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I do feel that sets are designed to do certain things well or better than other sets. They're also designed not to cope and do what other sets can do at times, between the two there is best way to go about things. The arbiter of play is still yourself, if its fun to go about things against design intent then by all means go ahead.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
You're suggesting that the "blame" for being mezzed more often, and as a consequence defeated more often, rests in part with the players because they did not play correctly. But whether the players play correctly to your standard or not is irrelevant: you aren't the arbiter of proper play. The devs don't have an arbiter of proper play. They know what *average* play does in the game, and that is the measuring stick by which they balance all the archetypes.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I care, because the number isn't arbitrary. The lower the number, the lower the advantage *especially* relative to the ability for critters to counter attack. If you say 80 feet, the problem is few blasters can really be offensively effective at that range. If you say 40 feet instead, the problem is that the advantage of being at range at all at that distance is severely curtailed for most blasters. And there is no goldilocks range that eliminates both problems.
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Last paragraph ya might want to edit out in ya post. If ya hadn't done so by the time ya read this.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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The reason it's disingenuous (and please, don't just start being condescending here, ad hominems are not useful to discussion) is that a petless MM requires you to specifically avoid taking the powers that are the keystones to your entire AT, the thing that they are balanced around. The closest analogy to that example is a Stalker not taking Assassin Strike, and that's basically it, because MMs face decreased buff/debuff strength and increased endurance costs (something no other AT faces outside of epics) in their secondary, due to their pets. It requires you to not take powers that the Devs base the entire AT around (and you wind up skipping anywhere from 5-6 powers from your primary, as a result). Choosing to take, slot, and regularly use your melee range powers on a Blaster is about using the 5-6 melee range powers the Devs put into your Secondary.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
You think that was disingenuous? Blappers had the choice. Petless MMs had the choice. Yeah I think you are just trying out a new word. Pompous is a rarely used word that just came to me.
My blaster didn't use hover, that would be disingenuous. |
It's a player choice, sure, but so is whether or not you went Soul Mastery or Mu Mastery on your Brute: if you have a hard time because you went petless on an MM, people won't care; if you have a hard time because you chose Soul Mastery instead of Mu Mastery, people have a right to complain to the Devs about it (not that they seem to care too much about Epic Pool balance).
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I'll go ahead and put my thoughts in on the issue of Blasters and mezzes, though it may very well be ignored.
I think it's a little silly to argue that Blasters need to do damage all the time, and therefore need to have mez protection/reduction. You don't see Defenders saying "I need to support all the time, so I need mez protection" (of the 13 support primaries, 3- Traps, FF, and Sonic- have mez protection, and Dark may get a nod for being able to floor ToHit before the enemies know you're there). A similar argument goes for Controllers (their mez protection comes from only one choice in APPs, and from similar arguments in this thread and others, we shouldn't be pigeonholed into specific sets), Corrupters, MMs, PBs, and WSs. In total, 6 out of 14 ATs. Since we need to cater to SO/generic IO-only builds, as also stated in this thread and others, we can also put half of Dominators on the list.
If we remove mez for Blasters because they need to do damage, we may as well remove mez for Controllers because they need to control, and so on, so we may as well just remove the ability for players to get mezzed.
Maybe yet another Blasting guide is in order, complete w/ "Avoiding Mez" as a topic...
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The question you should be asking is why do Blasters need a guide on how to function, when no other archetype has required such a guide in the past, and lacking such a guide every other archetype did not find themselves managing to be mezzed more often than other archetypes, mezzed longer than other archetypes, definitely dying more often than any other archetype due to mez - and just in general - and ending up dead last in terms of their ability earn rewards in the game. Rewards like XP for example, which directly translates into leveling speed.|
Originally Posted by Zeh_Masteh
I'll go ahead and put my thoughts in on the issue of Blasters and mezzes, though it may very well be ignored.
I think it's a little silly to argue that Blasters need to do damage all the time, and therefore need to have mez protection/reduction. You don't see Defenders saying "I need to support all the time, so I need mez protection" (of the 13 support primaries, 3- Traps, FF, and Sonic- have mez protection, and Dark may get a nod for being able to floor ToHit before the enemies know you're there). A similar argument goes for Controllers (their mez protection comes from only one choice in APPs, and from similar arguments in this thread and others, we shouldn't be pigeonholed into specific sets), Corrupters, MMs, PBs, and WSs. In total, 6 out of 14 ATs. Since we need to cater to SO/generic IO-only builds, as also stated in this thread and others, we can also put half of Dominators on the list. If we remove mez for Blasters because they need to do damage, we may as well remove mez for Controllers because they need to control, and so on, so we may as well just remove the ability for players to get mezzed. Maybe yet another Blasting guide is in order, complete w/ "Avoiding Mez" as a topic... |
Also, have news for you. Mez is already 95% removed from controllers, because controllers mez the targets first. When your primary powerset's primary mission is to disable the ability for your enemies to do anything, you find you get mezzed far less often than the one whose primary design feature is to get hit in the face.
Mez protection is not the only way to avoid mez. Dominators are protected from mez when Domination is up, and countering mez with their own mez when Domination is down. The last dominator I leveled to 50 was a mind dom, and I have to tell you that I used domination more for the free endurance than for the mez protection. Nothing was ever *shooting* at me, much less mezzing me. I felt safer than I do on the current scrapper I'm leveling to 50 a willpower scrapper.
No one is saying, at least I'm not, that Blasters must be free from mez all the time because they are supposed to be shooting all the time. The last time Blasters were adjusted in Issue 11 with Defiance 2.0 they were allowed to use three attacks when mezzed not because they were meant to ignore mez but because they were dead all the time.
On the bright side, you were not ignored.
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I took a break from my all blasters all the time mission to roll up a Fire/Dark controller.
You know what - Mez didn't bother me and that was running at -1 x 8 starting at level 10. I was doing the Midnighters arc and died a grand total of 3 times from 10-13 mostly due to my own increasing bravado.
Since I was frying single groups with ease I started pulling 2 or more at once. Having a self heal, mass immobilize and debuffs like crazy meant even with 9 Lost Lts firing at me - they rarely mezzed me and even less often did any serious damage to me. I Hot footed and fire caged them to death in the hundreds.
In fact I would say the exact same issue as Arcana said earlier - if I ran out of end - I died. So occasionally my darkest night was too successful and I pulled too many. I can already see once I add some SO I am going to level at a faster speed than any blaster could ever do solo. This rivals a Fire/Dark corr for leveling speed.
So Zeh_Masteh I can say the guide to not being mezzed is create a character with debuffs, heals and -to hit powers. I never see any of these folks saying I don't get mezzed on my Fire/Fire blaster for some reason............
Just a quick thought... Why not tie soft control effects into aim and buildup? Admittedly some sets might need a little more thought like devices, or archery, but I think that would add to survivability perfectly. You'd still need to make hard decisions on when to use it and it would be proactive instead of reactive like previously suggested effects when you get mezzed. I think I'd want it in ask powers to some degree as well, not just ST.
Just a thought.
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The thought has crossed my mind to make Build Up and/or Aim into a powerboost-like power that boosted control effects, going back a long long time. But the problem with that is that its not that Blaster control effects need to be stronger, its that they need to exist more.|
Originally Posted by Udun01
Just a quick thought... Why not tie soft control effects into aim and buildup? Admittedly some sets might need a little more thought like traps, or archery, but I think that would add to survivability perfectly. You'd still need to make hard decisions on when to use it and it would be proactive instead of reactive like previously suggested effects when you get mezzed. I think I'd want it in ask powers to some degree as well, not just ST.
Just a thought. |
Also, I think you mean Devices for blasters, not Traps. Devices is problematic because it doesn't have Build Up. And I don't know if you meant Assault Rifle, not Archery, because AR doesn't have Aim. So the combination of AR/Dev lacks both Build Up and Aim.
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Got traps on the brain, I have a traps/beam defender that just eats things. And yes it's assault rifle I was thinking of...
Not a power boost but add a secondary soft control like was talked about earlier. A fear effect or maybe knock down.. Hell even a 4 second confuse (fog of war type thing, panic) to keep the alpha off you with an aoe or to down a mezzer before he can mez you. I really like the idea of situational soft control added to blaster attacks, I just think it would be great if we could choose when they kick in.
I know it would need extra thought for certain sets but I think it's the best path to choose.
Sorry if this isn't reading clearly.. it's what I get for replying with my phone.
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I guessed the phone part when AoE turned into ask. But I prefer a soft control addition that was on all the time than one that followed BU and Aim simply because not everyone has BU and/or Aim, and each has very low uptimes outside of extremely high invention-boosted recharge builds - the very builds that least need help.|
Originally Posted by Udun01
Got traps on the brain, I have a traps/beam defender that just eats things. And yes it's assault rifle I was thinking of...
Not a power boost but add a secondary soft control like was talked about earlier. A fear effect or maybe knock down.. Hell even a 4 second confuse (fog of war type thing, panic) to keep the alpha off you with an aoe or to down a mezzer before he can mez you. I really like the idea of situational soft control added to blaster attacks, I just think it would be great if we could choose when they kick in. I know it would need extra thought for certain sets but I think it's the best path to choose. Sorry if this isn't reading clearly.. it's what I get for replying with my phone. |
Also, if you happen to get mezzed, neither BU nor Aim are currently usable while mezzed so you couldn't use them to assist with deploying your countermez, and this would also force blasters to keep one of their offensive weapons in reserve to deal with mez rather than using them primarily for offensive power. BU and Aim are often used on the alpha strike, but that would eliminate them from being used as counter-mez weapons after the first few seconds of the fight.
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This is the reason that I don't like the idea of tying these things into BU and Aim: I don't want to ever be in a position where I decide not to use those powers because I know that I'm going to be facing mezzers. Blasters are not currently in a position where their damage is superior enough that they should have to hold back some of it in order to gain the survivability that everybody else takes for granted.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Also, if you happen to get mezzed, neither BU nor Aim are currently usable while mezzed so you couldn't use them to assist with deploying your countermez, and this would also force blasters to keep one of their offensive weapons in reserve to deal with mez rather than using them primarily for offensive power. BU and Aim are often used on the alpha strike, but that would eliminate them from being used as counter-mez weapons after the first few seconds of the fight.
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So far, my favorite anti-mez mechanic is the one where a Blaster has a passive mez resistance power that has a self-stacking component, but is normally suppressed, something like (the numbers are demonstrative and would have to be adjusted):
Activation Period: 1s
+50% Resist(Mez) for 10s (does not stack from same caster)
+50% Resist(Mez) for 10s (only when mezzed; stackable)
That way short duration mezzes don't get reduced by much, but long ones get cut down severely. This is basically the way I felt PvP Mez Suppression should have been handled back in the day, as it basically applies a diminishing return system to mez duration, and even helps with the issue of chain mezzing, since the stacked resistance will still hang around for 10 seconds.
EDIT:
The above is assuming we're even wanting to go with some kind of passive way to deal with mez. I much prefer something more proactive.
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Scaling mez resistance is, I believe, the best way to deal with excessively long duration mez. Separate from that, I also prefer a more proactive method of dealing with mez, which is why I suggest counter-mez in attacks: it is not only good for countering mez, its good for countering damage in general and aligns well with the offensive focused nature of the blaster archetype.
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Originally Posted by Diellan_
This is the reason that I don't like the idea of tying these things into BU and Aim: I don't want to ever be in a position where I decide not to use those powers because I know that I'm going to be facing mezzers. Blasters are not currently in a position where their damage is superior enough that they should have to hold back some of it in order to gain the survivability that everybody else takes for granted.
So far, my favorite anti-mez mechanic is the one where a Blaster has a passive mez resistance power that has a self-stacking component, but is normally suppressed, something like (the numbers are demonstrative and would have to be adjusted): Activation Period: 1s +50% Resist(Mez) for 10s (does not stack from same caster) +50% Resist(Mez) for 10s (only when mezzed; stackable) That way short duration mezzes don't get reduced by much, but long ones get cut down severely. This is basically the way I felt PvP Mez Suppression should have been handled back in the day, as it basically applies a diminishing return system to mez duration, and even helps with the issue of chain mezzing, since the stacked resistance will still hang around for 10 seconds. EDIT: The above is assuming we're even wanting to go with some kind of passive way to deal with mez. I much prefer something more proactive. |
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I think we mostly agree that a proactive method is preferred... How do you convince the devs of this? Or better yet get them to take action at all in a semi-reasonable time frame
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Ever see the movie The Neverending Story? You're sort of in it now.
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Originally Posted by Udun01
I think we mostly agree that a proactive method is preferred... How do you convince the devs of this? Or better yet get them to take action at all in a semi-reasonable time frame
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Scaling mez resistance like this is something I think every character should have (maybe as part of Health, instead of its current Sleep resistance?), but I wouldn't want to implement it if only because it'd encourage the Devs to start giving out even longer duration mezzes in order to counter it. One of the things I liked from new other MMO in space is that all mezzes in that game are a matter of seconds, whether from an enemy or a player.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Scaling mez resistance is, I believe, the best way to deal with excessively long duration mez. Separate from that, I also prefer a more proactive method of dealing with mez, which is why I suggest counter-mez in attacks: it is not only good for countering mez, its good for countering damage in general and aligns well with the offensive focused nature of the blaster archetype.
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Atreyu was an archery blaster.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Ever see the movie The Neverending Story? You're sort of in it now.
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I finally got fed up with my Gunmage and left her at 43. I'll hop on if I can find a group to run with, but it was unbearably frustrating running at +0/x1 and still being picked off by a single pull if my mez missed (admittedly, I was facing Malta, so one mistake resulted in a sapper decimating my blue bar). In TF's and Trials it felt like she contributed pretty well, she could cut down entire enemy groups while the more support oriented members kept them at bay and whittled their health down, but solo was aggravating - if anything went wrong you either ran or died, there was no middle ground. Running on a Necro/Dark MM now, it's refreshing. If I get mezzed, my entire primary pool still functions (albeit on a somewhat retarded AI), and I have ways to proactively avoid mez like flooring their tohit, cone fear, or just sending in the meat shields first. So much easier.
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If everyone was supposed to have it in equal quantities, I would just change the mez duration formula instead. These tick-y stack-y powers have a disproportional impact on server resources.
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Originally Posted by Diellan_
Scaling mez resistance like this is something I think every character should have (maybe as part of Health, instead of its current Sleep resistance?), but I wouldn't want to implement it if only because it'd encourage the Devs to start giving out even longer duration mezzes in order to counter it. One of the things I liked from new other MMO in space is that all mezzes in that game are a matter of seconds, whether from an enemy or a player.
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Since he only dies once, he was probably an Archery corruptor.
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
Atreyu was an archery blaster.
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Pffft.. I don't remember him using his bow at all. It was just a costume piece. He killed the wolf with a sharp pointy object and then when his world fell apart the devs wished real hard and gave it back..
I'm thinking scrapper?
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I'm betting scrapper and the bow was just a gift from Waylon McCrane.....
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Originally Posted by Udun01
Pffft.. I don't remember him using his bow at all. It was just a costume piece. He killed the wolf with a sharp pointy object and then when his world fell apart the devs wished real hard and gave it back..
I'm thinking scrapper? |
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Except that this system would deal with chain mezzing, while simply changing the duration formula would not.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If everyone was supposed to have it in equal quantities, I would just change the mez duration formula instead. These tick-y stack-y powers have a disproportional impact on server resources.
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Hmmm, what about giving them a activatable Innate ability like the Dominators have that, when turned on, breaks the Blaster free from a mezz and gives it protection (sort of like a built in rechargable Escape)
Or like someone mentioned several times in the forum, the ability to stack resistance to mezzes that builds from your attacks like Assassins focus.
Here's a totally outrageous suggestion....
95% of all mezzes that hit a blaster simply have no effect. That would put the blaster on par with all the other ATs.
Scrappers, Tanks, and Brutes have mez protection, mez resistance, and some of them have built in defense that further reduce the number of mezzes that hit let alone have any effect.
Debuffing defenders and corruptors can floor mob to hit values meaning that only 5% of all mez effect them (with the very notable exception of Trick Arrow). Some defender buffing sets have mez protection built into them. The other defender buffing sets have no real need to enter combat on a team.
Controllers get all of the above and can lock down entire spawns with hard controls.
Dominators can lock down entire spawns and if they get mezzed accidentally, can use domination to eliminate the threat.
Master minds can still use their pets for attack and defense even while mezzed and some master mind secondaries provide mez protection.
HEATs and VEATs get mez protection.
What does the blaster get? They get to play as if they were level 2 and die in a high mez environment, while 95% or more of all mez launched at other ATs has absolutely no deleterious effect on them.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
The problem with setting a standard of play is that there's no way to decide what a reasonable standard is. Which is why I mentioned specifically something people actually did just to make a powerset work which today would be seen as absurd. It is absurd, but on the other hand it works. On what basis would you claim it was unacceptable to expect players to be able to do that, but having them replicate whatever it is you do is reasonable? And I'm giving you a softball example in that I drew the most extreme one I could think of. If you cannot make an airtight case with that, you are unlikely to be able to do so with any other example.
Dismissing the example because its extreme rather than addressing the extremity of the example misses the point.
Edit: accidental double cut and paste error snipped
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