When you think of new ATs, what do you think of?


Anti_Proton

 

Posted

I'd like an AT that lets me play a tribal warrior or fantasy fighter: Somebody who can use both bow and sword reasonably well and take a little punishment without any of those capabilities being at the level of the specialist archetypes.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
I understand your stance, and appreciate your viewpoint, however I'd ask you to please ballpark it based on our established pricing.

Thanks!
In a world where the established pricing for a single power that makes a small man in a green hat follow me about and give me a not very interesting buff is 800 points, and the established pricing for a rather wonderful powerset that I gain many, many hours of fun from is also 800 points?

I would ballpark it at 800 points, as the only remotly plausable way that the two things mentioned above could both be judged to cost 800 points is if there was a technical issue with the shop that has jammed the 'set price for the new item' button on 800 points with no possibility of adjusting it.

In a world where the above assumption is not true, it would be based on both the number of powersets and whether they were new. Depending on how much new stuff is involved, I would probably go up to 2000 points, but that is an upper level and would involve at least two new powersets that do stuff none of the others do.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
I think that the minimum for a new AT would be 1,200 points.
I could live with that.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
I understand your stance, and appreciate your viewpoint, however I'd ask you to please ballpark it based on our established pricing.

Thanks!
I appreciate the response, Zwill, but -in that case- I'm not sure I can do better than this:



480-560 points is my opinion. I don't really feel comfortable offering a false opinion based around prices that I, personally, find to be too high... I suppose I could just tell you that I think powersets should be 400-500 points.

(Still love ya, Zwill)

I honestly just don't agree with the price points, compared to what we used to get for those price points. An expansion cost X amount and now powersets cost a third of an entire expansion? And an AT costs an even greater percentage?
I'm not complaining. I'm simply explaining my slant.

I know prices go up... but when are wages going to go up along with?


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and round up everyone that knows more than they do"
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
I think you underestimate our desire to expand the game in more creative ways.

Counter question:

Let's say, hypothetically, we introduced a new AT, but because of the amount of time and cost it would take to develop it, we had no choice but to offer it in the Paragon Market (a possible scenario).

Based on our established precedents, what do you feel would be a fair price, in Paragon Points?

I'm interested in your responses.

Statement; Fact: New AT: Rikti
Only alternatives; acceptable: Ranged or Assault/Armour
Failure to deliver: Result: Termination: Extreme prejudice

Addition: Acceptable Alternative: Rikti Body Type
Accept: No Substitutes



Please?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benchpresser View Post
FPARN

Honestly Z... Probably the same cost as the MM and Controller are now...
^ This


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drsnapion View Post
^^^This, I'd love to have a pure magic AT. As long as they gave us legit robes to wear with our toons...I hate having to attempt to use kilts as a robe bottom.
What 'pure magic AT'?

Despite certain anomalies (most of which are due to tech limitation, i.e. Masterminds) pretty much any set in this game can be represented by any of the origins. You can throw fire and be tech, natural, magic, science or mutant. Locking any of them, even thematically, is a really really BAD idea.

If you mean more stuff like alternate animations i.e. wands for blast sets, that's a whole other topic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
What 'pure magic AT'?

Despite certain anomalies (most of which are due to tech limitation, i.e. Masterminds) pretty much any set in this game can be represented by any of the origins. You can throw fire and be tech, natural, magic, science or mutant. Locking any of them, even thematically, is a really really BAD idea.

If you mean more stuff like alternate animations i.e. wands for blast sets, that's a whole other topic.
I think he meant something like Blood of the Black Sand or Midnighter...


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If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.

 

Posted

What are the odds of just creating secondaries for Blaster/Dominator that emulate abridged versions of popular melee AT combinations like Spine/Regen or Broad Sword/Shield?

You know, alter the definitions of a preexisting Archetype slightly instead of making a new one.


 

Posted

I know a Melee/Debuff AT is a popular suggestion, but to make it more interesting I'd base them around the "power weapons" concept.

For example, if you chose Katana/Thermal, your Katana would do partial Fire damage, and (optionally) have a fiery look to it. Also, your weapon would be incorporated into your secondary's animations (no redraw). There would still be unarmed sets as well- you would instead have flaming/lightning/radioactive/etc. punches or kicks.

Most of this AT's defense would come from debuffing enemies, but it would probably get some help from its inherent as well.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
I think you underestimate our desire to expand the game in more creative ways.

Counter question:

Let's say, hypothetically, we introduced a new AT, but because of the amount of time and cost it would take to develop it, we had no choice but to offer it in the Paragon Market (a possible scenario).

Based on our established precedents, what do you feel would be a fair price, in Paragon Points?

I'm interested in your responses.
I'd have to agree with the majority here; Same as the other archetypes available on the market.


@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
I think you underestimate our desire to expand the game in more creative ways.

Counter question:

Let's say, hypothetically, we introduced a new AT, but because of the amount of time and cost it would take to develop it, we had no choice but to offer it in the Paragon Market (a possible scenario).

Based on our established precedents, what do you feel would be a fair price, in Paragon Points?

I'm interested in your responses.
omg omg omg omg

Um. I agree with Golden Girl. I'd happily pay 1200 for a new AT.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid View Post
I agree with those that say that it depends on what the AT offers in terms of powersets and options.

If the powersets are new, but you are limited to a single choice for primary and secondary, then price them the same as the epic ATs (1000).

If it will use existing sets like a Range/Defense, Melee/Debuff, or Melee/Control AT, then price it like Controllers and Masterminds (1200).

If the powersets will be radically different, and come with multiple options, then I'd say 1600 points might be acceptable, but it would have to be really innovative.

I wouldn't go any higher than that. If you go above $20 for an AT, you're approaching "didn't I pay $30 for Going Rogue, got 4 powersets, new costumes, and 4 (6 if you count each underground as its own zone) new zones worth of content, with branching options that changed the outcome of my story, along with the tip system and side-switching?" territory, and plenty of people are going to feel ripped off, and wonder what else they could be spending that money on.
Everything I was going to say is right here, down to the point values and everything.

The catch is, where we draw the "awesome enough for 1600 pts" line and were the Devs will draw that line will surely differ. It's quite likely that it'll differ a lot. So, if you're making something along these lines, get player feedback SOONER than later, and expect some problems with making it work.


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Posted

Depending on what the new AT was, I might not be inclined to purchase it at all. But if it's something I'm interested in, and it turns out to not completely suck, I'd expect to pay anywhere between 800-1600 points for it.


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Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
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Posted

My money is now on a brand new Mech AT being constructed and destined for the market...

If this is true, I is happy.
If this stays hypothetical, I is happy they're open to the notion of new ATs.

Win/Win.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius View Post
My money is now on a brand new Mech AT being constructed and destined for the market...
Potentially awesome. Would really require the Mech to be customizable, though.


Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

 

Posted

I did have one idea that came to me in a dream once. Although as far as a City of Heroes AT goes it doesn't fulfill the requirements. Maybe for another game, but not this one.

In my dream they were called Glyph Echoers. The idea goes that leylines of energy were constantly fluctuating through the Earth, and a spiritually attuned person would see the temporary focal points of various forms of energy as glowing symbols and pictures on the ground. By touching the glyphs, that person would have temporary access to the powers that it grants, and some glyph energy can be stored and released later. It is basically like you can shoot beams of fire/ice/sound and stuff or you can store it and get super strength for awhile, except you have to be on or near one of these randomly occurring glyphs to use that power. The dream gets a little weirder later when I have to use those powers to fight off black spider monsters and pokémon...

In all it's specifics it is way too random to be put into... well... anything but it's own game. But, you can take elements from it to apply to an MMO. The closest thing that CoH can have to a Glyph Echoer would be a blaster primary/secondary that would essentially equate to having random powers granted during every use. I suppose you could call it Prismatic Manipulation or Chaotic Blast, where all of the blast powers are of shifting elements with corresponding side effects to each element. The buffs could be random stats, too.

Though this won't go into the game. There is already something kind of like that called Secondary Mutation, and the set itself is just way too random to be of any use, let alone to make 8 or so graphics for every power.



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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
I think you underestimate our desire to expand the game in more creative ways.

Counter question:

Let's say, hypothetically, we introduced a new AT, but because of the amount of time and cost it would take to develop it, we had no choice but to offer it in the Paragon Market (a possible scenario).

Based on our established precedents, what do you feel would be a fair price, in Paragon Points?

I'm interested in your responses.
I know I'm repeating a sentiment, but only in part - same price as we par for ATs already.

THAT said? IF we got new ATs, such as the Melee Support and Ranged / Armor ones I find myself not alone in desiring, I could see another 50% added to that price - at most. Anymore than that and I'd start to lump it into all the other stuff too expensive to buy no matter how much I want it.

EDIT: I'm going to throw two more ideas into the mix here.

First: new tech recently revealed could allow us to play as other characters in the game with their powers usable, as a different form, much like the black panther (pardon me, but I hate that power, the animation's just not feline in any way shape or form) we will be getting at some point that is or was on beta.

Now let's extend this a bit further... I'd kill to be able to have the Tsoo Sorceror outfits - male & female both - available as costume powers but what about other villians like these getting full on AT treatment, even if not truly full-blown. IE, like the panther power - could we see that being looked into if not already, as something purchasable on the Market? That might just fill several whishes made in this thread already.

Secondly: What about, rather than a new AT, an ability to purchase a limited amount of account bound tokens unlocking a third powerset for any character of you're choice, irreversible once made, that replaces the Epic / Patron pools but is available much sooner in character development, say, as an example, level 24 onwards?

Examples? Sure.
Blaster - Dual Pistols / Energy / Martial Arts. Maelstrom.
Tank - Elec Armour / Axe / Storm. The tank of my dreams.
Stalker - Claws / Ninjitsu / Mind Control. Fortunatas eat your hearts out.

You do THAT? And you wipe away any need for more Archetypes to be added to the game in one, fell, swoop.

And on that potential bombshell, I'll leave ye.

~Raven


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
I think you underestimate our desire to expand the game in more creative ways.

Counter question:

Let's say, hypothetically, we introduced a new AT, but because of the amount of time and cost it would take to develop it, we had no choice but to offer it in the Paragon Market (a possible scenario).

Based on our established precedents, what do you feel would be a fair price, in Paragon Points?

I'm interested in your responses.

Given the development required, and working on the basis this is a "unique" AT - I think that somewhere between 1.5x the cost of an existing purchasable AT (MM/Controllers etc)

I think if Paragon went over 2x that cost, it has the potential to be seen as a "rip off" but the same price as a regular AT makes it seem almost too cheap.



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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
Based on our established precedents, what do you feel would be a fair price, in Paragon Points?
If you build it, they will come.


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Posted

Golly gee, Zwill. We paid $40 for CoV. We got 5 new archetypes with that (and a ton of content and costumes and bases). So that's $8/archetype. Inflate that up to $10/archetype and you get 800 points.

There ya go.

What you're charging now for controllers and MMs for Premium players isn't useful when the new AT would never be available for VIPs for free. Controllers and MMs both become available after X amount of paragon-points spent or with VIP status. So charging Premiums for access to those ATs is just kind of a 'premium' tax. We know you didn't spend more time to develop those ATs for the premiums. In fact, it probably TOOK development time to deny access to the ATs to premiums.

So a new non-free-to-VIPs AT is not comparable to access to Controllers and MMs for Prems.

It's most comparable to new powersets. And those are already 800 points. So there you go. 800 points.

I'm assuming, of course, that these are some sort of 'epic' AT and not a full-fledged normal AT that's going to have access to a lot of similar powers to other ATs. That's another kind of question.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
Let's say, hypothetically, we introduced a new AT, but because of the amount of time and cost it would take to develop it, we had no choice but to offer it in the Paragon Market (a possible scenario).

Based on our established precedents, what do you feel would be a fair price, in Paragon Points?
That depends. If it's an AT I have no interest in, then I really have no stake in discussing prices since I wouldn't want to play it anyway. However, this also excludes me from the discussion, so let's assume for the sake of hypothesis that I AM interested in this AT.

If you guys can create a new AT with which to expand the breadth of characters I create, then I can easily see myself paying for it anywhere from the price of the existing locked ATs to around double that. I know that a new AT would be a massive undertaking and I know it would represent a massive boost in my enjoyment of the game, so a one-time large lump payment seems justified.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
I think you underestimate our desire to expand the game in more creative ways.

Counter question:

Let's say, hypothetically, we introduced a new AT, but because of the amount of time and cost it would take to develop it, we had no choice but to offer it in the Paragon Market (a possible scenario).

Based on our established precedents, what do you feel would be a fair price, in Paragon Points?

I'm interested in your responses.
If it's an AT which is made up of currently existing sets with their own inherent and mods (eg an Assault/Pets AT) 400 points. The bulk of the work is done in terms of artwork & FX, some powers may need to be tweaked (like the Pet Attacks most likely). Any new sets added specifically for this new AT (say you decided to add Whip Assault at the same time) would be the standard 800 on top of that (but would also apply to Domis)

If it's a new EAT 1600, if we're talking a new EAT which comes in multiple flavours this seems fair for the lot. In real terms that's 20 quid.


 

Posted

Something totally new and never seen before. None of this lets reskin this powerset and add some fluff and hope they do not notice this is something already in the game. This game is getting old and stale so at this point we need something totally new. I will say this adding more ATs could easily hurt existing ones. The way VEATs hurt stalkers and to a lesser extent doms when they first came out. Kheldians on the other hand are so subpar that they do not step on anyones toes so it was never truely an issue.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
I think you underestimate our desire to expand the game in more creative ways.

Counter question:

Let's say, hypothetically, we introduced a new AT, but because of the amount of time and cost it would take to develop it, we had no choice but to offer it in the Paragon Market (a possible scenario).

Based on our established precedents, what do you feel would be a fair price, in Paragon Points?

I'm interested in your responses.
To echo many others here, based on current pricing models, I'd say that 1200-1600 points seems fair, depending on how involved the AT powersets are. Again, if it's just EAT-type one or two primary/secondary choices, or it's just a combination of two halves of two other ATs (melee/buffs with scrapper primaries and corruptor secondaries, for example), then closer to 1200. If it's got all new art/animations and new primary/secondary powersets, then 1600 to even 1800 would be fair.


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