When you think of new ATs, what do you think of?
By
Anti_Proton,
Posted on: 2012-03-24 14:10 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
A 'paladin' style AT might be good.
Melee primary with team buffs/heals secondary
Basically a cross between scrapper and corruptor
A meleer with CC maybe, would be very similar to dom but with melee attacks rather than mix of melee and ranged.
Developing the new ACs would take too much tbh as they're jus be taking the primary of an existing AC and secondray from a different AC. They'd just need to come up with AC sepsific abilit
The idea of an MM that's role reverced might be fun, AC is ther to do damaege and pets are there for support with a mix of abilities. The spare slots gained from the mm attaks going woild be replaced by otherthing like temp pet boost buff to inhance one pets powers single with short CD, and all pets with long CD, etc
To make the different to MMs I'd suggest less pets, still get 3-4 each earns seperatly
eg using therm rad
1: Warth, Caurterise, Thaw (heal pet)
2: Thermal shield, plasma shield, Forge (buff pet)
3: Heat exaustion, Melt armour, (debuff pet)
Possibly also if not OP:
4: (from fire control) Char, Fire cages, Flashfire (CC pet) ?
PBAoE Support & Shields/PBAoE Attacks & Controls
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
I'd like to see something that could be better at recreating the "power armour" style character. So something like ranged/defence or, better yet, assault/defence.
I mean, the Crab Spider does that pretty well right now, but you're rather nailed into a specific concept with a Crab.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
The trouble with CoH/V is they used the word 'Archetype' as their classes, and the two are not usually the same in games.
Most suggestions seem to be hybridization and that's not a real 'new AT' to me because if you look at games with hybrids, they always build to fall into an existing AT while taking advantage of some hybrid function to gain leverage over the purist of that AT.
The tank/mage hybrid classes for example usually build as a tank AT and grab specific mage self buffs to make them more resilient vs some types of attacks than a regular tank. People don't subclass their warrior into mage or healer to shoot crappy spells, they do it to get a buff, a shout, a self heal to solo with, some utility, or a debuff that stacks with their weapon like making an opponent be knocked down to use a melee skill that does extra damage vs enemies that are knocked down.
People tunnel visioning on CoH/V think they are 'missing' that class, but it's really just being done in the opposite direction. We have different power sets to pick from within a preformed AT with different strengths and weaknesses. We have the same options, we just pick the AT ahead of time instead of spawning as a class and building towards an AT.
We also hybrid just as well as most games do through epic/ancillary/patron pools. Most games don't let you fully nuke at range like a boss while still being as tough and offensive as a regular melee. CoH can do a tough character with a few blasts, or a blast character that hits some decent defense marks, again, preformed AT's picked ahead of time instead of built towards while leveling, but the same end-game options and not a 'missing class'.
The only actual ARCHETYPE missing that I can think of is the melee support AT.
Paladin being the classic fantasy example with no universal equivalent for other settings. They are fighters which also support in ways that make sense for a fighter.
CoH implementation would be PBAoE buff toggles which don't interrupt their meleeing to make them reposition or retarget, very strong heals that let them be meaningful next to purists, but on a timer that prevents them from building and taking over that 'healer' AT.
And they would need something linked to melee... think something like StJ's combo system where finishers at 3 combo points are support actions rather than damage actions, or support actions that cost endurance but endurance starts at zero and is built up by attacking in melee. (or some new AT specific resource)
As for the pet class AT suggestions, I think the MM is more flexible than people give it credit for. There is no universal cosmic law that says all future sets for the MM must follow the 3/2/1 tiered system mixed with buffs and ranged attacks. A few edits to descriptions of the AT might be needed for lore purposes, but that's all that stands between the devs and adding differently structured primary sets.
You don't even need to fool with the secondary sets because the pets can fill in whatever the primary set is missing. For example, if you felt a primary set needed armor powers like a melee character, you can just have one of the pets cast armor buffs on the MM. Need them strong? Make the buff cast ONLY on the MM and not other pets/players so it's not overpowered. Lots of room for this conversant to go in lots of directions.
We have EATS for Heroes and VEATS for villains, so I think the Preatorians need a couple too.
On one side you could have a 'Disciple of Hamidon', an elemental blaster/support, able to spit out shards of crystal, hurl boulders, spore pods and also able to summon DE eminators and seedlings.
On the other you could have 'dedicated Loyalist' Someone who still belives in Coles message. I dunno what powers they could have though, maybe an inverted mastermind, with a range of support and melee attacks but able to summon and LEAD (not control) groups of Loyalists.
Rockshock (Druid Tanker), Medicat (Combat Medic), Dwarf From the North (Ice Mage), Rocket Gal (Energy Blaster), Graveborn (Undead Mastermind), Streeker (Punching Speedster), Op. Sidewinder (Recluse's pet Spider)
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PEATs would be pretty neat, maybe IDF Ranger for loyalists and freed Seers for resistance |
Originally Posted by Rockshock
We have EATS for Heroes and VEATS for villains, so I think the Preatorians need a couple too.
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New AT?
A Melee/Buff-debuff AT would be something new.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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and my vote is a Cimmeroran EAT.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
New AT?
A Melee/Buff-debuff AT would be something new. |
they already have melee healers and buffers/debuffs among the Cimmerorans
It would make a decent paladin type as well with armor and a sword
Rikti Epic Archetype: Still superior
Alternate suggestions: Inferior
Domination: Assured
Victory: Inevitable
Wait: Annoying
That and a Dual Pistols/Super Reflexes character. Or Blast/Armour or Assault/Armour. That's one major concept hole right there.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Actually, they don't.|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
and my vote is a Cimmeroran EAT.
they already have melee healers and buffers/debuffs among the Cimmerorans It would make a decent paladin type as well with armor and a sword |
Surgeons have no attacks or defences whatsoever. They just have rapid fire heals and a rez, which is what makes them so annoying.
But the idea is still there, I get that.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I would like it if more game developers thought like you. | I tried doing this as a thought experiment and rapidly realized why I wasn't a game developer, because all I could come up with was Melee/Buffer and Ranged/Shields. |
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No... no, because the game would bear a suspicious resemblance to sims 2.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
I would like it if more game developers thought like you.
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In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.
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OK, so then which "Archetype" can allow me to throw fireballs, use fire swords, punch people with fire and use fire shields at the same time without any of these being token afterthougths?
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Originally Posted by VKhaun
People tunnel visioning on CoH/V think they are 'missing' that class, but it's really just being done in the opposite direction. We have different power sets to pick from within a preformed AT with different strengths and weaknesses. We have the same options, we just pick the AT ahead of time instead of spawning as a class and building towards an AT.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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the trick of course being your "token afterthoughts"|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
OK, so then which "Archetype" can allow me to throw fireballs, use fire swords, punch people with fire and use fire shields at the same time without any of these being token afterthougths?
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so I assume you mean:
has ranged damage like a blaster
melee damage like a scrapper
and defenses like a scrapper
and presumably the answer is you will never have 3 powersets worth of power
whereas of course you can in game make a character that has the powers already.
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I think that assumption falls on it's face, because no one (in their right mind) would ask to have that sort of power level across the board.|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
the trick of course being your "token afterthoughts"
so I assume you mean: has ranged damage like a blaster melee damage like a scrapper and defenses like a scrapper and presumably the answer is you will never have 3 powersets worth of power whereas of course you can in game make a character that has the powers already. |
Having a character who could use ranged or ranged/melee (assault) and have shields/defences would need it's own power scale. So, while it likely wouldn't be as hitty as a scrapper or as blasty as a blaster or as defensive as a Brute/Tank it would still be able to do a mixture that the others can't. A halfway house.
People instantly assume people want tank mages. They also conveniently seem to forget that that argument hasn't held true for the ATs that ALREADY mix blasts, melee and armour, along with limited buff/control, and that those ATs are HEAT and VEATs.
The Devs know how to balance ATs. I'd just like to see them fill in the concept holes that are still there, such as Ranged(or Assault)/Armour and the Melee/Support that lots of people have requested. I personally don't see the point of Melee/Support, but I've certainly noticed it being a frequent request so, hey, why not?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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An Assault / Pets AT or EAT would be fun. I'm certainly hoping that Paragon Studios have a couple of ideas for EATs on the way.
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Originally Posted by Rockshock
We have EATS for Heroes and VEATS for villains, so I think the Preatorians need a couple too.
On one side you could have a 'Disciple of Hamidon', an elemental blaster/support, able to spit out shards of crystal, hurl boulders, spore pods and also able to summon DE eminators and seedlings. On the other you could have 'dedicated Loyalist' Someone who still belives in Coles message. I dunno what powers they could have though, maybe an inverted mastermind, with a range of support and melee attacks but able to summon and LEAD (not control) groups of Loyalists. |
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My variant on this would be a MM pet as secondary and then I would take advantage of the new four legged rig and do a transformation style power set for the main AT with a mixed focus on defense and attack (a bit like the Kheldian ATs works). It would be a damage oriented AT with a transformation as the basis for it, but where you would have to make some hard choices of having either defenses and melee attacks or use the range attacks of the secondary. This would enable them to make MM powersets more widespread/generally available), provide a different flavor for PET, less a mastermind and more a one with the pack or Packleader AT. Also it would enable the designers to easily make a bunch of matched pairs for power sets ie:|
Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
A Leader AT, complement to the Mastermind AT. They'd have modified versions of the MM pets; the pets would do less damage and more support. The Leader Primary would consist of henchmen summoning and basic armor powers, the Leader Secondary would be a melee attack set. The Inherent would be sort of a combination of an inverted MM Supremacy and Tanker Gauntlet; being near your pets boosts your attacks and defenses, while attacking the enemy draws aggro to you and away from the pets. The idea being that you have a pet control character who leads from the front; you attack, and the pets support you.
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Beastmastery + Werewolf type powerset (could be wolves, lions or even dire wolf whatever)
Demon Summoning + Demon type powerset
Robotics + Cyborg/clockwork/something?
Mercenaries + Commander type in the best fifth column type (Reichsman and his soldiers basically)
Necromancy + vampire/wraith/ghost?
Ninjas + some sort of oni?
Thugs + umm not sure.
anyway that is sorta what I would like to see.
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While designing something totally new might be an idea it doesn't have to be so complicated as that|
Originally Posted by VKhaun
The only actual ARCHETYPE missing that I can think of is the melee support AT.
Paladin being the classic fantasy example with no universal equivalent for other settings. They are fighters which also support in ways that make sense for a fighter. CoH implementation would be PBAoE buff toggles which don't interrupt their meleeing to make them reposition or retarget, very strong heals that let them be meaningful next to purists, but on a timer that prevents them from building and taking over that 'healer' AT. And they would need something linked to melee... think something like StJ's combo system where finishers at 3 combo points are support actions rather than damage actions, or support actions that cost endurance but endurance starts at zero and is built up by attacking in melee. (or some new AT specific resource) |
Think of the corruptor. Ranged with a secondary heal/support
Depending on spec and group they may end up pure damage, pure healing or a combo of damage, healing and/or buffs.
The easiest option for a paladin style class would be to do a similar thing but with melee.
ie whereas corruptor has 'blaster' primaries the paladin would have 'scrapper' primaries
The only new thing they'd really have to come up with is archetype power
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then he can play a tanker and have fire shields, fire melee, and fire epp with a fireball right now|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I think that assumption falls on it's face, because no one (in their right mind) would ask to have that sort of power level across the board.
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if he just wants those powers he can already have them.
Assault/Support
Melee/Support
The only 2 things I'd really care to see.
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Drowning hellions in a ladderless pool? Sign me up. | No... no, because the game would bear a suspicious resemblance to sims 2. |
When you think of new ATs, what do you think of?
Honestly, this:
I'm serious. Yeah, I just don't seem to come up with much regarding further AT ideas... beyond shapeshifters and Mechsuit type things which theoretically could be done via ATs.
Anyway, my apologies for the pic... now back to your good-read, productive thread.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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I think you underestimate our desire to expand the game in more creative ways. |
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
I think if the devs have their choice there will be no new AT.
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Counter question:
Let's say, hypothetically, we introduced a new AT, but because of the amount of time and cost it would take to develop it, we had no choice but to offer it in the Paragon Market (a possible scenario).
Based on our established precedents, what do you feel would be a fair price, in Paragon Points?
I'm interested in your responses.
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
FPARN
Honestly Z... Probably the same cost as the MM and Controller are now...
"Well, there's going to be some light music and a short note of apology saying, 'The universe ended last week, we're really sorry, we don't know what you're doing here, didn't you get the message?'"- Steve Moffat
a thugs/katana would have the character doing a lot of damage. Use the thugs in bodyguard mode for your protection
In which case, I would love to play a bots/katana character.
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