Discussion: Featured Items at the Paragon Market - 2/14/12
By
2short2care,
Posted on: 2012-02-14 10:50 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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It is not clear how much the costume set will actually cost a player. Even Synapse couldn't say and he helped to make the system.|
Originally Posted by Doctor Roswell
How is this transaction not clear?
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While the weights of the percentages are shown, there is no way to say if the Elemental Order Gloves (to take a random costume item) costs 60 points or 300 points. Likewise, how much is that one ATO you want? 80 points? 400 points? 1,440 points? More? There is no way to tell at the moment. However with Issue 22 at least the ATO problem is solved: 55 Astrals + 25 million Inf once per 4 days or 100 reward merits + Inf (can't remember exact figure atm) once per 4 days.
So, the packs are not clearly priced, unlike other items on the Paragon Market.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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Anyone know the answer to this question?
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Originally Posted by mousedroid
By the way, does anyone know if the ATOs can be converted when the converters come out? I'm not a big fan of Tanks or MM, so I'd like to know whether I will be able to convert those ATOs into Scrapper, Brute or Dominator ATOs later on.
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(Sometimes, I wish there could be a Dev thumbs up button for quality posts, because you pretty much nailed it.) -- Ghost Falcon
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I'm taking Zwillinger at his word:|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That's one way to look at it, but that's not the only possible explanation for their motives. One strong refutation of this cause and effect theory of the super pack's contents is that the super packs were previewed back in May of 2011 during the focus group associated with City of Heroes Freedom, and consumables were already slated for them. So its not possible that Paragon could have followed the line of thinking you're ascribing to them. Given that you believe this to be the most likely logical scenario, and it doesn't appear to be possible, in what way does that revise your thinking?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
In order for a Hybrid business model to be sustainable you need to have a consistent flow of income. Now this is largely represented by converting free or premium players to a monthly subscription, which we are doing quite well. But by opening the proverbial floodgates to anyone and everyone with an internet connection and a PC that can handle it (which is a lot of folks these days) we've also incurred a large amount of additional operational cost that we didn't have when only supporting limited free trials and our loyal subscribers. Don't get me wrong, the benefits of having a free option are huge, both for your business and, more importantly, for your Community, but they do not come without a cost.
Parts of this additional operational cost can be offset by the release of items like Power Sets or Costume bundles or other similar marquee items. These are great and exciting items for us to make and for the Community to anticipate, but they're a one time investment and as such only serve as a short injection of resources. To keep up with these additional costs in the long run we have to introduce sustainable consumable items. Here lies the challenge with City of Heroes... When we've told you that we're going to be testing the waters with many different offerings, including things like Rare IO's, Dual Inspirations, Enhancement Unslotters, etc, etc there is a reason for this. City of Heroes is not an easy game to devise consumable items for. Because we've made things like Inspirations drop like...well...candy, because there's such a negligible death penalty, because everyone has easy access to travel powers...the list goes on. Things that work well for other games (like a Rez power or traditional "potions") will not work for us. Our challenge is to design a consumable item that is not only affordable and fun, but also offers items that are appealing and desirable by our players. Additional reliable regular revenue enables us to make bigger, cooler awesome things like revamped zones, great new content, new Enemy Groups, new Power Sets, new Archetypes, new costume sets and more in a sustainable long term way. And it enables us to do it at the current rate of production that we've been working at (once a week releases AND supporting awesome Issue releases). Super Packs being successful means more for City of Heroes Freedom, more of everything. More content, more developers, more artists, more community team (  ), more producers and as a result, more people coming to check out all of this amazing kick *** stuff which results in more people for you to play with. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
To me, the most serious grey area thing they sell is Experienced and that is debatable as to whether it crosses the line from QoL to pay to win. But nothing else the store sells affects in-game performance quantitatively more than that. And the Super Packs are not the first instance of the devs selling experience boosters.
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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The answer is, yes, you can convert them after Issue 22 goes live.
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Originally Posted by mousedroid
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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I will be doing the same but will wait until they are live.
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Precisely, and that's why instead I bought the Gunslinger Pack for its upcoming redesigns* (thanks, Dink!) along with a medium-sized batch of points, that is, the equivalent of a 24-pack of Super Pack cards.
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I wouldn't care for that. Buying a vanity pet straight up feels worthless to me. However, if I buy a pack and get several things I will use with the chance of a vanity pet I feel more gratified. Plus if you get it you can show it off to all the people who were unfortunate enough to not get it.
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Or Paragon Studios could simply offer vanity pets along the lines of the Black Wolf at reasonable prices in the market (who knows what they'd then have to include as rare prizes in the Super Packs, though?). |
Paragonian Knights
Justice Company
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This is interesting.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
I'm taking Zwillinger at his word:
Their motives behind the packs seems clear to me... ATOs directly affect powers and auto-level with the character. They are more powerful than almost anything else in the game, and Synapse has said on today's UStream that the future packs will have newer ATOs with different/better advantages. |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Which is why I was quoting, and responding to Techbot Alpha rather than yourself.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
I have not bought a single pack.
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In any case, thank you for not doing so. Unfortunately, if the ratio of 'buying to not buying' gamewise is anything like what we're seeing in this thread, the Devs will believe - apparently correctly - that this is what the playerbase desires for future add-on sales.
I'm indifferent to the Packs themselves - personally, I prefer to know what I'm buying before I buy it, but I don't begrudge anyone else feeling differently. I do hate and loathe, however, that a beautiful costume set has been gated behind a lottery system, however lenient. So long as it is, I will not make any effort to obtain the set.
I'd be happy to buy it, if it were available. Apparently the Devs either did not forsee anyone desiring this option (hard to imagine, as often as it was expressed), or prefer to deny that option conciously.
Thus have the Devs decided to have less of my money than they could. I don't like that choice, but it's their call.
"Strength of numbers is the delight of the timid. The valiant in spirit glory in fighting alone."
- Mahatma Gandhi
Still CoHzy after all these years...
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It also seems pretty clear that it is easier to just blanket statement dismiss an idea than to give some sort of well thought out response. I happen to be a rather tall guy, nothing sails over my head. Nothing as low brow as this conversation at least...|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
I think it is pretty clear the real issues some have sailed several feet above your head mate.
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...mate.
Anything good to add instead of just random benign comments?
I, for one, say that these pieces should NOT be availble for purchase any other way. Its part of the play of the packs. If another wicked Costume Set becomes availble through this method, I will yet again buy more packs to obtain them.
Well done Devs.
And as someone else said, the sheer amount of Black Wold pets scurrying around Virtue is evidence enough that the majority are not affected by the cries of "preditory" (I think thats what it was just changed to now) It seems the masses are louder than just some voices here...
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
I'm taking Zwillinger at his word:
Their motives behind the packs seems clear to me... ATOs directly affect powers and auto-level with the character. They are more powerful than almost anything else in the game, and Synapse has said on today's UStream that the future packs will have newer ATOs with different/better advantages. |
Man makes a good point, only a complete moron(or someone that has never played this game before) would not know that consumables would be worthless in a game such as City of Heroes. Lets be honest with ourselves here the inspirations/windfalls/exp boosters/prestige boosters were not selling for crap so they thought hey if we put them in a gamble pack with a really cool costume set they have to buy them if they want the costume.
That's the only reason they wont sell us this costume pack by itself. Or everyone at Paragon studios suddenly was hit really really hard in the head with a blunt object of some sort. I guess both are possible if we live in infinity but I know the more probable one.
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To turn a profit?|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Their motives behind the packs seems clear to me...
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To pay salaries?
To keep the game afloat?
To keep the shareholders happy?
All of the above?
(Sometimes, I wish there could be a Dev thumbs up button for quality posts, because you pretty much nailed it.) -- Ghost Falcon
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Actually I called them predatory shortly after they were announced.|
Originally Posted by Bru_Tal
And as someone else said, the sheer amount of Black Wold pets scurrying around Virtue is evidence enough that the majority are not affected by the cries of "predatory" (I think thats what it was just changed to now) It seems the masses are louder than just some voices here...
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
I'll add that the Super Pack is a great way to disrespect your customer base and treat them in a predatory fashion. The only group that benefits from the random packs are the seller because it preys on the same types of addiction that gambling addicts and completionists fall victim to.
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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To extract more money beyond VIP subscribers were paying from their VIPs to pay for the freeloader's bandwidth use.
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Originally Posted by mousedroid
To turn a profit?
To pay salaries? To keep the game afloat? To keep the shareholders happy? All of the above? |
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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You can say at least 800PP with a clear conscience.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
No, I don't. The Elemental Order, by nature of the super packs, can cost 800 points or more.
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Very unlikely to get it with 10 Packs or even less.
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"Extract"? People are buying these willingly |
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
To extract more money beyond VIP subscribers were paying from their VIPs to pay for the freeloader's bandwidth use.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Interesting, I didn't expect these were a concept then. I think it is a bit shameful that they stated that Freedom would allow us to get exactly what we want (ie. give us the freedom to just get the belt from a super pack, instead of the whole thing), but these are designed to make us buy more than we might want, even if we just want a specific item.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That's one way to look at it, but that's not the only possible explanation for their motives. One strong refutation of this cause and effect theory of the super pack's contents is that the super packs were previewed back in May of 2011 during the focus group associated with City of Heroes Freedom, and consumables were already slated for them.
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Sermon
@sermon
One of Six, Cannibal 6
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They lied, aint the first time won't be the last.
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Originally Posted by Sermon
Interesting, I didn't expect these were a concept then. I think it is a bit shameful that they stated that Freedom would allow us to get exactly what we want (ie. give us the freedom to just get the belt from a super pack, instead of the whole thing), but these are designed to make us buy more than we might want, even if we just want a specific item.
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I just think that it shouldn't cost more then $15 for a costume set. And I've bought the 24 pack for over that and only received 4 of the 11 items. I gave it a chance, but as this is obviously based on "luck" other players will obviously have a better advantage if the dice roll in their favor. I like buying things that are absolute when it comes to data items. If it is a real life item that I can touch and resell it is of much more value and use to me. I hate gambling or going on an uncertainty, and this is indeed a gamble. If this develops without change as I predict, then things will get much worse. If ever, two of these packs come out in a month plus costumes, I'm out.
I work 2 part-time jobs because it's all that is available right now, that's with college education. And I get minimum wage. I live on my own and I use 50% of the money left over after bills and food on this, that's $30. The economy simply doesn't have the money to support such a system, nor is it morally correct. Having people get into gambling is not a good idea, but if you're a casino... I guess that's what CoH is becoming.
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Positron forced me to buy them at gunpoint!|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
"Extract"? People are buying these willingly
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Legal Disclaimer: This did not actually happen.
_________
@Inquisitor
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Did they twirl their moustaches at the same time?
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Originally Posted by Lucky666
They lied
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Wow. Are you sure? Not even by the worst estimations should that happen.|
Originally Posted by Astra
I just think that it shouldn't cost more then $15 for a costume set. And I've bought the 24 pack for over that and only received 4 of the 11 items.
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This is why they should guarantee all of the costume pieces if you get something like a 12 pack or more.
Sermon
@sermon
One of Six, Cannibal 6
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None of that contradicts the fact that your narrative is impossible on its face. In fact, most of that are things that came up in conversations with Zwillinger face to face, and more importantly many of those things are things that were discussed as foundational elements of the Freedom hybrid model within days of its announcement.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
I'm taking Zwillinger at his word:
Their motives behind the packs seems clear to me... |
Their motivations to make the Super Packs is obvious: its in effect a consumable that contains lots of different things to ensure there is likely something for everyone, or at least the widest possible group of people. Its also obviously true that they thought that up *before* they had any idea whether people would independently buy things like team inspirations because they were a part of the Super Pack concept from the start. This means your narrative of the devs deciding to add those small consumables into the Superpacks to allow them to effectively charge more for the costume elements within them cannot be true because it defies the timeline of design.
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I often wish statements like this were subject to estoppel upon direct evidence to the contrary. Mores the pity the world doesn't work like that in general.
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Originally Posted by Lucky666
They lied, aint the first time won't be the last.
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At no time did the devs say that the idea behind City of Heroes Freedom was to design the game so that every option that existed would be available by whatever means the players wanted, and moreover before the store launched this exact sentiment was repeatedly refuted. Explicitly by me, but not only by me.|
Originally Posted by Sermon
Interesting, I didn't expect these were a concept then. I think it is a bit shameful that they stated that Freedom would allow us to get exactly what we want (ie. give us the freedom to just get the belt from a super pack, instead of the whole thing), but these are designed to make us buy more than we might want, even if we just want a specific item.
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Very specifically, the devs never said anything about eliminating the concept of bundling completely, and I was watching extremely carefully and would have called them on it if they ever said that in a thread I was reading.
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If they believed the value of the consumables matched the players, then the consumables would be set at a more appropriate price instead of trying to bribe players to use them by including them in these packs. So while they believe a specific consumable is worth X, the demand hasn't matched that value. So they are trying to bribe players into buying the consumables by offering items that players do want.
To me, the most serious grey area thing they sell is Experienced and that is debatable as to whether it crosses the line from QoL to pay to win. But nothing else the store sells affects in-game performance quantitatively more than that. And the Super Packs are not the first instance of the devs selling experience boosters.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)