5 tier 4s. the reason? How can i test how good something is without getting the full effect?

And of course, my handful of favorites and mains have achieved tier 4 just because I run them all the time.

Last thought: Because the way I play it is actually easier for me to tier 4 many times. Everytime I delete a 50 that has done I trials i email threads with Emps and Astrals to my account. So the next 50 saves their Astrals/Emps, and it continues snowballing.

I tend to work on a strangely fragmented system where I go for tier 4s only when they are convenient or I really want to play that toon. Sometimes I get a VR without really trying for one, and once I have a VR I go "... why not?" and then make the tier 4.


As far as the powers go, the ones that are "most worth it" in order IMO are as follows:

#1: Alpha
#2: Lore
#3: Destiny
#4: Judgement
#5: interface

Tier 4 Alpha is easier to get than the others, with Favor of the Well and shards being obtainable outside of incarnate trials through a steady stream of work. The reason why the Alpha is so high up the list is because the tiering changes how much of the boost is unresisted. 2/3rds unresisted is a steal for what is needed to get it. The radial version also boosts a ton of different powers, so if there is a radial version that gives bonuses to everything you need, then there is nothing more critical than the alpha.

Tier 4 lore pets... they just plain rock. They get damage boosts and are generally quite a bit stronger than their previous versions. I haven't actually done the math, but they just *feel* that way.

Destiny provides team buffs, and everyone will thank you for having it. Though the actual influence is only incremental increases, sometimes that is all you need. Some destinies are more important to get upgraded than others, though.

Judgement is a nuke power, and at tier 3 they have enough "nuke" generally to accomplish whatever you need done. Tier 4 upgrades things to Rocket Propelled Chainsaw levels, but only in the sense that it seems like overkill more than practicality.

Interface... is arguably the weakest incarnate slot. Each of the abilities barely registers past the "... oh yeah I have that power" mark, and whatever primary goal you are trying to accomplish (damage boost, debuff, side effect) is almost always done by the tier 3 version. The only one that substantially grows in power from tier 3 to tier 4 is Gravitic, and that power itself is just meh.

Alpha yes, obviously.

The rest...mostly subjective, and based on how much you value your time and how high your tolerance of repetition is.

I've got too many 50's and too little time to t4 them all. I hit them up as I can and go a more opportunistic route. But, basically, I consider t3 on non-Alpha slots to be good enough. Everything else is gravy.

My buddy has focused on a few of his 50's and has them all t4'd out. He feels that it was basically worth the time. Personally, I would get bored playing the same 3 characters thru the same trials over and over and over again.

T3 gives the best return on investment, but T4 grants an edge. It's up to you ultimately.

Its funny to see everyone's order of preference for what to T4.

For me it seems to depend heavily on your character. My main wanted T3 first for destiny, but the first T4 that I wanted was Interface. After watching my Son grow thru the Incarnate powers to fully T4'd, it seems certainly worth doing it, but not until you;

A) Get everything to T3

B) Decide which slots are the most important for your toon to get to T4


My Order of preference will always depend on the particular toon, but Biospark's order is ;
Interface, Alpha, Judgement, Destiny, Lore

*dont underestimate the value of the interface proc rates, they are dramatically better from T3 to T4 *

I've only got 2 alts fully decked out with T4s. Everything else tends to be in a "get to +3" mode as the priority. Some have T4s because of a convenient VR drop, but that's it.

If I had to pick what I considered the order in which to pursue T4s:

Alpha- the global boost at the highest level of ED dodging is important. Heck, getting the alpha to T3 should be the first concern since a global level shift is extremely powerful.

Lore- I find the T4 lore pets a heck of a lot better than T3. They do more damage and survive better. For pets that I consider the overdrive you need sometimes, you want as much overdrive as possible.

Destiny- Getting the ones to perma that can be is nice. I've mostly done barrier and rebirth, so those get the perma when it is convenient.

Judgement- I guess this edges out interface simply because you get the damage perks with more targets. if you're gonna nuke, nuke real hard.

Interface- honestly I think that the damage procs are the best option here, and you get the max damage proc % at T3 already, only adding in a 25% boost to the debuff which isn't that big a deal.

The interesting that I would say is that I'd get interface to T3 before I would bother moving judgement past T1. I consider judgment mostly good at T1, with only marginal improvement at the tiers. Of course I would get Lore and Destiny to T3 before judgement and interface because level shifts are everything.

Destiny and Lore T4 very useful...

Judgement and Interface less so but...still a boost to have

alpha t4...well that's a given you'll want that.


I'd say yes it's worth it, but also not to stress. once you get to T3 you have plenty of time to just casually gather the materials needed for the 4th tier.

I am pretty select with what I take to T4..

First off for me only mu signature characters or those that benefit from it greatly get T4 and even with those I might not do T4 in every category. I look at each character individually and access whether its worth it..

Example..

My Elec/Elec blaster went to T4 on Alpha. Judgement and Interface and T3 on Destiny and Lore..

My Fire/Fire Tank did T3.. T4 wasnt worth it for him...

My Elec/SS tank when T4 only on the Alpha for Spiritual.. now he has perma energize..well worth it..

Decide for yourself.. be selective

Depending on the slot, the tier 4 can make a significant difference. Alpha and Lore benefit more from moving from tier 3 to tier 4 than some of the others.

With Destiny, I feel it is somewhat better to have a variety of options at tier 3 rather than having a single tier 4. With some trials favoring particular branches, Clarion for UG for example, I prefer versatility over a moderate increase in the power of effects.