SSA #6 Story Discussion ** SPOILERS **
By
15bribri15,
Posted on: 2012-02-21 05:43 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
As for "expecting Wade to help," it's important to note that that caption is not spoken by Psyche, but by the Aurora fragment. "Aurora" was explicitly told that Wade would help her be free and then found out that Wade is perfectly happy to simply kill her off along with Psyche. Naive on "Aurora's" part, yes, but not as ludicrous as Psyche thinking Wade was a cool dude.
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Nah. Again, we're theorising that he did with a little backup from his in-story dialog. But he has the power of Plot, pure and simple. The great saying of 'no plan survives contact with the enemy' goes right out the window here, because since Part 1, Wade hasn't put a foot wrong. |
Originally Posted by Doctor_Minerva
I didn't feel it was particularly egregious, but rather a reasonable precaution. He's had a great deal of time to plan, and he understands what has been done to Sister Psyche and he knows what has to be done to cure it, so it just makes sense for him to account for that.
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Consider that a moment. His timing has been perfect. His plans flawless, unable to be predicted by anyone or prevented similarly. When you write fiction, you can do that. There's noone else involved that can disrupt that.
In a game like this, it becomes painfully obvious that you have to point the player in a direction they have not even the illusion of say in to achieve that end. There's a lot of subtler ways this could've been done, and a lot more believable, too.
But this way...I just don't believe in it or Wade's abilities anymore. The power of Plot is glaringly in the open.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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Right right, makes sense. Still .. Pancake!
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
As for "expecting Wade to help," it's important to note that that caption is not spoken by Psyche, but by the Aurora fragment. "Aurora" was explicitly told that Wade would help her be free and then found out that Wade is perfectly happy to simply kill her off along with Psyche. Naive on "Aurora's" part, yes, but not as ludicrous as Psyche thinking Wade was a cool dude.
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Pinnacle & Virtue:
A bunch of Heroes - Alpha Team, Legion of Order.
A bunch of Villains -Black Citadel , Pinnache.
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I'm just saying that I don't think this is the case here, though. Sister Psyche has a very specific problem with only one solution. Wade was the cause of the problem, so it's not unreasonable to assume that he knows what the solution would be too, and he's had the time and the opportunity to work his sabotage well in advance. It's not like he was able to predict what we'd do from any number of possible answers. If we wanted to heal Psyche, we had to perform the ritual.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I can totally relate to where JC is coming from. I hate movies that have omniscient villains, this means you Dark Knight.
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In Camazotz all are equal. Everybody is the same as everybody else.
I agree with you, I think it makes sufficient sense... if you run the villain version. It definitely seems like this won't be the last we hear of Wade's BS Mastery powers from people who only run the hero version though, and I can't blame them.
Also, now doing Blue, we should get Yin's powers in a new set. Albeit with quieter effects.
Pinnacle & Virtue:
A bunch of Heroes - Alpha Team, Legion of Order.
A bunch of Villains -Black Citadel , Pinnache.
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We did have to perform the ritual, but plenty of people have given examples of how this could have been done better. Magic-inclined heroes helping, Get some psychic characters in there to contain Psyche's rampant powers, knocking her out instead of killing her, and knowing that Manticore would kill his wife, that's a big hail mary pass right there. What if Manticore would have sacrificed everyone in Paragon and himself just to save Psyche? Wade's plan throughout all of this could have gone wrong at so many places that it didn't, and most of the reason for that is the Freedom Phalanx is acting like dummies. All of them going in alone, walking into obvious traps, no back-up plans or back-up in general. I think Wade found a spell that he's been weaving for the last 10 years to make the Phalanx not notice when a plan of action is a bad idea.
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Originally Posted by Doctor_Minerva
I'm just saying that I don't think this is the case here, though. Sister Psyche has a very specific problem with only one solution. Wade was the cause of the problem, so it's not unreasonable to assume that he knows what the solution would be too, and he's had the time and the opportunity to work his sabotage well in advance. It's not like he was able to predict what we'd do from any number of possible answers. If we wanted to heal Psyche, we had to perform the ritual.
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Specialist Greer is pretty explicit that this is what happened in the end of arc debriefing.
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Originally Posted by SuperOz
Nah. Again, we're theorising that he did with a little backup from his in-story dialog.
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In Camazotz all are equal. Everybody is the same as everybody else.
I posted in detail my response to the story in another arc, so I'll just summarize here.
(1) Yet again, we are guaranteed failure. Heroes failing makes great drama in comic books. A guaranteed loss in a game annoys and frustrates me. Count me in with Kirk on this.
(2) As detailed in many places, while other arcs had the idiot ball in various NPC hero hands, this arc firmly places it in our hands. Please. My hero is not an idiot. I'm not saying Edwina Eaglethorpe can't be tricked, but she's going to do a bit more checking of things out.
(3) As with the last few SSAs, our player characters (blue side at least, haven't run red side) are neither the protagonist or antagonist, we're spear carriers. This story was about Penelope Yin stepping up to be a hero, and Manticore having to make a hard choice. I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but based on the story so far, SSA#7 is going to be about Penelope Yin (or maybe some other NPC) taking down Darrin Wade and reclaiming the powers from him - with a minor assist from our player characters.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
I guess my issue in the whole thing was Tyrka.
When the assassin popped up, I was half expecting it to be a major NPC we'd never expect to be working with Wade. It couldn't be the villain player's NPC stand in like Echidna was at the begining of it all, because we all know that the Villains got fed up with Wade when he offed Statesman.
Speaking of which, I am significantly surprised Recluse hasn't personally stepped in to break Wade's neck. While he and States have been enemies for a while, you'd think the big guy would have some kind of emotional investment, some remnant of respect for the man he considered family. If not, he'd be angry at the guy who stole his kill.
Anyway, back to Tyrka
When I got there, I was confused as to who this person was. Do they appear in any other story arc? Who are they? Why are they working with Wade? Am I meant to be shocked by this revelation? If Manticore and Psyche are in danger, why am I still fighting this person? Why couldn't I send Yin, the world's most powerful psychic, to go back and calm Psyche down? If they were only there for me, Yin would be perfectly capable of running back real quick and surpressing psyche enough for it all to be stopped, why didn't that happen? If mediporters are known of in game lore, and had a story arc at level 20 dedicated to them, why don't the Phalanx have any?
While I can see what they plan on doing with this arc, it all raises too many questions for it to be enjoyable, part 6 especially. If Part 7 is going to be dedicated to ending the whole thing, I can see it as being one long series of missions if they want to end it on a satisfying note. If not, then I guess we'll have to wait for volume 2
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Right, because even though Manticore does tend to be one of the more morally gray heroes in the Phalanx, he's totally willing to kill all the innocent inhabitants of the Rogue Isles just to eliminate Arachnos. He's ruthless, but is he really a sociopath?
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Originally Posted by Ogi
Why stop it? If his hacked teleporter can get to the the Rogue Isles he can kill a whole flock of birds with just two stones.
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Pretty much this.|
Originally Posted by GadgetDon
I posted in detail my response to the story in another arc, so I'll just summarize here.
(1) Yet again, we are guaranteed failure. Heroes failing makes great drama in comic books. A guaranteed loss in a game annoys and frustrates me. Count me in with Kirk on this. (2) As detailed in many places, while other arcs had the idiot ball in various NPC hero hands, this arc firmly places it in our hands. Please. My hero is not an idiot. I'm not saying Edwina Eaglethorpe can't be tricked, but she's going to do a bit more checking of things out. (3) As with the last few SSAs, our player characters (blue side at least, haven't run red side) are neither the protagonist or antagonist, we're spear carriers. This story was about Penelope Yin stepping up to be a hero, and Manticore having to make a hard choice. I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but based on the story so far, SSA#7 is going to be about Penelope Yin (or maybe some other NPC) taking down Darrin Wade and reclaiming the powers from him - with a minor assist from our player characters. |
Looking forward to the new psychic weapons powerset coming later this year though.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Prepare to be surprised. My plot sensors put the chance of players dramatically taking Wade down singlehandedly at 80%. In the event that it's players plus the phalanx taking him down together, expect to be personally lauded at great length in the closing cutscene. Rather than having the phalanx and the player versus Wade, though, I predict that they will all be either incapacitated or occupied with Wade's minions during the final confrontation. I could see Manticore being an ally for the fight given the extent to which he has been messed with and forcibly character-developed, perhaps.|
Originally Posted by GadgetDon
(3) As with the last few SSAs, our player characters (blue side at least, haven't run red side) are neither the protagonist or antagonist, we're spear carriers. This story was about Penelope Yin stepping up to be a hero, and Manticore having to make a hard choice. I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but based on the story so far, SSA#7 is going to be about Penelope Yin (or maybe some other NPC) taking down Darrin Wade and reclaiming the powers from him - with a minor assist from our player characters.
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Anyway, I derive my confidence level in this from the fact that making the player feel cool has been thoroughly proven to be a winning formula at this point. See any game by Bioware. You can't walk five feet without someone pointing out how amazing you are, and typically you're also the chosen one, because why not. In that context I think the SSA has been good about restraining its enthusiasm to put the player on a pedestal, but probably because it's saving it up for the climax.
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I read that, and I read the 'we still have a weapon that can defeat him' bit, too. Power of Plot, sorry. If these things weren't plot convenient, then we would've had a weapon to stop Wade as far back as Part 1. |
Originally Posted by Doctor_Minerva
Specialist Greer is pretty explicit that this is what happened in the end of arc debriefing.
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So I was still meh.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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It's not a question of whether or not you can handwave it. You always can. It's a question of whether or not you need to.
| Specialist Greer is pretty explicit that this is what happened in the end of arc debriefing. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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My guess is Tyrk-rora will be an instrumental character in the second SSA, yeah. For heroes this will mean that she'll have to be fleshed out via a cutscene, though, since for all her involvement in parts four and six for villains, heroes never get word one about her whos, hows or whys. I also find it a little weird that someone being built up to be a significant NPC has such a bland look, but then they may simply have taken to heart player demand for skirt-wearing Circle.
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Originally Posted by ArticulateT
I guess my issue in the whole thing was Tyrka.
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Perhaps redside WWD 1-6 gave you that impression but blueside 1-5 and apparently 6 do not make you feel "cool". |
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Anyway, I derive my confidence level in this from the fact that making the player feel cool has been thoroughly proven to be a winning formula at this point.
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1 and 2 were "meh, another day at the office", 3 was a herofail (1 confirmed dead), 4 was a herofail (1 almost dead), 5 was a herofail (1 confirmed dead) with the almost dead from 4 taken care of in 6.
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Heh, so you can get your HO enhancements from doing the HOTF (Hero One Task Force)? Very punny.
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Originally Posted by Mad_Scientist_JC
People have been guessing that a de-riktified Hero 1 will be taking States' place in handing out the Statesman TF.
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Yes, but because we're trying so hard we get a medal for our efforts anyway. Besides, we're clearly the only thing that Wade totally fears, except when he doesn't. That makes you feel cool, doesn't it?|
Originally Posted by Ogi
Perhaps redside WWD 1-6 gave you that impression but blueside 1-5 and apparently 6 do not make you feel "cool".
1 and 2 were "meh, another day at the office", 3 was a herofail (1 confirmed dead), 4 was a herofail (1 almost dead), 5 was a herofail (1 confirmed dead) with the almost dead from 4 taken care of in 6. |
Really, I don't see why they don't just kill the whole damn Phalanx and get it over with.
"How many flips is that, in toto?"
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Well, really you'll be getting your Synthetic Hamidon Origins from the Sedated Hero One Task Force.|
Originally Posted by Codewalker
Heh, so you can get your HO enhancements from doing the HOTF (Hero One Task Force)? Very punny.
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Ogi, I consider the fact that the player is even on the scene at all of these major events to be a pretty large concession to player coolness. Look at any legacy arc: every single allegedly cool thing that happens happens in the mission debriefing because they didn't have the wherewithal to put it into the missions themselves and still release the game on time. I agree that the mood is pretty dire after part six, but if the options are "The devs want players to suffer because they secretly dislike them" or "The devs want to create a situation so bleak that it would take the king of all badasses to come in and save the hapless NPCs from themselves," do you really think they're going to go with option one?
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Oh, I'm sure the players will be lauded, just like in the final debrief, we were told about how important we were, how Wade is afraid of us, blah blah blah. Even though we've accomplished nothing throughout the 6 arcs to really set back Wade's plans at all.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Prepare to be surprised. My plot sensors put the chance of players dramatically taking Wade down singlehandedly at 80%. In the event that it's players plus the phalanx taking him down together, expect to be personally lauded at great length in the closing cutscene. Rather than having the phalanx and the player versus Wade, though, I predict that they will all be either incapacitated or occupied with Wade's minions during the final confrontation. I could see Manticore being an ally for the fight given the extent to which he has been messed with and forcibly character-developed, perhaps.
Anyway, I derive my confidence level in this from the fact that making the player feel cool has been thoroughly proven to be a winning formula at this point. See any game by Bioware. You can't walk five feet without someone pointing out how amazing you are, and typically you're also the chosen one, because why not. In that context I think the SSA has been good about restraining its enthusiasm to put the player on a pedestal, but probably because it's saving it up for the climax. |
It's not the kudos and pedestal that matter. It's being involved. Presumably, in City of Heroes, there are lots of plots being run by lots of villains and are foiled by lots of heroes. Each hero is saving the day in their own stories. (The fact that there are a limited number of stories, so every player hero is dealing with the same plots by the same villains is something we ignore.) But the arcs we run, it's about us taking on the bad guy. Sometimes as part of a team with other player heroes, sometimes solo, but it's our story.
Except with the SSAs, where most of the time, the characters making the hard choices or taking the big risks or striking the major blow is the NPC.
And here's why I think it'll continue: Wade has Statesman's Incarnate powers (and probably Sister Psyche's powers too). In any reasonable comic book story, whoever takes Wade down will take at least some of those powers and more importantly the burden and responsibility of them, the requirement to be that symbol (unless they can be returned to their "proper" owner which we've been told is NOT going to happen at least for Statesman). That can't be us, because the reward for completing the SSA7 arc isn't going to be "your character is now an NPC" nor are we going to have all incarnate slots unlocked and filled out with Tier 4 enhancements from running one arc. So that role will go to someone else. Makes sense from a dramatic storytelling basis, but makes it the NPC's story, not ours. And the reason I play CoH instead of watching TV or movies is that it's to be my story (or my character's story).
Maybe they'll surprise me, maybe it really will be my hero taking down Wade with some handwaving for why she doesn't get the powers and the spot on the boat. But given how much they've depended on NPC characters driving the story so far, it will be a surprise.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
Hmm, I guess I just don't agree that whoever beats Wade would have to obtain his powers. After all, we've seen the lengths to which he had to go to absorb powers in the first place, indeed they've really talked up how hard it is to steal someone's powers. Villains did get a taste of Synapse's powers but that was due to the presence of the obelisk.
The way I see it going down, Wade is going to be a big menacing floaty dude who may or may not have desk-poundingly annoying stats and the culmination of his threat will be that he'll be intended to be an extremely hard fight. Probably he'll summon some EBs that need to be culled. Maybe this is just wishful thinking because that's my idea of a good time, but I would be super amazed if they didn't let player heroes as well as villains bask in the glow of taking Wade out given the trajectory of the arc to this point.
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Once again ... Manticore/Justin is shown to be THE MAN WITHOUT A PLAN. |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
1. Stunning Shot.
2. Ice Arrow. 3. EMP Arrow. 4. Poison Gas Arrow 5. Manual choke hold to knock her out. 6. Using his hacked teleporter to send her out of range of both Paragon and the artifact overpowering her. 7. All of the above. I can think of six things to do in that situation besides running her through with an arrow, and I don't have over 25 years experience being a superhero and dealing with psychics. |
My first thought on seeing the cutscene (on both sides of this) was ... "why didn't you rig the altar with explosives BEFORE you put YOUR WIFE on it so that you could blow it if something went wrong?" You carry EXPLOSIVE arrows in your quiver man! How long would it have taken you to MacGuyver up a way to blow'n'crack the altar (thus rendering it inert and non-functional as a fallback option) just in case something "went wrong" or you had some sort of horrendous feedback loop problem (like you actually DID) so as to give yourself some options?
My second thought on watching the cutscene (on both sides of this) was ... "why the flipping pancake did you reach for the POINTY arrow?!?" Either the Sleep Gas arrow or the Stunning Shot arrow would have been SO MUCH BETTER and more preferable to use!
My third thought on watching the cutscene (on blueside) and getting back Manticore was ... "are you so incompetent you don't even HAVE A WAKIE?!?" ... quickly followed by ... "you fool, she's only been 'dead' for less than a minute, not HOURS like Alexis was!! DO SOMETHING!!"
/em batsmash
I thought it was weird enough to have Sister Psyche tagging along beside me (blueside) in Mission 3, being a NON-combatant (whiskey tango foxtrot?) while Penelope Yin just mops the floor with everything we encounter. Shalice Tilman didn't look *at all* "out of it" in terms of being able to walk/run/swim/jump around, to the point where I kept wondering to myself, "if she's this ambulatory/functional/self-propelled ... WHY are we doing this again?"
The only possible way I can see myself "forgiving" the writing-slash-railroading we see in SSA 6 is if somehow Sister Psyche is now mind-riding Justin/Manticore ... so that even if her original BODY is dead, just like Mother Mayhem's was/is, Sister Psyche is still very much "alive" in mind and spirit, and just merely in need of a willing "host" body to continue living in (like both Aurora Borealis-es on Primal and Praetoria). Of course, that would be a really *WEIRD* thing to have happen to Justin/Shalice, where they wind up being united in mind, body and spirit like that ... but it's not IMPOSSIBLE given the way things are turning out.
And as for how the blueside Mission 3 plays out ... really brilliant plan of having the OTHER greatest psychic in the world tag along with ME to deal with an assassin, rather than stick around with Manticore and Sister Psyche to help with the ritual to HEAL THE PSYCHIC!
It's like Manitcore is the anti-Nemesis or something. No matter what happens, he manages to screw things up and only make the situation worse for himself. Even when his allies (ie. the Players) are "victorious" he still manages to snatch Defeat from the jaws of Victory. He's like the poster boy for LOSE AND FAIL right now.
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| "Evil will always triumph, BECAUSE GOOD IS DUMB!" |
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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Eh, [Psychic Bomb] could be a granted autopower that persists through defeat, like Mystic Fortune (you still have the icon while faceplanted, even when Fitness disappears). Some clicks work while defeated, too. So there's precedent.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
That goes against everything this game presents about powers. When you faceplant, toggles, clicks, even auto powers, stop working.
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Whether or not powers like that would continue to work when someone's fully dead, we have no basis of comparison for, since our characters can't actually DIE.
Now that she's dead (if it's not "comic book dead"), she's been quickly replaced on the team by Penelope Yin, but her point of view and personality haven't been sufficiently portrayed for us to appreciate what her absence from the game will signify. Just as with Statesman, if we don't really know what Sister Psyche stood for, why should we be moved by her fall?