When you think of new ATs, what do you think of?
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Anti_Proton,
Posted on: 2012-03-24 14:10 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Hmmm...|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Let's say, hypothetically, we introduced a new AT, but because of the amount of time and cost it would take to develop it, we had no choice but to offer it in the Paragon Market (a possible scenario).
Based on our established precedents, what do you feel would be a fair price, in Paragon Points? I'm interested in your responses. |
I think it depends on the versatility and variety of the new AT. If it's limited to 2-4 selections, like Kheldians (light/dark) or Arachnos (widow/fort/bane/crab) I could see paying 800-1200 points for it. You're basically buying a powerset, after all.
If it was some new hybrid class which proliferated a lot of stuff from other sets, say some sort of melee support class or ranged tanker, I can see 1200-1600 for it given it'll have a LOT of options to pick from and thus a lot of longevity. If I can start multiple alts and feel different with each one depending on the combos I select from, it's worth more money because it gives me more playtime.
It's really tough to throw out hypothetical numbers, because I'd need an idea of what the AT can do and how much variety it's got before I can decide what money I'd throw at it.
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I'd say the same amount as the other ATs available on the market. However, I'd like to think that two new ATs would be made - one hero and one villain. Preferably something to make Summoning and Control sets more widespread.
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I think the same as the archetypes we pay for now.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
I think you underestimate our desire to expand the game in more creative ways.
Counter question: Let's say, hypothetically, we introduced a new AT, but because of the amount of time and cost it would take to develop it, we had no choice but to offer it in the Paragon Market (a possible scenario). Based on our established precedents, what do you feel would be a fair price, in Paragon Points? I'm interested in your responses. |
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A full archetype with multiple primary/secondary choices?|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Based on our established precedents, what do you feel would be a fair price, in Paragon Points?
I'm interested in your responses. |
I'd happily pay 5000 points for a full AT with multiple choices. Especially if the mechanics were new on one or both of the sets (primary/secondary) -- ie, corruptors are basically an inverted defender, but MM primaries were unique. If we got a unique mechanic in either the primary or the secondary, I'd be even more supportive. (Even if I had to pay normal powerset prices for additional primary/secondary choices beyond 1)
I would have to say I fall into the camp suggesting that it be the same as what MMs/Controllers/EATs cost to unlock.
However, my concern would be if it's 800 PP to unlock the AT itself, but you then had to purchase powersets within that AT. Would this hypothetical new AT come with 'bundled' powersets? Like:
New! <insert name here> - [800 | 1200] PP
Includes:
xxx Primary Powerset
yyy Primary Powerset
zzz Primary Powerset
...
aaa Secondary Powerset
bbb Secondary Powerset
ccc Secondary Powerset
...
Given development time, if that were the case, I wouldn't be too unhappy paying 1200 PP for a brand new AT with remixed and/or brand new powersets that we got a few of as part of our purchase.
But I think about what it potentially costs for a Freemium player to make a Time Manipulation character (800 PP to unlock Controllers, 800 PP to unlock Time Manipulation), and those points really start to add up quick. My feeling is that if we're going to drop a bunch of points for a new AT, we need to be able to use it right off the bat without having to pay even more.
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Counter-counter question:|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
I think you underestimate our desire to expand the game in more creative ways.
Counter question: Let's say, hypothetically, we introduced a new AT, but because of the amount of time and cost it would take to develop it, we had no choice but to offer it in the Paragon Market (a possible scenario). Based on our established precedents, what do you feel would be a fair price, in Paragon Points? I'm interested in your responses. |
Let's say this hypothetical AT was being considered.. what's the possibility it could be free to tier 9 VIPs?
Assuming that's not possible, 2000 points, 1200 for VIPs. That said, this hypothetical powerset would have to be something I would not regret unlocking later. It would also need to not be as origin restricting as the EATs.
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I'd expect people to be willing to pay around $15-$20 for a new EAT given the current price of ATs in the market. Maybe $25 if the EAT came with a really in-depth story arc.|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Let's say, hypothetically, we introduced a new AT, but because of the amount of time and cost it would take to develop it, we had no choice but to offer it in the Paragon Market (a possible scenario).
Based on our established precedents, what do you feel would be a fair price, in Paragon Points? |
I don't exactly think that's too terribly crazy since an EAT as it currently stands has two powersets (expanded though they may be) and a story shared with their paired EAT. Current 'from scratch' powersets that contain unique animations and mechanics are going for $10 and the entirety of First Ward content is $7.50. So maybe $12.50 for the AT itself and $7.50+ for the 1-50 story content unique to the AT (and maybe its paired EAT if it gets one) but then the story content's free for VIPs? That way you're not too far price currently on the market for Khelds and Arachnos.
That said though, I'd gladly pay for interesting EATs. I've always found them to be a fascinating idea and I really wish we had more of them (Will pay for Coralax EAT ....).
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If it's an AT that's locked into its power sets (like the existing EATs), then 1000 PP.
If it's an AT that lets you choose different existing power sets (like Assault/Defense or Melee/Debuff, just as examples), then 800 PP. I personally feel that Controllers and Masterminds are overpriced.
If it's an AT that lets you choose different power sets AND has new sets included in the purchase price, then I could see myself paying up to 1600 PP, but probably no more.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
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It would depend on how many power sets it has access to. If it is like EATs then same as they are in the market now. If it is more like the core ATs then I could see an increased cost because of increased options.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
I think you underestimate our desire to expand the game in more creative ways.
Counter question: Let's say, hypothetically, we introduced a new AT, but because of the amount of time and cost it would take to develop it, we had no choice but to offer it in the Paragon Market (a possible scenario). Based on our established precedents, what do you feel would be a fair price, in Paragon Points? I'm interested in your responses. |
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Well, for the data point, Zwill...
I, personally, think that 480-560 points is the correct price for a new AT.
Before anyone tries to compare this price to existing prices... I happen to think that many current prices are greatly overpriced.
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See, for me that's part of the interesting bit of EATs. They're much more structured from both a visual and storyline standpoint when compared to the normal ATs.|
Originally Posted by Mystic_Fortune
It would also need to not be as origin restricting as the EATs.
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You can already make so many character concepts within the normal game, but with EATs you get the specific in-game visuals, lore and story arc to go along with it.
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Well...
1) I would expand individual powersets by a power or two to provide each AT with an added options for versatility that could circumvent the need for further AT creation (Ex. melee attack options in an MM set).
2) I would also look at allowing a tertiary powerset selection to these same ends
3) I would introduce any potential ATs as EATs (read; one-shots) to test the waters and not burden the Dev team as much as creating an AT set that involves creating, proliferating and/or otherwise modifying a large number of powersets to fill it.
4) I would say normalize and expand the current EATs (to a degree) into an AT set: (Ex. Kheld/SoA mechanics to a Ranged/Armor class or even into an expanded version of the 'shape-shifter' (power-shifting) class)
5) A Skirmisher class - short ranged (30'-40'); fast recharge, lighter damage attacks with secondaries that consist of lighter impact self-buffs and heals
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Don't these two things already kind-of sort-of exist with the Ancillary Power Pools? If we had a whole new powerset I think we'd really start to dilute the ATs more then they already kind of have been.
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Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
1) I would expand individual powersets by a power or two to provide each AT with an added options for versatility that could circumvent the need for further AT creation (Ex. melee attack options in an MM set).
2) I would also look at allowing a tertiary powerset selection to these same ends |
MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812
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A new archtype with more than 3 or so unique primary and secondary options? Over 2500 pts easy. |
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
I think you underestimate our desire to expand the game in more creative ways.
Counter question: Let's say, hypothetically, we introduced a new AT, but because of the amount of time and cost it would take to develop it, we had no choice but to offer it in the Paragon Market (a possible scenario). Based on our established precedents, what do you feel would be a fair price, in Paragon Points? I'm interested in your responses. |
Something like Khelds? 1600. The price for two new powersets.
MA/Rad "scrapper" AT with same sets and different mods? No more than 1200.
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The Ancillary/Epic Pools do cover this to a very limited extent but it wouldn't be the same as having access to a full second set of attacks, buffs or armors. (I wouldn't have the 3rd set be outside the parameters of the primary/secondary (ex. Blasters would get access to another Primary or Secondary (sans additional BUs) set but not an Armor, Buff or Pet set))|
Originally Posted by Oliin
Don't these two things already kind-of sort-of exist with the Ancillary Power Pools? If we had a whole new powerset I think we'd really start to dilute the ATs more then they already kind of have been.
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We wouldn't be creating new sets from scratch; we'd just provide the majority portion of an existing Primary or Secondary from within their AT for them to choose powers from. I would say with no additional slotting until they can work out whatever issue(s) it was that kept them from doing so for the Freedom release.
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Expanding existing Primaries/Secondaries by a power or two would give more options; akin to what Khelds/SoAs have now. Sometimes, its the availability of the powers within the set that could provide enough of a role shift to where an entire AT overhaul might not be necessary.
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Hm... Well, I feel that some prices are a wee bit inflated, but if I had to say it, I'd be willing to pay 800-900 for an EAT, or 1000-1100 for a normal AT, provided it had a fair number of powersets available.
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Possibility very unlikely due to the overall development cost and time required for a full on AT (We've investigated it).
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Originally Posted by Mystic_Fortune
Counter-counter question:
Let's say this hypothetical AT was being considered.. what's the possibility it could be free to tier 9 VIPs? Assuming that's not possible, 2000 points, 1200 for VIPs. That said, this hypothetical powerset would have to be something I would not regret unlocking later. It would also need to not be as origin restricting as the EATs. |
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
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The same price you would charge for access to the MM or Controller ATs as a normalized cost (EAT prices if you're just talking about a new 'EAT'). For initial release though, maybe a bit more (1800)(1200 for EATs).|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
I think you underestimate our desire to expand the game in more creative ways.
Counter question: Let's say, hypothetically, we introduced a new AT, but because of the amount of time and cost it would take to develop it, we had no choice but to offer it in the Paragon Market (a possible scenario). Based on our established precedents, what do you feel would be a fair price, in Paragon Points? I'm interested in your responses. |
VIPs should get them at a deep discount or as part of their subscription.
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I understand your stance, and appreciate your viewpoint, however I'd ask you to please ballpark it based on our established pricing. |
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Well, for the data point, Zwill...
I, personally, think that 480-560 points is the correct price for a new AT. Before anyone tries to compare this price to existing prices... I happen to think that many current prices are greatly overpriced. |
Thanks!
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
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Just on the off chance you didn't already know, but that's about 100-200 points lower than the existing options go for in the store. Khelds and Arachnos are 1000 and MMs/Controllers are 1200.
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Originally Posted by Kirsten
Hm... Well, I feel that some prices are a wee bit inflated, but if I had to say it, I'd be willing to pay 800-900 for an EAT, or 1000-1100 for a normal AT, provided it had a fair number of powersets available.
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MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812
I think that the minimum for a new AT would be 1,200 points.
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zwill, thanks for asking our opinion about this, seeing as how it's hypothetical and all. I have to agree with some of the previous posters, that the answer would be entirely dependent on what exactly we're hypothesizing. |
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
I think you underestimate our desire to expand the game in more creative ways.
Counter question: Let's say, hypothetically, we introduced a new AT, but because of the amount of time and cost it would take to develop it, we had no choice but to offer it in the Paragon Market (a possible scenario). Based on our established precedents, what do you feel would be a fair price, in Paragon Points? I'm interested in your responses. |
*To begin with, I'd use 800 pp as the base price, and work up from there depending on what the thing does. 800 is just like unlocking an AT is, and just like buying the purchasable powerset (this is assuming the unlock and the powerset are inclusive).
WhY? Because if it's not, if I have to buy both of them just to play one character, heck, I'm buying staff fighting, you know? I'm sorry if it represents far more dev hours, but I just want a new set to play with, and the fact that it might have taken you all more time to create, does not make it worth more money to me.
*BUT, if the hypothetical new AT is a one-shot, like a kheld, or a SoA, in that one really does reasonably have two quite distinctive powersets in one (PB/WS and NW/Fort), I'd put that as being worth 1000pp. Two-in-one does not double the cost - they are the same root powersets, merely the method in which they are played branches out halfway through the build. But they're still AT one-shots - I don't have 6 different primaries and 6 different secondaries from which to choose, or my PB would not still be lvl 27, after 4 years.
*If the hypothetical new AT is going to be incorporated into the general list of AT's, and primaries and secondaries are going to be proliferated and interchangeable, that is a whole other thing - that thing is far, far more valuable to me than any of the above. So, naturally, I want that to be free.
"Say WHAT?!" I can already hear you thinking, complete with a picture involving either a cat or Tommy Lee Jones. "WHY would that VERY VALUABLE thing cost NOTHING?!" Because as VIP's, we've become accustomed to having our AT's for free. It's not exactly an entitlement when a precedent has been set with 100% compliance from you, our beloved CoX dev. team - at this point, it's a standard. What it WILL do, is bring back old players. It will draw in new players. It will charge up your base. Then you start to sell everything else in higher quantities. Long-term profit, however. You could also charge for the set (800pp, you've established that) and say that the new AT is free with powerset purchase for VIP's, and 800 for premium/free. And, you could also explain to us that you will have to charge for the new AT sets for awhile, to pay for it.
Hey, maybe instead of charging everyone more, you could do like public television does, and have a fund drive. "We need to sell 1,000,000 Super Packs to get this AT launched!" You could even move that weird thermometer thing from the Tier Tree, and us that to show us how many more packs we'd need to buy!
Ok, maybe not. There might be a reason I'm not in marketing.
Look, I don't like being nickel and dimed. But I honestly don't feel the same way about investing money to make this a better game. Broadening the scope of options available to us like an entire new powerset seems like something worthwhile to invest in. Maybe the difference isn't just in what you charge, but how you present this to us, too? Is it a "special, limited-time offer, buy now!", or is it just you guys being straight with us, just like you are doing now?
Well, hypothetically speaking, of course.
I agree with those that say that it depends on what the AT offers in terms of powersets and options.
If the powersets are new, but you are limited to a single choice for primary and secondary, then price them the same as the epic ATs (1000).
If it will use existing sets like a Range/Defense, Melee/Debuff, or Melee/Control AT, then price it like Controllers and Masterminds (1200).
If the powersets will be radically different, and come with multiple options, then I'd say 1600 points might be acceptable, but it would have to be really innovative.
I wouldn't go any higher than that. If you go above $20 for an AT, you're approaching "didn't I pay $30 for Going Rogue, got 4 powersets, new costumes, and 4 (6 if you count each underground as its own zone) new zones worth of content, with branching options that changed the outcome of my story, along with the tip system and side-switching?" territory, and plenty of people are going to feel ripped off, and wonder what else they could be spending that money on.
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^^^This, I'd love to have a pure magic AT. As long as they gave us legit robes to wear with our toons...I hate having to attempt to use kilts as a robe bottom.
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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
I imagine the powersets for this set would feature a branching AT system like SoAs. Also, while tied in with the lore, this would also basically allow the Devs to, for once, go hogwild and make a purely magically themed powerset and animations, which is something some players have hoped for.
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I would say the same price charged to premium players for access to masterminds, controllers and epic ATs.
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