Mag 4 mez protection is really the only viable option because of the power sets that have "offensive toggles" as mitigation (Hot Feet, Lightening Field, Chilling Embrace). If you get mezzed even for a second you are detoggled and lose your mitigation until it recharges. In high level content it's pointless to even have these powers since they are off most of the time. Mag 4 means that you can handle facing off against 1 mezzer and survive the alpha mez but you can't survive 2 mezzers or 2 applications of the same type mez. You'll still need to use the occasional breakfree instead of one (or even 2) every spawn.
I could get behind no mez protection and 1000% resistance to mez if those toggles were recoded as "defensive toggles" so that they didn't drop on mez. 1000% mez resistance would mean that blasters were still affected by mez and the toggle powers that they do have would suppress during the mez but the mez would only last 1/10 its usual duration. That would make those 30 second holds/stuns last a more appropriate 3 seconds for an AT that lacks meaningful defenses, resistances, buffs, and debuffs.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Blasters need zippo for fixes really, but certainly with mez there is an extra special lack of a change needed, at all.
Blasters have it soooo easy now with mez. I almost never even bother with breakfrees when teaming.
I leveled my main back before the changes to what we have now. This is still heaven to me.
(and get off my lawn you annoying kids!)
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
Would it be possible for you to say that in English?
I honestly have no idea what you just said.
I said.
I believe blaster need zero changes. Particularly in regards to mez, where they have a real advantage.
(and yeah, some bad typing in that. sorry)
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
It is my unpopular opinion to remove the pew pew pew T1 and T2 attacks while mezzed.
@Deadboy
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I know I don't really need any change with regards to mez on my blasters, but then I also don't really play my leveling blasters at the high difficulties that I can on any of my melee characters. So I generally can defeat what mezed me before it takes me out using my T1 and T2 attacks.|
Originally Posted by Chyll
I believe blaster need zero changes. Particularly in regards to mez, where they have a real advantage.
|
I don't really feel comfortable saying blasters need no changes with regard to mez because of that though and I'm really not sure what advantage they have because of defiance.
All the other damage ATs either have mez protection which keeps them from being mezed in the first place (in most cases) or have powers that work like break frees. Blasters can use their three lowest tier powers. In one case one of those powers is melee range(though I think it possibly functions the best for keeping me alive while mezed) and in another case it actually does no damage at all.
I'm not trying to say defiance's attacking through mez sucks, but I don't see it as an advantage over what the other damage ATs have either. It's just kind of there, and for me it works fairly well to be honest.
MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812
Quote:
Maybe there is the difference. I compare it to what all ATs get, not just the "damage" ATs... and while it isn't tank, brute, etc. mez def/resistance, it is considerably more than trollers, defs, corrs, etc. get. And when you consider Blasters used to get nothing, I like the current state pretty well.
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Originally Posted by Oliin
I know I don't really need any change with regards to mez on my blasters, but then I also don't really play my leveling blasters at the high difficulties that I can on any of my melee characters. So I generally can defeat what mezed me before it takes me out using my T1 and T2 attacks.
I don't really feel comfortable saying blasters need no changes with regard to mez because of that though and I'm really not sure what advantage they have because of defiance. All the other damage ATs either have mez protection which keeps them from being mezed in the first place (in most cases) or have powers that work like break frees. Blasters can use their three lowest tier powers. In one case one of those powers is melee range(though I think it possibly functions the best for keeping me alive while mezed) and in another case it actually does no damage at all. I'm not trying to say defiance's attacking through mez sucks, but I don't see it as an advantage over what the other damage ATs have either. It's just kind of there, and for me it works fairly well to be honest. |
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
Quote:
Personally I'm pretty much ok with what we have now with regards to mez but that doesn't mean that it's outside the realm of possibility that blasters do need more to that effect. I mean just because something's been improved once and is better than it used to be doesn't mean it won't ever need further adjustment in the future. Not that I exactly think it's the area of blasters that needs improvement though.|
Originally Posted by Chyll
Maybe there is the difference. I compare it to what all ATs get, not just the "damage" ATs... and while it isn't tank, brute, etc. mez def/resistance, it is considerably more than trollers, defs, corrs, etc. get. And when you consider Blasters used to get nothing, I like the current state pretty well.
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I've still always thought those four other ATs had better ways of dealing with mez than most blasters did before they got the partial mez protection thing. They had really solid debuffs, good buffs, shields with partial mez resistances in them (controllers even get a mez resistance shield in their ancillary pool), and masterminds have their pets that can act even while their owner is being held. Now there's still unfortunate powerset combinations there that'll have problems with mez, but the ATs as a whole had less issues with mez than blasters used to.
So I've always considered giving blasters partial mez protection in defiance to be more of a raising them up to be somewhat on-par with the rest of the ATs in the game than giving them an advantage over any other AT. Not that I suppose that's any consolation to a thermal defender or anything.
MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812
I do not think "mez counteraction" is the place where Blasters are lacking. The fact that I can still attack while mezzed is spot-on for the Blaster definition, in my opinion (I find the T1 immobilizations to be invaluable in those situations).
A Blaster who is playing at a suitable level of difficulty, who takes a moment to find the problem targets (CoT mages, Malta Sappers, etc.), who uses a ranged attack to pull around a corner or to a door way, and who focuses their attention on the problem target, should never be overwhelmed to the point where they quickly die, regardless of whether they are mezzed or not.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
If your playing on a 0/0 or 0/1 setting then you should not have any issues regarding mez. If you do its a personal problem not a game problem.
BUT
If you go higher up the difficulty ladder then yes mez does play a larger part and matters much more for blasters. No blaster can kill off enough mobs on a 2/8 setting to stay alive while mezzed.
I think that your largest Positional Defense number should be used against Mez protection and not just Range Defense. Simply AOE and Melee defense should be considered Range Defense vs Mez type attacks which just happen to be mostly ranged attacks. This way a Melee Defense too has the same chances against mez attacks as a Range defense blaster does.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
I posted this before but this bears repeating here:
*Tank - Complete mez protection
*Brute - Complete mez protection
*Scrapper - complete mez protection
*Stalker - complete mez protection
*Veat - mez protection
*Kheld - Mez protection in Dwarf form and can switch forms to Dwarf while mezzed
*Master Mind - Multiple pets to absorb both the Alpha Mez and reoccurring Mezzes, 3 different secondaries that provide full mez protection vs hold, stun, and Immob for themselves and their team, and Buffs/debuffs that make it less likely to be be hit by mez
*Defender - Powerful Buff/Debuff primary that can effectively reduce the likely hood of being mezzed to 5% for themselves AND their team, 3 different primaries that provide full mez protection vs hold, stun, and Immob for themselves and their team
*Corruptor - Powerful Buff/Debuff secondary that, with the inclusion of a couple of pool powers, can effectively reduce the likely hood of being mezzed to 5% for themselves AND their team, 2 different secondaries that provide full mez protection vs hold, stun, and Immob for themselves and their team
*Controllers - Powerful AoE mezzes that can stop an entire spawn from attacking, Alpha Mez absorbing pets, Powerful Buff/Debuff secondary that, with the inclusion of a couple of pool powers, can effectively reduce the likely hood of being mezzed to 5% for themselves AND their team, 2 different secondaries that provide full mez protection vs hold, stun, and Immob for themselves and their team
*Dominators - Powerful AoE mezzes that can stop an entire spawn from attacking, Alpha Mez absorbing pets, full mez protection 65+% of the time with SO slotting only through the use of a single pool power and a cheap and universally easy to use SG base empowerment.
The blaster is the ONLY AT in the game that will get hit with 45% of all mezzes launched at them. ALL the other ATs in the game can limit being affected by mez to 5% or less.
All the other ATs in the game can use their full range of powers 95% of the time. In a late game heavy mez environment (which, with the exception of the ITF is every thing else) the blaster can potentially be locked into using only 3 powers for entire missions.
No blaster primary, secondary, or epic power set provides any kind of mitigation to any status effect: hold, stun, sleep, terror, confuse, knock back, immobilize, endurance drain, slow, -rech, defense debuff and -regen. A blaster's only recourse is to suck it up and repay the resulting debt or use a break free. Break Frees do not drop often enough nor do they have long enough a duration to be a reliable solution especially in the case of primary + secondary combinations that are single target focused.
No matter how much people try to down play that, it's still blatantly unbalanced at best and irreparably broken at worst.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
If you do an all things being equal comparison to the other damage ATs
Where is the blaster's benefit for giving up Mez protection and hit points ?
This after all is the meaning of AT balance, if an AT is giving things up relative to the other ATs it gets something back. If it doesn't get anything in return it is just inferior.
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I like how you don't mention anything about defiance in your post or anything about clarion or anything about team buffs or anything about ranged defense or anything about killing the mezzers first or anything about mezzing/kbing the mezzers first or anything about acrobatics. All of which can reduce the number of break frees you need to use for when you actually do /need/ to use one, so the number of break frees you need becomes a reasonable amount.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
post
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Blasters aren't as helpless as you make it sound.
Quote:
Defiance ??? |
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
I like how you don't mention anything about defiance in your post or anything about clarion or anything about team buffs or anything about ranged defense or anything about killing the mezzers first or anything about mezzing/kbing the mezzers first or anything about acrobatics. All of which can reduce the number of break frees you need to use for when you actually do /need/ to use one, so the number of break frees you need becomes a reasonable amount.
Blasters aren't as helpless as you make it sound. |
So what your saying is on a setting of 2/7 you can clearly defeat the mobs coming at you with Defiance alone with 2 attacks on average and 3 at the most ? I don't think so.
Personally I only have 2 attacks I can use on all my blasters. My builds just do not allow me to pick up all the low end attacks or slot them to there full potentials.
Clarion ???
Again your saying that every blaster has to pick up clarion ? I can't pick up the heal ? I'm Pigeon holed into Clarion ? I'm not even going to discuss that your talking about having to do incarnate missions and unlock this ability just to get it. What about the other 49 levels of the game ? Do F2P even get to do incarnate stuff ? I don't think so.
Come on, you can't pigeon hole a person into a particular build just to satisfy this Mez issue. If that were the fact then might as well have the Devs just pick my toons and powers for me. While they are at it they might as well slot the powers how they seem fit.
The point MD brought up is no other AT has to specifically build their toons to obtain this protection as it is already built in.
Even with my idea at least your would be afforded some protection because regardless how you build with IOs your going to obtain some defenses just based on the IO set bonuses.
I will agree on a team it might be a bit different, but again on a team everyone excels a bit more don't they ? So even a non defense capped scrapper normally would be super great on a team with a Force Field player capping him out.
But to say you have to pick these powers or build your toon this way to get that protection is wrong. Which is pretty much what your saying.
.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
Quote:
I was hoping someone would mention these things. I didn't mention them because, to take them in order:|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
I like how you don't mention anything about defiance in your post or anything about clarion or anything about team buffs or anything about ranged defense or anything about killing the mezzers first or anything about mezzing/kbing the mezzers first or anything about acrobatics. All of which can reduce the number of break frees you need to use for when you actually do /need/ to use one, so the number of break frees you need becomes a reasonable amount.
Blasters aren't as helpless as you make it sound. |
- No other AT HAS to take Clarion to be equivalent.
- Non-VIP blasters can't take Clarion.
- Team buffs improve everyone equally. If the blaster needs team buffs to be equivalent to the base state of all other ATs then something is wrong, whether you want to admit it or not.
- Team buffs don't exist when the blaster is solo. The reason most ATs got buffed (controllers got containment and increased damage, Dominators got revamped and their damage was taken out of Domination and put into their secondary, even Defenders got a damage increase in vigilance while solo and on small teams) is because they had difficulty soloing things that other ATs had little or no difficulty with.
- The highest amount of defense you can get with a blaster's power sets is 21.8% vs S/L, 16.4% vs Energy, and 5.5% to every thing else. Which leaves you with 12.3% toxic resistance as the only resistance underneath. That's for a ??/devices/Mace. If you choose any other secondary subtract 5.5% from each position/type. By the way that defense won't become available until you get your epic powers, it deflects virtually no mezzes that are flung your way as most of them are ranged or AoE, and it supresses as soon as you are mezzed. So there is no ranged defense in a blaster's power set.
- Not all blasters have access to IOs.
- It takes an average of 3 single target shots to kill a mezzing minion and 6 to kill a mezzing lieutenant. Since 45% of all mez will hit you. You are still going to get mezzed even on low difficulty settings.
- The mobs out range the blasters. I have been killed without even being able to fire a shot, even after the defiance revamp, by range using mezzers that wouldn't close, neither my tier 1 nor tier 2 primary would reach and my tier 1 secondary certainly didn't reach.
- KB is currently bugged and not ALL blaster power sets have access to it.
- Acrobatics is not part of any blaster power set that means that all ATs have access to it. This does not equalize the playing field.
- No other AT NEEDS breakfrees at anything like the rate that blasters require them. They ALL have solutions built into their power sets.
I never said blasters were helpless. They aren't even close to balanced though.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Looks at Khelds pauses...looks back at thread...shakes head and walks away....
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Quote:
Very dramatic. What's your point though? Khelds have mez protection that comes wrapped up in a nice big tanky thing that can be activated any time. Or at least mine do. |
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Looks at Khelds pauses...looks back at thread...shakes head and walks away....
|
I guess a human only build could have mez problems, but that's like saying that a SR scrapper has mez problems if they skip Practiced Brawler.
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Yeah, that was a bit cryptic hehe. PB's had no break-free with Dwarf for years that is a very recent change. Having said that I was thinking about how it use to be on Khelds prior to that time and it was not the best of COX experiences. |
Originally Posted by VTG_Peace
Very dramatic. What's your point though? Khelds have mez protection that comes wrapped up in a nice big tanky thing that can be activated any time. Or at least mine do.
I guess a human only build could have mez problems, but that's like saying that a SR scrapper has mez problems if they skip Practiced Brawler. |
I am usually very direct about these kinds of things so sorry. I was just kind of hinting they could find a way to allow Blasters to "break-free" so to speak as well. Someone up thread I think here had an idea about the tier 1 and 2 attacks building up a break-free from attacking while mezzed which I thought was pretty darn creative and would help blasters in this area.
Sorry for my original cryptic post and miserably failed attempt at humor.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Quote:
*shrug* I disagree, and I don't see how to meet in the middle.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
I never said blasters were helpless. They aren't even close to balanced though.
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Just your examples for trollers, corrs, def assume that all powersets in those ATs affect self when many of them are team mate only abilities. I rank many/most of those under Blasters. You clearly didn't.
Dominators can only break free if domination is up... I'd say that's on par with Blasters that can always partially ignore every mez.
I will not bother to go down the full list, but I'd guess Blasters are pretty middle of the pack.
(let alone the fact that the design changes and you hadn out wonderful mez breaking ability - then all the suport sets that have power choices for just that are now unbalanced.....)
Let alone how easy it is now to make a break free if you don't happen to have one.
I continue to believe Blasters are not unbalanced in this space.
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
Quote:
No worries. I see the funny now. I'm personally open to various ideas, and at this point and am glad to see blaster issues being discussed. I'd like to have a reason to pull my various mid-level blasters out of retirement.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Yeah, that was a bit cryptic hehe. PB's had no break-free with Dwarf for years that is a very recent change. Having said that I was thinking about how it use to be on Khelds prior to that time and it was not the best of COX experiences.
I am usually very direct about these kinds of things so sorry. I was just kind of hinting they could find a way to allow Blasters to "break-free" so to speak as well. Someone up thread I think here had an idea about the tier 1 and 2 attacks building up a break-free from attacking while mezzed which I thought was pretty darn creative and would help blasters in this area. Sorry for my original cryptic post and miserably failed attempt at humor. |
Quote:
Recently had a Stone/Stone Tanker held and killed fighting against +1s.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
I posted this before but this bears repeating here:
*Tank - Complete mez protection |
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------
The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Quote:
Was this before you were high enough in level to get rooted?
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
Recently had a Stone/Stone Tanker held and killed fighting against +1s.
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Be well, people of CoH.
For the same reasons Miladys_Knight discussed, blasters would be the beneficiaries of a buff to mez protection powers like Clear Mind. The devs seem to think making me cast Clear Mind 4 times instead of once in a team of five makes the game somehow better; I disagree. I don't see why Clear Mind and its clones are so much better than Speed Boost that they have to remain so limited. Make Clear Mind an AoE buff like Speed Boost, and the problem may be solved indirectly.
In addition, I'd like to see 10 seconds of mez protection added to all Aim and Build Up powers on all ATs. I first had this idea before ever playing (that other superhero MMO), and once I saw this idea in action there, I was just more convinced it's a good one. Why? Getting mezzed on any squishy is a bummer, but getting mezzed during my ten seconds to shine can be mouse-throwing, chair-kicking, wake-the-neighbors infuriating.
It is an old joke: What follows a blaster activating both Aim + Buildup?
Answer: 15 seconds of slow death to the blaster before he gets an attack off.
In general AT discussions we have had a few ideas passed around this forum seems more fitting.
As the game has aged the NPC's have had a power creep and what was once rare - mezzes - are now common. So how do we help blasters without creating a tankmage.
My suggestion cut from the other thread:
I think it is now down to only one solution some form of mez escape for a blaster.
They need to be able to attack their way out of being held. I will return to the ability to use the lower tier attacks to allow for a small window of freedom. Not a 30 second breakfree - but a 5-10 second window to either finish the fight add defense, health or run.
I like being able to use my lower tier attacks and in fact it has often let me win a fight I would have lost otherwise. So I would use what they have given to us now and add the subtle twist of us breaking out by fighting. In most cases you can get off 3 lower level attacks prior to defeat. The soul destroying fight is where you are chain mezzed.
This would not happen with this solution - you get held and keep pouring on damage with your low level attacks and boom you shake free for 5 seconds - enough to eat a purple or green and try and win or beat feet to escape.