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I'm not sure that I can get behind this. I'm sure it's numerically sound and I have no doubt that it could be tweaked to work BUT it would not be fun. Sure it may keep me alive, but while I'm mezzed I'm still playing a character that is level 2. That's not FUN.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
We already have a good mechanism for that for Blasters: Defiance 2.0. If the active mitigation mechanism is something put into most or all single target blaster attacks, its going to be in the two ranged primary attacks blasters are allowed to use when mezzed.
Currently, being mezzed means Blaster offense is degraded down to the point where you have basically two or three attacks with which to kill your attackers before they kill you, or at least last long enough for the mez to expire. With splashing counter-mitigation effects in those two powers, the equation changes to using your D2.0 attacks to simply continue to hit the most dangerous targets, and keep them from damaging you too much until mez expires. That's a significantly better option for two reasons: splashing effects mean you can affect more targets than the one or two you could normally engage with tier1/2 blasts, and offensive counter-mitigation would allow you to gain some benefit from your attacking besides maybe killing the target, which is a binary benefit: either it dies or it doesn't. I've actually been conducting a long-term experiment on my own blaster to see if this actually works. Since I19, I've been playing a build that takes both Bolt and Blast (not all energy blasters do) and builds for ultrahigh recharge. When I do get mezzed, even if I have a break free most times I will try to see if simply using those two powers, cycled as fast as possible, can keep me alive until the mez expires. And they can. Sometimes, and if I switch from trying to kill the most dangerous target, to cycling through everyone and trying to hit as many targets as possible whether I kill them or not. The problem is that even with the ability to cycle those two powers almost by themselves without gap, they are just single targeted and their knock has only a low probability of firing. And most blasters are not going to have +150% recharge to use them that often. But a mitigation effect that happened all the time or nearly so, that hit multiple targets with each shot, that could be fired while mezzed (as the tier 1/2 attacks can be), that I think would work for everybody. Mez would still be dangerous. You'd lose all your defensive toggles. And mez would still negatively affect blaster performance: you'd lose all your AoEs and most of your single target damage when mezzed. But you would have a way to stay alive long enough for the mez to expire. It would be less likely to kill you. Better yet: this is just as useful even if you are not mezzed. This is not a break out of mez power that if you're not mezzed has no benefit. You can use this *proactively* to try to *prevent* mez, by using it to go after the mezzers directly. About the only thing its likely to not be useful for directly is boss fights where everything else is dead and its just the boss left. Which is why I've suggested that it should do one more thing: when there's only one target left and there's nothing to splash, it should turn around and hit the intended target harder. Still working out how to do that, though. |
For a mez solution to work for me I have to get the amount of mezzes that affect me (turn off/suppress toggles, lock me out of my 21+ other powers, prevent me from moving, etc) down to 5% or less (actually 2.5% or less since half of all the mezzes launched all ready miss) without dipping into the inspiration tray. Just like I can achieve with EVERY OTHER AT I PLAY.
If one of the goals of a blaster modification is to keep them from being abandoned as they level then they have to be not just numerically or intrinsically equivalent to scrappers but the fun factor has to be there too. I didn't level my blaster to 50 only to use the first 3 powers the majority of the time. There is no thrill or WOW factor in that.
I know exactly how I'll feel after the next pass of blaster improvements if I'm still limited to 3 powers in the majority of high level content on my blasters while all the scrapper players on the team continue unimpeded in scrapper lock. I'll still feel cheated and quite frankly I still will be cheated.
I really don't see how you can get the % of mezzes down to an acceptable level with this idea without making the thing hideously overpowered while unmezzed.
I also can't see how this will significantly speed rewards gained, especially solo, if the blaster is still limited to an average DPS that is lower than a defender due to mez.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Arcana,
lol. The stuff I posted was the result of a half hour discussion I had with a close friend over Yahoo! instant messenger back when defiance 2.0 was being put on live. Really, it is only about 70% from me, the bit about the powers recharging faster as level increases was his idea.
of course I cant prove that as I dont document discussions i have at leisure about a stupid video game. As I wrote in the other thread, i do not care that much about "credit" of such things as there is no benefit to myself about it.
my response was much more about how my voice isnt loud enough to be heard then it was about the actual idea itself. more of a musement as i read through the more recent replies here.
I am trying to be involved inthese discussions not for fame and glory(in a stupid video game forum) but because I am strugling to remain interested in City of lately. i am melee'd out, and I have disliked the way ranged damage AT's play for a long time, despite my lengthy list of blasters and corruptors. doms and defenders too to a lesser extent. thats why i posted this afternoon daydream:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=278037
it is also why i have posted various ideas on alterations for blasters. Ranged sets have the potential to really be fun. they have flare, they have a wide array of target type, secondary effect, range and damage and most of the time all of those in one set. each ranged damage set plays differently(minus the standardization of tier one and two) and most can even be built differently to focus on one thing or another. Not that this is news to you of course, but as it pertains to me, if blast sets dont get some kind of alteration, new AT or mechanics or whatever, I am afraid for the first time in years I will consider letting my sub lapse.
there is this massive chunk of AT/powersets and whatnot there, all those different ranged damage powersets, but the current AT and AT mechanics they are useable in have flaws or required playstyle limitations etc I find distasteful enough to keep me from enjoying those sets like i could. My giant roster of ranged damage dealers only get intermittent play. if I could enjoy the AT/mechanics it would be the total opposite with my melee characters sitting around more instead.
Anyway, your voice is certainly louder then mine, as proven right in this thread hahaha. Thats the reason for the mildly sarcastic post, not some argument for intelectual rights to a stupid video game, so no need to bust out dates and get defensive.
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Blasters stopped being the single target damage kings awhile ago, and their AoE damage superiority is regularly tread upon by ATs that are better at everything else. Even without going into the ridiculousness that are the VEATs, even the melee ATs are able to put out sufficient AoE damage from time to time (Elec/Shield/whatever, anybody?).
Back when Beam Rifle was in beta, I spent most of my time looking at it from a Blaster POV, and I spent a long time trying to explain that it was uniquely problematic for Blasters because it just so happened to exaggerate Blaster problems - the chief most Blaster problem being the inability to deal with mass aggro (the secondmost one being terrible powerset design: if a Scrapper got a primary that only had three ST attacks at 4s, 8s, and 12s recharge, one or two moderately long recharging AoE powers, and a bunch of situational powers, everybody would agree it sucks, but that's the par for Blasters). This is often why mezzing is a huge problem for blasters, since even with your Defiance powers, being mezzed takes away your AoE tools and detoggles/suppresses your defensive powers.
I really don't see why Blaster mods have to be so abysmal. Most of our ST mez powers aren't even perma with 100% duration slotting, let alone stackable enough to keep bosses down. Our debuffs and self-buffs are terrible (barring Build Up, but I personally feel that everybody should get the same strength build up, since you already have you damage modifier backed into your powers, so you get double penalized).
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This dichotomy confuses me. On the one hand, you say that every other AT is able to handle mezzes, but then you say that giving blasters the debuff/mez effects to handle mezzes would make them overpowered. Is blaster damage really that high compared to the others? The kind of things that ArcanaVille is listing are a drop in the bucket compared to the tools that Controllers, Dominators, Defenders, and Corruptors have at their disposal.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Just like I can achieve with EVERY OTHER AT I PLAY.
... I really don't see how you can get the % of mezzes down to an acceptable level with this idea without making the thing hideously overpowered while unmezzed. |
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Quote:
Not surprised since you clipped the middle out and the chain that lead there.|
Originally Posted by Diellan_
This dichotomy confuses me. On the one hand, you say that every other AT is able to handle mezzes, but then you say that giving blasters the debuff/mez effects to handle mezzes would make them overpowered. Is blaster damage really that high compared to the others? The kind of things that ArcanaVille is listing are a drop in the bucket compared to the tools that Controllers, Dominators, Defenders, and Corruptors have at their disposal.
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I'm not a math whiz like Arcanaville is. I can't see the math in it but even I can see that if this mechanic gets the number of mezzes that affect my blasters down to the same level as those that affect all my other toons that the blaster will then be a better debuffer than a defender could hope to be and a better controller than a controller could aspire to be.
With that in mind I can see one of 2 possibilities:
1) We don't get it because it treads not only on controller, defender, and corruptor toes but on their arches as well.
2) We get a watered down version that still leaves the blaster too vulnerable to the combined lack of mez protection and meaningful mitigation and the next pass is another 2+ years out and we continue to suffer through the same issues we suffer through now and have since I2.
I am not in favor of complicated solutions. The blaster learning curve is all ready too steep for the average player. Making the fix as complicated could easily make the new player just throw their hands up in frustration and continue to abandon their blasters just as they do now.
The blaster AT should be as intuitive to play out of the box as all the other basic ATs are. For those of us that are good at playing blasters we should be able to find efficiencies that still allow us to stand out (even by a large margin) when compared to the average player.
To give a metaphor - adding a complicated solution to a complicated problem is like hiding a key to your house somewhere outside that is so counter intuitive to your thought processes that if you lock your key inside the house you'll only be able to remember where you hid the outside key 5% of the time. Then worrying that it might be too easy for someone else to find by accident and locking the key inside a box with a combination lock that you won't be able to remember the combination to before putting it in the hiding spot that you won't be able to find in the first place.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Only clipped in the quote box because I don't like massive quote repeats. The "..." is meant to imply all the stuff in between. I can assure you, I read the whole thing.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Not surprised since you clipped the middle out and the chain that lead there.
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| I'm not a math whiz like Arcanaville is. I can't see the math in it but even I can see that if this mechanic gets the number of mezzes that affect my blasters down to the same level as those that affect all my other toons that the blaster will then be a better debuffer than a defender could hope to be and a better controller than a controller could aspire to be. |
There's a long way to go from "useless debuff" to "Defender level", and the onus on your part is to demonstrate that anything less than Defender level would not be sufficient.
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With that in mind I can see one of 2 possibilities: 1) We don't get it because it treads not only on controller, defender, and corruptor toes but on their arches as well. 2) We get a watered down version that still leaves the blaster too vulnerable to the combined lack of mez protection and meaningful mitigation and the next pass is another 2+ years out and we continue to suffer through the same issues we suffer through now and have since I2. |
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I am not in favor of complicated solutions. The blaster learning curve is all ready too steep for the average player. Making the fix as complicated could easily make the new player just throw their hands up in frustration and continue to abandon their blasters just as they do now. The blaster AT should be as intuitive to play out of the box as all the other basic ATs are. For those of us that are good at playing blasters we should be able to find efficiencies that still allow us to stand out (even by a large margin) when compared to the average player. To give a metaphor - adding a complicated solution to a complicated problem is like hiding a key to your house somewhere outside that is so counter intuitive to your thought processes that if you lock your key inside the house you'll only be able to remember where you hid the outside key 5% of the time. Then worrying that it might be too easy for someone else to find by accident and locking the key inside a box with a combination lock that you won't be able to remember the combination to before putting it in the hiding spot that you won't be able to find in the first place. |
For the record, I'm not married to ArcanaVille's idea in the least. The Huntsman VEAT method of "moderately good personal defense and low level passive mez protection" works pretty darn good, too. At the least, we need for the design of Blaster powersets to no longer have a "but it has to suck" rule for anything that isn't damage.
Global @Diellan - 5M2M
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Redside: Lorenzo Mondavi
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Quote:
All ready been done in post #12 of this thread|
Originally Posted by Diellan_
There's a long way to go from "useless debuff" to "Defender level", and the onus on your part is to demonstrate that anything less than Defender level would not be sufficient.
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| Again, false dichotomy. There's no in between? |
Blasters need to be correctly modified this time so that they don't have to suck for 2 more years.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Back in 2005 I made a frustrated comment in a team (friends, we teamed daily for a few months straight, my most teamiest time ever) that got quoted on the forum by one of my teammates (who hasn't played in ages).|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Judging by the devs track record there is no in between. In fact what it looks like to me from observing for 7 years is that each department is tasked with solving each problem and then they implement ALL the solutions some of which are contradictory. A perfect example this time is enhancement converters. The new power sets make more use of set IOs that do not see much use which will raise price and market value. At the same time they add converters which will suck up all those sets and convert them into things that are used more often. 2 contradictory solutions that pull things too far in one direction. All they really needed to do was adjust the drop rates to more closely match the use rates. Something we know that they could have done simply by changing values in one of the spread sheets. Instead they had 2 departments working on the same issue. That seems like a waste of time to me.
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Anyway, what I said then has been quoted in a few places as "Kali's Law" and "Kali's Corollary." Anyway:
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Kali's Law: If the Devs have 3 solutions, any one of which could fix the problem, the Devs will institute all 3. Kali's Corollary: When the Devs institute a change that actually fixes a problem, they will not roll back previous changes that are now unnecessary. |
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
Suggested this in the general forum's blaster thread, but nobody seemed to notice:
What if dropping a foe while mezzed granted an auto break-free?
Ok, my further journey on a ranged only blaster.
I am now at 22 nearly 23 and did both Positron 1&2 and while Positron 2 was very smooth and no defeats - Positron 1 was ugly.
I was defeated 4 times - 2 were straight up lag deaths where I got mapservered and came back dead - so really don't count. 2 were team wipes where because I was prepared with 5 purples I died last! In fact I thought for a minute I would win but then a hold stuck in both occurrences and I died.
I exited those TF's at 22 and now started back on the road solo with Tips. Council I was able to roll fairly easy I found in fact the Knockback I deliver on an Energy/Ice is very much what keeps me alive. I am still running at 0x3 + bosses and the hardest ones to fight are Aracnos by far. So many holds, stuns and immobilizes.
Ice patch and Chilling embrace really help and once I get Shiver I expect to notice a real difference. So far 8 deaths in 22 levels and all of them since level 13. Two were network related deaths that I could not have avoided.
Most deaths I got were from being immobilizes in Line Of Sight (LoS) and ganked when I could not get them on the Ice patch.
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Um, what you did was list what everybody had in terms of mez mitigation. You didn't say anything about (a) what was necessary in order to provide the mez mitigation we feel is sufficient, and (b) where that point lies in comparison to Defenders.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
All ready been done in post #12 of this thread
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Global @Diellan - 5M2M
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I really REALLY like the idea of adjusting the tier 1 and 2 powers when mezzed. I am kind of curious as to why I haven't read a suggestion to have a damage boost while mezzed. Something on the order of bumping the damage of the tier 1 and 2 to the tier 2 and 3 and maybe a recharge buff as well. Think about it as the blaster's rage at being helpless and frustration being channeled into the tier 1 and 2 attacks.
I think I would prefer to keep the AoE soft control idea to one specific type. I'd think either knockback or terrorize would fit thematically as well as keep it from being over powered. Knockback is a detriment on teams mostly, especially since you can't move to position mob movement, so it would hardly be considered over powered and can be explained as the added oomph due to the frustration and rage of the mezzed blaster. A terrorized mob can still fight back occassionally and can be explained as panic that this blaster who is supposedly controlled is now frothing at the mouth and dealing just as much damage in a frantic manner.
I wouldn't make it a 100% proc, however, more like 50% to 60%. If there is a recharge buff when mezzed you'll get proc's enough to survive while still being able to take down mobs but you're not going shut down all damage.
That's what I would like, a 50% to 60% soft control AoE proc with a damage and recharge buff so you aren't completely gimped. Mez would still mean something but it would be much easier to work through. At the very least it wouldn't be such a deadly impediment.
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Read the whole thread. It's in there.
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Originally Posted by Diellan_
Um, what you did was list what everybody had in terms of mez mitigation. You didn't say anything about (a) what was necessary in order to provide the mez mitigation we feel is sufficient, and (b) where that point lies in comparison to Defenders.
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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Quote:
I did before, and I just did again (and the curt non-answers aren't particularly helpful towards having a discussion). You talk primarily about a handful of data points (Blaster without pools, Blaster with pools, Blaster with mag 4 mez protection, other ATs), and give a lot of analogies for why you feel as you do about the suggestions given, but I do not see what I'm asking for. I mean, if, for example, every Blaster was suddenly granted Darkest Night as a bonus (and nothing else in addition), would that (a) prevent a sufficient amount of mez, without (b) stepping on Defenders' toes? (b) is highly unlikely, since nobody has accused Soul Mastery Brutes from taking over from Defenders, even though they get the debuff in addition to their own survivability - because Defenders have a lot more to them than just what that one power can provide. As for (a), well, that depends upon the discussion of just how much mez is acceptable - given that we've stated that Defenders and such are doing "fine" in terms of mez, even though they still get mezzed, that amount is something above zero.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Read the whole thread. It's in there.
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Global @Diellan - 5M2M
Mids' Hero/Villain Designer Lead
Virtue Server
Redside: Lorenzo Mondavi
Blueside: Alex Rabinovich
Got a Mids suggestion? Want to report a Mids bug?
Quote:
I wasn't being curt. I have all ready given the answers to your questions. I doubt restating them will give you more clarity but:|
Originally Posted by Diellan_
I did before, and I just did again (and the curt non-answers aren't particularly helpful towards having a discussion). You talk primarily about a handful of data points (Blaster without pools, Blaster with pools, Blaster with mag 4 mez protection, other ATs), and give a lot of analogies for why you feel as you do about the suggestions given, but I do not see what I'm asking for. I mean, if, for example, every Blaster was suddenly granted Darkest Night as a bonus (and nothing else in addition), would that (a) prevent a sufficient amount of mez, without (b) stepping on Defenders' toes? (b) is highly unlikely, since nobody has accused Soul Mastery Brutes from taking over from Defenders, even though they get the debuff in addition to their own survivability - because Defenders have a lot more to them than just what that one power can provide. As for (a), well, that depends upon the discussion of just how much mez is acceptable - given that we've stated that Defenders and such are doing "fine" in terms of mez, even though they still get mezzed, that amount is something above zero.
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I thought of a possible measuring stick that we can use as comparison. A way to self data mine as it were. All the characters are mine so there is no variance in skill.
Here is a sample of my level 50s listed in order of creation (I know there is a way to find out how many hours a charcter has logged. I don't remember how though. If someone can remind me I'll resort the list in order of hours logged):
Character -- Debt Badge -- Mez Badge
Defender Emp/Dark/Dark -- Level 6 (Max) -- 61.46% of level 3
Defender FF/Psi/Psi -- Level6 (Max) -- 67.89 of level 2
Scrapper Dark/Regen -- Level 6 (Max) -- 72.11 % of level 2
Controller Earth/Storm/Fire -- Level 6 (Max) -- 73.83% of level 2
Blaster Energy/Energy/Force -- Level 6 (Max) -- 73.66% of level 5
Controller Earth/TA/Primal -- Level 6 (max) -- 96.36% of level 2
Blaster Arch/Dev/Munitions -- Level 6 (Max) -- 80.40% of level 4
Tank Fire/Fire/Pyre -- Level 6 (Max) -- 47.11% of Level 1
Scrapper BS/Shield/Body -- Level 6 (Max) -- 91.67% of level 1
Controller Plant/TA/Fire -- Level 6 (Max) -- 96.96% of level 2
Blaster Sonic/Ice/Elec -- Level 6 (Max) -- 67.42% of level 4
Blaster Energy/Elec/Fire -- Level 6 (Max) -- 40.91% of level 4
Controller Ice/Rad/Ice -- Level 6 (Max) -- 68.56% of level 2
Dominator Mind/Ice/Fire -- Level 6 (Max) -- 97.47% of level 1
Blaster Rad/Fire/Mace -- Level 6 (Max) -- 33.63% of level 4
Now that I look at it I realize just how shocking the differences are and I wonder just how many of those mezzes were cut short because they resulted in my defeat. The results here might show that I was less affected by mez than I actually was. I was clearly hit by far more mezzes on my blasters but if they were cut short by my defeat then the problem is even worse than these numbers show.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
I still think my idea of helping Blasters ESCAPE mez rather than ignore it has merit 
:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...4&postcount=34
What about adding to Defiance a +MezResist value so as you are mezzed however many stacked Defiance's you have reduces the duration by [num_defiance x MexResist].
As you are mezzed you still attack using the 3 available powers and any Defiance those attacks generate is added with their +MezResist.
The following is based on what I read from here:
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Resistance_(Mechanics)
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So for example:|
Resistance to status effects follows a different formula: SufferedDuration = AppliedDuration / (100% + TotalResistance) So 75% resistance to Sleep duration, for example, would not cause all Sleeps to affect the character for only 1/4 of their normal durations. Their durations would be divided by 1.75, which is roughly only a 43% reduction. More importantly, the formula means that achieving 100% or more resistance to effect durations does not cause them to end instantly. 100% resistance actually only cuts their durations in half, 200% cuts it to a third, 300% would cut it to a fourth, and so on. |
Defiance adds say +75% MezResist per stack.
If you have 4 Defiance you have (4x75) 300% MezResist.
Based on the above this would reduce the MezDuration to a quarter (so a 10s Mez lasts 2.5s).
If during that Mez you get 2 more Defiance's stacked (before any of the current Defiance expires) you would have 450% MezResist which would make that 10s Mez last only 1.8s.
~~This is obviously not counting the time it takes for you to fire those 2 attacks and the MezDuration already ticking over
Let say the Mez lasts 30s by default.
4xDefiance (300%) = 7.5s
Time taken to fire those 2 attacks = (say) 3 secs.
Remaining MezDuration = 4.5s.
Addition Defiance from 2 attacks (2x75 = 150%) = 450%
New Remaining MezDuration = 0.81s
This way you still get mezzed but by doing what Blasters are MEANT to do (attack and damage) not only do you do more damage (standard Defiance) but you also spend less time Mezzed without getting MezProtection (which is prob too much).
Maybe +75% MezResist is too much? Im sure this could be balanced better or even have the value based on the amount of +Dam Defiance grants:
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Defiance
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Damage Bonus = 6.6% * Activation Time / Area Modifier where Area Modifier = 1 + (0.15 * radius) - ( 0.0003667 * radius * (360 - arc) ) |
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I don't know. My numbers look so bad comparatively that I think we need to scrap the current defiance and start completely over. 4 of the blasters were created after D2.0 if they are better at all it has to be just marginally. I think anything that is based on the current set up will fail miserably.
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Originally Posted by cybermitheral
I still think my idea of helping Blasters ESCAPE mez rather than ignore it has merit
:http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...4&postcount=34 What about adding to Defiance a +MezResist value so as you are mezzed however many stacked Defiance's you have reduces the duration by [num_defiance x MexResist]. As you are mezzed you still attack using the 3 available powers and any Defiance those attacks generate is added with their +MezResist. The following is based on what I read from here: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Resistance_(Mechanics) So for example: Defiance adds say +75% MezResist per stack. If you have 4 Defiance you have (4x75) 300% MezResist. Based on the above this would reduce the MezDuration to a quarter (so a 10s Mez lasts 2.5s). If during that Mez you get 2 more Defiance's stacked (before any of the current Defiance expires) you would have 450% MezResist which would make that 10s Mez last only 1.8s. ~~This is obviously not counting the time it takes for you to fire those 2 attacks and the MezDuration already ticking over Let say the Mez lasts 30s by default. 4xDefiance (300%) = 7.5s Time taken to fire those 2 attacks = (say) 3 secs. Remaining MezDuration = 4.5s. Addition Defiance from 2 attacks (2x75 = 150%) = 450% New Remaining MezDuration = 0.81s This way you still get mezzed but by doing what Blasters are MEANT to do (attack and damage) not only do you do more damage (standard Defiance) but you also spend less time Mezzed without getting MezProtection (which is prob too much). Maybe +75% MezResist is too much? Im sure this could be balanced better or even have the value based on the amount of +Dam Defiance grants: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Defiance |
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
I am having some second thoughts on blasters and Mez.
I have my Energy/Ice blaster to 25 now thanks to a Synapse TF and I had one defeat and that was intentional. I pulled what I call a veteran nuke in one of the large open warehouses - popped 2 purples herded a huge group and self-destructed and Returned to battle.
What has me rethinking a solution is that other than mezzes I fear nothing as a blaster. Yes, if I set the game too hard I can get defeated but I can also slaughter things very efficiently. In the Synapse I felt sorry for 2 titan weapons brutes as I was wiping out the groups before they could even swing and in some cases I slowed attacking so they could get some kills.
If I had mez protection - as long as I played a secondary with some mitigation - I would never die solo and it would be hard to kill me in a team. I don't want to make blasters CoH easy mode. I like the fact I can use skill and timing to win. I let the aggro magnets get hit and then I light up the bad guys. Counting to 3 or 4 then loosing the gates of hell is fun and I have found if you take the thought that you want to take the LAST 2/3rds of the enemies health to heart you rarely are in danger and you get almost all of the kills.
Solo is where I would like to see a slight change. I would like some form of escape mechanism using defiance. Similar to how defenders get Corr damage solo - I would see us be able to escape and fight. But I think in a team setting - we are not that disadvantaged when viewing the battle in 2 parts opening volley and finishing volley. Let the controller and melee start the fight - you finish it.
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Thank you for humoring me, but you're right, it still doesn't answer my question of "how do we know for certain that it isn't possible to give Blasters enough soft control" - especially since I'm asking about what you think re:stepping on toes, not what the Devs think... I think we can agree that the reasoning for the Total Focus nerf was a silly one, and I often feel like it was just Blasters getting caught in the "we need to nerf Energy Melee" mess. Furthermore, I think that there is still room to discuss the issue of mag 4 controls with the devs and convince them that, no, it doesn't step on Controller toes - the fact that Seismic Smash still exists as it does is evidence of that.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
I wasn't being curt. I have all ready given the answers to your questions. I doubt restating them will give you more clarity but:
The total Focus nerf that was being discussed is that a mag 4 control was taken away from blasters BECAUSE IT STEPPED ON CONTROLLER TOES. Yet the Mag 4 Hold in Seismic Smash remained for Brutes and Tanks. We know for certain that the devs don't care if tanks, brutes, scrappers step on defender/controller toes only blasters. We also know that it doesn't matter if any other AT steps on blaster toes so that blasters have no unique tools. |
One of the big things we need to do is convince the Devs that their perception of what steps on the toes of defenders and controllers is a mess when it comes to Blasters.
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I thought of a possible measuring stick that we can use as comparison. A way to self data mine as it were. All the characters are mine so there is no variance in skill. Here is a sample of my level 50s listed in order of creation (I know there is a way to find out how many hours a charcter has logged. I don't remember how though. If someone can remind me I'll resort the list in order of hours logged): Character -- Debt Badge -- Mez Badge Defender Emp/Dark/Dark -- Level 6 (Max) -- 61.46% of level 3 Defender FF/Psi/Psi -- Level6 (Max) -- 67.89 of level 2 Scrapper Dark/Regen -- Level 6 (Max) -- 72.11 % of level 2 Controller Earth/Storm/Fire -- Level 6 (Max) -- 73.83% of level 2 Blaster Energy/Energy/Force -- Level 6 (Max) -- 73.66% of level 5 Controller Earth/TA/Primal -- Level 6 (max) -- 96.36% of level 2 Blaster Arch/Dev/Munitions -- Level 6 (Max) -- 80.40% of level 4 Tank Fire/Fire/Pyre -- Level 6 (Max) -- 47.11% of Level 1 Scrapper BS/Shield/Body -- Level 6 (Max) -- 91.67% of level 1 Controller Plant/TA/Fire -- Level 6 (Max) -- 96.96% of level 2 Blaster Sonic/Ice/Elec -- Level 6 (Max) -- 67.42% of level 4 Blaster Energy/Elec/Fire -- Level 6 (Max) -- 40.91% of level 4 Controller Ice/Rad/Ice -- Level 6 (Max) -- 68.56% of level 2 Dominator Mind/Ice/Fire -- Level 6 (Max) -- 97.47% of level 1 Blaster Rad/Fire/Mace -- Level 6 (Max) -- 33.63% of level 4 Now that I look at it I realize just how shocking the differences are and I wonder just how many of those mezzes were cut short because they resulted in my defeat. The results here might show that I was less affected by mez than I actually was. I was clearly hit by far more mezzes on my blasters but if they were cut short by my defeat then the problem is even worse than these numbers show. |
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1. The effect I'm describing would work mezzed or not mezzed. So if you want to reduce the amount of mez that affects you shoot the mezzers. Preferably first. This is in fact superior to a mez-breaking solution because mez-breakers presume you get mezzed in the first place before they have any benefit. Counter-mez (and counter-debuff) can theoretically be used to prevent mez, and it adds an element of skill to that effectiveness.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
I'm not sure that I can get behind this. I'm sure it's numerically sound and I have no doubt that it could be tweaked to work BUT it would not be fun. Sure it may keep me alive, but while I'm mezzed I'm still playing a character that is level 2. That's not FUN.
For a mez solution to work for me I have to get the amount of mezzes that affect me (turn off/suppress toggles, lock me out of my 21+ other powers, prevent me from moving, etc) down to 5% or less (actually 2.5% or less since half of all the mezzes launched all ready miss) without dipping into the inspiration tray. Just like I can achieve with EVERY OTHER AT I PLAY. ... I really don't see how you can get the % of mezzes down to an acceptable level with this idea without making the thing hideously overpowered while unmezzed. ... I also can't see how this will significantly speed rewards gained, especially solo, if the blaster is still limited to an average DPS that is lower than a defender due to mez. |
2. The key to balancing this is duration. Controller and Defender debuffs and control have long durations: it lets them hit targets with control or debuffs, and then go do something else for a while, or in combination with the fact that they also have AoEs with these effects, hit many different targets with those effects. Short duration effects essentially only affect the target with you're actually shooting at the target. Stop shooting at that target and they would then be quickly free to act. How *many* critical threats you could neutralize with this effect would then come down to skill, and build. Which is exactly what you want it to come down to anyway.
3. If it reduces the time spent mezzed, specifically by giving better options to prevent mez offensively and breaking chain mez when the situations encourages it, it'll improve performance. But as to this point specifically, the current version of the idea also includes a small damage increase in the form of boosting single target damage when splash targets don't exist. Separate from that, I would want to improve sniper attacks and better normalize tier 3 single target blasts, both of which would nominally improve offense and therefore overall performance.
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The idea would be actual control or soft control, rather than mez resistance, correct? I'm seeing that bandied around in this thread, but from what I remember in similar Kheldian threads, your resistance, even if it's 100%, only would let you resist have of the mez power's duration. So mez resistance isn't a good thing to go for. Hopefully I'm remembering that right. I do like the idea of some kind of proactive mitigation, as it fits well with the AT and could mesh okay with what Defiance can already do.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
1. The effect I'm describing would work mezzed or not mezzed. So if you want to reduce the amount of mez that affects you shoot the mezzers. Preferably first. This is in fact superior to a mez-breaking solution because mez-breakers presume you get mezzed in the first place before they have any benefit. Counter-mez (and counter-debuff) can theoretically be used to prevent mez, and it adds an element of skill to that effectiveness.
2. The key to balancing this is duration. Controller and Defender debuffs and control have long durations: it lets them hit targets with control or debuffs, and then go do something else for a while, or in combination with the fact that they also have AoEs with these effects, hit many different targets with those effects. Short duration effects essentially only affect the target with you're actually shooting at the target. Stop shooting at that target and they would then be quickly free to act. How *many* critical threats you could neutralize with this effect would then come down to skill, and build. Which is exactly what you want it to come down to anyway. 3. If it reduces the time spent mezzed, specifically by giving better options to prevent mez offensively and breaking chain mez when the situations encourages it, it'll improve performance. But as to this point specifically, the current version of the idea also includes a small damage increase in the form of boosting single target damage when splash targets don't exist. Separate from that, I would want to improve sniper attacks and better normalize tier 3 single target blasts, both of which would nominally improve offense and therefore overall performance. |
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Shouldn't we also be concerned about normalizing the tier 1 secondary in that case? Their range, recharge, and cast times are all over the map. Also some have a projectile that has a fixed speed while others do not.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
3. If it reduces the time spent mezzed, specifically by giving better options to prevent mez offensively and breaking chain mez when the situations encourages it, it'll improve performance. But as to this point specifically, the current version of the idea also includes a small damage increase in the form of boosting single target damage when splash targets don't exist. Separate from that, I would want to improve sniper attacks and better normalize tier 3 single target blasts, both of which would nominally improve offense and therefore overall performance.
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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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There's lots of things I would like to do, but the shorter the list is and the less time it takes, the more likely it can happen. In the grand scheme of things, I think, say, improving and partially normalizing the tier 3 single target attacks would have a greater impact on blasters than adjusting the tier 1 secondary power, although that's still open for debate.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Shouldn't we also be concerned about normalizing the tier 1 secondary in that case? Their range, recharge, and cast times are all over the map. Also some have a projectile that has a fixed speed while others do not.
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One of the reasons I'm more focused on those powers is because they beg the question "what's the point of a 40' range attack?" Archery doesn't really have one, and neither does Dark Blast or Ice Blast. The interesting question is what are those attacks getting back for giving up half the normal range of blaster single target attacks? In the case of Blaze, the answer is obvious: its getting very high DPA. Although the attack follows the same formula as every other single target attack, completely separate from its DoT it casts very fast, and thus has exceptionally high DPA. That means if you're willing to attack from within its range, your single target offense will likely be much higher.
But that's not generally true. The question is: should it be true? And if its not, should those powers really give up all that range? Power Burst, for example, seems to have basically given up its range for nothing. Cosmic burst at least gets a guaranteed mag 3 stun, but is that enough considering that its the only soft control Radiation Blast gets outside of the low percentage knock in Haze? Did Cosmic Burst really get a mag 3 stun in exchange for its low range, or was the set due that much stun anyway and it was just put into Cosmic burst so the power wouldn't seem as bad?
That situation is something I would like to think through carefully.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
But that's not generally true. The question is: should it be true? And if its not, should those powers really give up all that range? Power Burst, for example, seems to have basically given up its range for nothing. Cosmic burst at least gets a guaranteed mag 3 stun, but is that enough considering that its the only soft control Radiation Blast gets outside of the low percentage knock in Haze? Did Cosmic Burst really get a mag 3 stun in exchange for its low range, or was the set due that much stun anyway and it was just put into Cosmic burst so the power wouldn't seem as bad?
That situation is something I would like to think through carefully. |
That raises another issue with blaster powerset combinations. Mismatched control options. There is very little reason with the possible exception of fire (Trades everything for damage) that you shouldn't be able to match the controls between primary and secondary. The combinations where you can stack the control type, be it kb, stun or hold really do considerably better than the combinations that don't.
In the case of holds you can usually fix it by taking an epic pool but there isn't anything for stuns or fear.
The secondary sets are occasionally described as utility but it seems even that is pre nerfed
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I don't think this is as big of a problem because of the generally melee-restricted nature of the secondary attacks. If you're at range, you can't stack those effects with ranged attacks, and if you're in melee you're still fine if you can stack the effects with melee attacks, and in melee the melee attacks should generally be the better option anyway (if they are not, then that makes the melee attacks pointless because they are never the best option).|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
That raises another issue with blaster powerset combinations. Mismatched control options. There is very little reason with the possible exception of fire (Trades everything for damage) that you shouldn't be able to match the controls between primary and secondary. The combinations where you can stack the control type, be it kb, stun or hold really do considerably better than the combinations that don't.
In the case of holds you can usually fix it by taking an epic pool but there isn't anything for stuns or fear. |
There is one specific problematic area that I do think has some issues worth looking at, and that's endurance drain. The devs see drain as all or nothing and so make the best draining powers have short range or point blank range, and most of the players see drain as all or nothing and assume that anything short of leveraging everything is not worth pursuing. So endurance drain stacking is significant because even in the primary a lot of it is in a PBAoE.
However, I think either way some of that would be collaterally addressed by adding splash counter-mez into ranged attacks. If there are synergy deficiencies in certain effects, those would be the strongest candidates to add to splash counter-mez. Even if the splash is short duration, stacking it onto a longer duration mez that already exists in the blaster sets would mean that the longer duration mez would in effect elevate the splash mez to being able to affect higher ranks.
I do want to avoid making synergy so strong that anything besides the synergistic combination seems worthless by comparison. If stacking synergy has a benefit, there should be some alternate benefit to having a variety of mez effects instead.
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While it may seem invigorating to argue from a black and white perspective like this, you're ignoring a lot of the actual facts involved in gameplay to reach your "it's your own fault" conclusion.
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