Discussion: Featured Items at the Paragon Market - 2/14/12
By
2short2care,
Posted on: 2012-02-14 10:50 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
*re-opens discussion page. Gets hit by a fireblast. cough*
Whew that's pretty hot!
Anyway, after reading the posts I think it's mostly devolved into either 'I lurv the packs and you're stupid not for liking them stupid-head!' or 'packs are illegal and rude and the antithesis to everything I ever liked about CoH Evar!'
So I'm gonna put my two cents in again.
On the Super packs : Randomized packs of goodies is not a bad idea. I like the idea that for 80pp I could have a random chance of getting fun, useful things. The fact that for 80pp I'm getting quite a lot is a good thing, and I like the idea. You do get your 'money's worth' in what you buy.(there's no chance you'll receive 'nothing')
However, Myself and(I think( a large number of people are reacting to this so negatively not beacause we want to be selfish or think everything has to go our way, but that we don't think it's fair nor in keeping with that sense of community-to-developer communication that makes CoH so special, and that NCSoft is not offering something we'd actually pay money to support without forcing us to potentially(and a luck-based/computer generated potential to boot!) spend far in excess of what we've paid for in the past, with no honest guarantee other than 'if you spend 3-4x the amount you were gonna spend you should get them all(and that doesn't include the vanity pet btw)'.
The problem isn't the fact that the Super-Packs suck or are bad or are money-grubbing.(at least I don't think they are, I just think it's a wrong idea to make costume sets exclusive to them). It's that there was no option to buy things in the packs separately. Which means everyone is forced(forced as in if you want to buy them not as in NCSoft is twisting your arm to buy from the store) to buy these packs rather than being able to spend more money to get the items guaranteed. I don't think anyone here is really suggesting that we should just get everything for free forever and Paragon Studios should just spend their own money to give us free CoH. (and if they are that's just silly.)
So can we please stop accusing everyone of either being crazy/selfish/illegal/babies/stupid now? This is a Discussion thread, not a flame thread, and I'd like the Devs to actually read these posts and go 'that's a good point we should do something(or not)' instead of ignoring the thread.
[member of NeXt Gen][Member of LEGION]
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I'm sure the guy on a one-armed bandit pulling triple 7's is happy with the result too. That doesn't change the fact of what is taking place.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Except I'm happy with every result I got. It's gambling to some, fun for others. And that's why the 'legal threats' from bozos who want to try to strong-arm Paragon to put the Elemental Order set on the market can go jump off a bridge into a pit of ravenous bunnies.
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As to "legal threats".
Paragon is free to do with the game what they will. And minors can buy CCGs and the like. Those that view this development as unhealthy and dubious are free to not spend cash on this. That's about the extent of this.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Think about buying up almost all the tickets in a raffle.|
Originally Posted by Equation
I'm curious how it is gambling if you are guarenteed a prize at the end of each one, true you have no control over WHICH prize you get.
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You're pretty much guaranteed a prize. And yes, the odds of "losing" have been destroyed. But it's still gambling.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Considering that most of the rest is chaff to me?|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
By that logic, every time you engage in combat in the game, you're gambling. Every swing you take or the enemy takes, the results are left up to random chance. If you want to be nitpicky technical on the definition, you don't have to be spending money each swing for it to be gambling...
But, here's something to consider: Even the absolute worst draw from a Super Pack has more than a buck's worth of consumables, merits, and such. Kind of a piss-poor gambling system when you're guaranteed to get more than your money's worth every time, isn't it? |
Is the alternate, non-costume drop stuff useful? Sure, not debating that.
Would I have straight-bought them as separate items? Nope.
So, just because I'm given my lifetime supply of Stuff{TM} doesn't mean I consider it "worth it". Again, I'd much rather have the option to buy the costume pack, even at an artificially inflated price than wangle my way through Magic: The CoH'ening.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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I never went into heroclix for just that reason, despite getting the free first rush from City of Villains Collector's Edition - or any other trading/miniature game, for that matter.|
Originally Posted by monkey0707
Have you never played any trading/miniature game on the market, how about almost all F2P games, or most video games? Almost every single one has random packs or items you ahve to spend money on, I don't even want to go in to detail how much I have spent on something like heroclix.
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Random packs is kind of micro rewards on speed. It deliberately hooks into the reward mechanism and hijacks it using anticipation, which enhances and amplifies the reward mechanism. Even if you didn't get what you wanted, the anticipation-amplified reward mechanism pushes you towards spending to buy another one. It dangles the carrot just inches from your face and randomly snatches it away from you.
It is a very powerful combination, and that's exactly why it is used in F2P games and trading miniature/card games in the real world as well.
The objective behind such a scheme is by using the anticipation-amplified reward mechanism to get the user to spend more, by spending less on each individual spending and using the randomness to have him buy another one.
I can't say that it's morally bankrupt. However, I think it is dubious, and I don't want to buy stuff on those conditions. I want to be presented with the products and a price tag straight up. That way I can make an honest appreciation of the product's value without having my brain hijacked by exploitations of its reward mechanisms.
Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"
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Bought a case of MechWarrior: DarkAge at GenCon the year it debuted. I'd playtested it, and never played the game after that. So why'd I do it? Someone paid me for the case.|
Originally Posted by monkey0707
Have you never played any trading/miniature game on the market
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I avoided MtG and all its clones. I detest "collectible" games. I don't want to play against someone who's gotten randomly lucky or spent hundreds of dollars on "valuable" cards and has the deck (pun intentional) stacked in their favor.
In terms of costume pieces, and the like, I'd rather have a way to earn them in-game or spec-buy them on the market. I don't and won't "roll the dice" for them using a real-money analog.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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I had 1$ spare, so I had a choice to either go and buy 2 costume pieces or 1 super pack, I elected to go for a super pack regardless of what's within the pack, I just purchased the pack, where is the gamble?|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
I'm sure the guy on a one-armed bandit pulling triple 7's is happy with the result too. That doesn't change the fact of what is taking place.
As to "legal threats". Paragon is free to do with the game what they will. And minors can buy CCGs and the like. Those that view this development as unhealthy and dubious are free to not spend cash on this. That's about the extent of this. |
Now if I had a chance of purchasing the pack and not getting the pack, that's gambling.
I purchased the pack not the goods within it.
Too many 50's to list here's a few you may know.
Slazenger, Area51, Area53, Area54, Erruption, Mind Plague, Thresher, Sheath, Broadside, Debt
Bought the 24 pack and received:
-full costume set
-2000+ reward merits
-a dozen or so ATOs
-3 catalysts
-a bunch of inspirations
-a bunch of unslotters, xp boosters, etc.
All told I'm pretty happy. I'll toss any left over points after any power set purchases towards a pack or two from now on.
@bpphantom
The Defenders of Paragon
KGB Special Section 8
Used some points for 24 pack, here is what I received:
675 Merits
All Costume pieces after first 10 packs
15 ATOs
3 Catalysts
10 Dual Insps
8 Team Insps
Enhancement Boosters (81 uses)
Unslotters (19 uses)
Windfall (12 uses)
Restore (17 uses)
Revival (16 uses)
XP Booster (2 uses)
Prestige Booster (1 use)
Experienced (17 uses)
I enjoyed the process of flipping cards. And what someone else has said, now I guess I'll start to use some of these consumables that I wasn't using before (unslotters, boosters etc...)
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The fact that you have no control over what you specifically get is why it is a gamble. You are gambling to get the costume pieces specifically, but you are not gambling to get 4 random items with each card.|
Originally Posted by Equation
I'm curious how it is gambling if you are guarenteed a prize at the end of each one, true you have no control over WHICH prize you get.
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Originally Posted by Tyger42
By that logic, every time you engage in combat in the game, you're gambling. Every swing you take or the enemy takes, the results are left up to random chance. If you want to be nitpicky technical on the definition, you don't have to be spending money each swing for it to be gambling...
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All I want to say is that there is not 'wrong' with gambling in concept. The problem with gambling is the price of it and the individuals who abuse paying the cost.
I have 'gambled' in combat against Super Reflexes (who are purple no less) and lost many many times. At the end of the day I've lost about an hour of my time and my wrist may be sore.
For those that want the costume pieces specifically they may, or may not, choose to 'gamble' for them, by purchasing enough Super Packs until they have obtained them all.
That is the problem that they (those that choose not to purchase them) have with the system, and it frustrates them. It's not that the very essence of gambling is wrong (I'm so not looking for a religious/legal argument) but that they don't want to spend the requirement of points (which can be purchased with money directly, or indirectly via subscription) for the 'chance' to get the costume set.
Personally, I would be happy if I knew that if I purchased 24 packs, I'd get the set for free. Or that certain parts would unlock as I bought enough packs (very similar to the Paragon Point reward system). Simply cause I don't like uncertainty.
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Yeah, like a slot machine! |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
By the way, there really should be some kind of noise when you flip each card
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Got about of hundred of these on Test server just to see what they were like. As for live, if they were 1PP for 10 packs I might (keyword might) get some of them but that would only be with the points I get free with my sub. Pay real $ for them, hahaha not going to happen....
Broomhilda BS/Regen/BM Scrapper, Fiddle Faddle Shield/ElecM/BM Tank,
And many others..
Dev's With all the Great new content, Please!! dont forget to fix the bugs with the old content. There is a storm a brewing because they are not getting fixed. If its a problem that no one is reporting them? Well Maybe you need to look at your tech support then..
I´ve bought a bunch of 24 Super Packs.
I opened all of them already.
I got the whole costume set within 11, 12, or 13 Packs.
Additionally i got
9 ATO´s
5 catalysts
nearly 50 IO Booster
some Unslotter
1175 Merits
Those are nice to have, but in my opinion definitely not worth spending money on it.
and lots of crap (Temps and Inpirations)
I think there shouldn´t be any Windfall-, XP-Booster- and Experienced-Temps in the rare cards.
I don´t think that i will buy any more of this Super Packs, because there is nothing in it that i would be willing to pay for.
It was really fun to open the packs, but the only thing i wanted out of them were the costume parts for which i had no need to buy a bunch of 24.
And afterwards i´m not really sure if it the costumes are worth the cost even if i would only have had to buy 12 packs.
For the price of this i could have bought two other costume bundles.
Selling costumes this way might be alright if there is a new pack once a year, but definitely not more often, since you can´t choose what to buy and what not and there is too much crap in it.
But i really don´t think that i would pay 800PP and more for a single costume set +some goodies.
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^ This|
Originally Posted by Elianta
*re-opens discussion page. Gets hit by a fireblast. cough*
So I'm gonna put my two cents in again. The problem isn't the fact that the Super-Packs suck or are bad or are money-grubbing.(at least I don't think they are, I just think it's a wrong idea to make costume sets exclusive to them). |
Edit: I'd totally purchase the costume bundle and, separately, some super-packs.
Thanks CoX for a fun way to get some highly useful items. Great value! I am very pleased. I planed for this and saved back cash for $100 in points. The 8 tokens from the points got me almost to tier 9 which was a definite factor in my decision.
If you had only guaranteed the full Costume set would drop in the first 12 packs opened, and made sure that the Discounted 12 Pack Bundle was Prominently featured, this thread wold be a lot shorter. Along that line can Anyone say, or has Anyone said that they FAILED to get the full set in 12 packs or less?
I read a lot of the thread last night. This morning I just can't deal with all the vitriol, but will add a tiny drop.
I have a comment about gambling. I will not try to explain all the ins and out of what really constitutes gambling. I will say that people who don't want to gamble should just quit breathing, as with every breath you take, you may inhale a particle of this or that which will cause your eventual death by some from of malady. It is impossible, in life, to Avoid gambling.
Since, properly considered, every action made and every decision taken is a gamble, buying a pack is, in that broadest possible sense, also gamble. But to compare an absolute certainty that you will get useful stuff out of every pack, compounded by the statistical certanties of multiple packs results, to what goes on in a casino or at the corner grocery when you buy a lotto ticket, well that is just plain silly. Don't find the stuff in the packs useful? Then just don't buy packs. Want the costume cheaper and as a stand alone? You may have to grow up and get used to dissappointment.
The best single post I read in the thread last night was number 157. Thank you Arcanaville.
Jak
Technically, the RNG on the Incarnate Trials costs $15 a month 
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I've seen a couple. Sadly unless you give a guaranteed chance for a costume roll there will be people who have bad luck with the RNG. I actually want to say I've seen one or two people who are still missing one or two pieces after 24 rolls but I'm not completely positive about that.
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Originally Posted by JakHammer
Along that line can Anyone say, or has Anyone said that they FAILED to get the full set in 12 packs or less?
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MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812
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I agree, and would have preferred it this way.|
Originally Posted by JakHammer
If you had only guaranteed the full Costume set would drop in the first 12 packs opened, and made sure that the Discounted 12 Pack Bundle was Prominently featured, this thread wold be a lot shorter.
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Originally Posted by JakHammer
Along that line can Anyone say, or has Anyone said that they FAILED to get the full set in 12 packs or less?
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We'll see how this turns out in the future. I just hope my popcorn doesn't get cold.
It only took six of my 24 packs to get the full costume set on my one account. On my other account it took 14 of 24 packs to get all the pieces.
(Sometimes, I wish there could be a Dev thumbs up button for quality posts, because you pretty much nailed it.) -- Ghost Falcon
By the way, does anyone know if the ATOs can be converted when the converters come out? I'm not a big fan of Tanks or MM, so I'd like to know whether I will be able to convert those ATOs into Scrapper, Brute or Dominator ATOs later on.
(Sometimes, I wish there could be a Dev thumbs up button for quality posts, because you pretty much nailed it.) -- Ghost Falcon
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Yes, I compare an optional purchase in a virtual game environment to the real world killing of a child all the time as well. It's totally not hyperbolic, missing and distorting the entire point of the discussion, and insensitive to the point of absurdity to trivialize it by comparing it to "I can't get exactly what I want in exactly the way I want it, every single time?!"|
Originally Posted by Lucky666
The legal system is a joke and all that's left in the free world are kangaroo courts. Just look at the Casey Anthony trial.
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Why in the world would any one think that?
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Originally Posted by Tyger42
Key words: SIZE="7" |
That's more than a random observation. I very much agree with your post. It's sane, despite the obvious flaw of not having a self superior sense of an "I only know of law cases with a minimum of one million hours coverage on a major television network" example. But that's okay. You can work on that.
But back to the main point. I happen to agree with what you said, but if I disagreed, I don't think I'd find the use of obnoxious fonts would persuade me to see your logic. If anything, it'd make me more likely to dismiss any agreeable points you had as hyperbole.
Heck, even agreeing with you, I'd be tempted to ignore it.
Still not as bad as a good solid "Look at that court case about the dead toddler."
Still hate the visit Winscott mission- make it dropable, have it give actual exp or remove it altogether. PS- Down knows who you are.
J/ Wilde/ / AIL - Celebrating five years!
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It took me 14 packs.|
Originally Posted by JakHammer
Along that line can Anyone say, or has Anyone said that they FAILED to get the full set in 12 packs or less?
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One thing to remember on the odds: When you get a costume piece it increases the chance of getting other pieces in that rarity level.
_________
@Inquisitor
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Did you read the reply I quoted? People keep saying it's not gambling this and it's not illegal that, well you know what the legal system is a joke as I said earlier. What they say and what is morally right are two completely different things. Selling things that people can only get threw chance/gambling is taking advantage of addiction. I guess I just thought Paragon Studios was better then that is all.
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Originally Posted by joshdex
Yes, I compare an optional purchase in a virtual game environment to the real world killing of a child all the time as well. It's totally not hyperbolic, missing and distorting the entire point of the discussion, and insensitive to the point of absurdity to trivialize it by comparing it to "I can't get exactly what I want in exactly the way I want it, every single time?!"
Why in the world would any one think that? |
I don't really have a problem with these packs. I have got the full set of costume pieces on two accounts for around 12 packs each account. I'm sorry that some will miss out, but that is their choice or as circumstances dictate.
I really liked what Arcanaville pointed out about those with more money helping subsidize those who couldn't pay as much making the game better for everyone. It certainly makes it more palatable to me when I spend an extra 30 a month for things I want but are not required. Makes me feel less like a chump if I am helping my buddy who really can't afford much more get a better game.
If I was Paragon Studios I would rotate the set out of the packs in 6 months and put a new set to "force" us buy some more packs. Then they could put this in the store. Or maybe they could make the set part of the VIP tier 9 rewards.
I would love it if the pieces that you have to spend AM and EM were added that way. I don't mind the Incarnate trials but I don't like them enough to grind them to get costume pieces, emotes and so forth.
I'm a community activists so I certainly understand the concept of protest, but this just doesn't seem like that big a deal to me.
To all those not buying, I hope you can get the things you want in way that you can live with eventually.
I hear the word morally bankrupt being bashed about, I wonder where those people were when things like the unslotters and boosters, extra enhancement trays were presented on the store for sale.
Some people cannot afford to purchase these sort of things in bundles, but I never heard the term morally bankrupt when they were brought out.
1$ for a super pack maybe all someone could afford so it fit's nicely for those that can't afford 400pp's on costume bundles or any of the above mentioned, yet they are classed as morally bankrupt for spending their 1$ on a chance of getting most of the above, I'm sorry but people need to take a good long look at themselves when it comes to these packs.
Too many 50's to list here's a few you may know.
Slazenger, Area51, Area53, Area54, Erruption, Mind Plague, Thresher, Sheath, Broadside, Debt