Updates on the way: Steampunk, Gunslinger and Magic Packs!
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-02-13 16:44 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Need i say more
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Fair enough, and I see where you are coming from. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Perhaps this is one of those times when being wordy diluted the sentiment. I've never been opposed to respectful discussion under any circumstances. That's always a good thing. However, just plain sh-tting on the effort is something else, which perhaps more directly addresses the point in a less ambiguous manner. I was specifically reacting to an earlier post that was not a discussion post, just an expression of blanket disappointment:
Everyone is free to express their disappointment in whatever venue they wish, but that right comes bundled with my right to express my own opinion of its appropriateness. Intelligent discussion is a separate matter. |
I will warn that I was modded today in this thread (second time in 7 years) for "attempting to bypass the filter." Just a heads up. :/
As I said before, my intention was not to poop on what Dink did. This just happened to be a good place to make a stand. Dink, I am sorry of I have hurt you feelings in any way.
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In my mind it is, and no one has said anything that's come close to changing that.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
It's not about numbers.
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Quality/content and numbers are two different arguments, and I actually side with the people who were dissatisfied with the content previously. But the sheer number of people who are telling me that girls deserve more costume options than men is mindboggling and, frankly, insulting.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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Mm, Baron jacket for females.
The Skull Mask still is male and huge only, though, isn't it? Hope that one gets gender equalitied, too.
Well, if there is any time and willing in the future....
I´d be really thankful if the Plasma Sword from the Titan Weapons would get a port to Broad sword.
And GZ to the people who wanted that stuff for so long.
While i do create some female costumes from time to time i don´t use a single one on any of my chars.
Real quick notes...
1) I remember an upcoming costume pack being held up as a promise that female avatars finally have a decent jacket option on the way. When I heard how that pack was being made available, this issue was the one thing that made me annoyed. So when I came here looking to see what people were saying about it and found this thread, I thought "Oh, I see what you did, making good on the jackets options another way. Good Show!" If this wasn't specifically why you found the time, Dink, then it's a happy side effect.
2) I really understand why there is annoyance at female avatars now having numerically more options than standard-male avatars in those packs (not counting the Male and Huge as two options for men because usually it's one of the other). However, the issue was that female characters who didn't want to have to run around in corsets and flesh didn't have much by way of options to begin with. Now we do. It's not just a raw costume part count issue to me, it's "True Options". For what little that opinion's worth. 
3) People have been really, really good in this thread, accounting for "the usual suspects"! Good show to y'all, too!
(PS - To clarify #2, I know some people were saying "Give me corsets for females and non-corsets for both males and females", but that wasn't me or even most people from what I saw. It's more an issue of "Some big population wants corsets & flesh for females, and some big population wants non-corsets and flesh for females, and some big population wants non-corsets and flesh for males." So this is prolly the broadest marketable solution that doesn't force a big population to choose between participation and having to wear what they don't want. Personally, I'd love to see corsets and flesh for males, but I accept I'm not in the majority...)
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Thank you! This gives me a reason to invest some money in the gunslinger pack now.
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If you took away things like skirts and high heels I would be very angry. Arcanaville addressed this already, but not doing any more gender-specific items just changes the complaints.
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Originally Posted by Zyphoid
All of this could be solved by porting the gender neutral items from female to male, and not releasing ANY more gender exclusive costume packs, be they male or female.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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But why would the reptilian shapeshifters need do that when they've already shown that they can travel back in time to kill Kennedy to keep the moon landing hoax a secret? Surely they could just travel further back in time and alter society so there was never any male bias in the first place?
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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
A lot of it is due to liberal brain washing of the masses.
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@Golden Girl
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I think that is overstating your case a little. Every "costume equality" thread I have ever participated in has included long hair, dragon bracers, padded gloves, buttcapes et al along with everything we wanted ported the other way. Perhaps you should view this as a step in the right direction, since it will show that porting unisex pieces between models is a worthwhile action. It certainly gave me renewed hope for a few male ports.
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Originally Posted by Zyphoid
I really don't care if the female models get unique parts, and the male parts. What bothers me is that I read males are never going to get unique parts again. What bothers me is that it is ok to complain about gender equality when females are the underdog, but as soon as males say something they are shouted down
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This.|
Originally Posted by Agent White
Because girls -certainly- wouldn't wear -that-.
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The problem with the "equal but different" idea is that because there is essentially no male article of clothing that's socially inappropriate for women these days (and much of the rest - say, uniforms for male-only positions - is covered by the fact that it's a science-fantasy game where superpowers mean your gender is irrelevant to your physical ability), so female characters will always be getting stiffed on unisex pieces in favour of "female exclusive" stuff. Thus, an environment is created where women are pushed toward girly looks, which does not sit well with those of us who don't care for traditional gender roles in our costuming.
The reverse, however, is not true - women get to wear piles of stuff that's still considered socially inappropriate for men. Is that fair? No, but it's a problem in the actual world, and an MMO isn't the place to combat that. In reality there is extremely minimal community demand for MtF crossdressing, so the fairest thing the devs can do is just let unisex items be unisex.
If you want extra facial hair or maybe a hairy scotsman chest or whatever, you're welcome to it and I won't complain. But when female characters are given a "distaff counterpart" instead of a unisex piece, it's reasonable for people to feel this is unfair to female characters.
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Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
My argument has nothing to do with content at all. Pretend the badass gunslinger bits are M&Ms and the saloon girl stuff is jelly beans if that makes it easier for you. I don't see why males get a pile of M&Ms, but females get an equivalent amount of jelly beans plus a similar amount of M&Ms.
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The problem with your argument is that it can't be separated from content. To make your simile apply, it would have to be a fact that generally guys don't want jellybeans anyway, while women generally enjoy jellybeans and M&Ms generally equally, and restricting them to jellybeans kind of has unfortunate social implications.
Asking for unisex pieces to be unisex (including if thery are currently female-exclusive - I'm no more happy than you are, that my guys can't use Carnie head details or sashes) is reasonable. Admirable even. But forcing numerical equality into this equation, when it is actually about who wants and would/wouldn't use piece A or piece B, is a waste of time.
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Originally Posted by Sooner
I think any piece that could be worn reasonably by males should be available to males and any piece that could be worn reasonably by females should be available to females.
And I just can't even wrap my brain around why you'd restrict a piece to one sex or the other for no other reason than to restrict it. |
Also, Dink is still awesome <3
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I was modded for posting a picture of a nazi stegasaurus tank and for making fun of Kim Jong-Il. Its the least I can do to do my part to help the economy by keeping the customer service industry fully staffed.
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Originally Posted by Zyphoid
I will warn that I was modded today in this thread (second time in 7 years) for "attempting to bypass the filter." Just a heads up. :/
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Then do what I do and put her on ignore and kindly stop quoting her since that defeats the entire point of ignore, you feth wit!
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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
In the politest possible words, **** right off GG, I have neither patience or will to listen to your tedious **** wittery anymore.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Dangit, I forgot my one, non-tiny-minority request for male avatars that would go a huge way toward good will vs the investment required -
Widow capes for male avatars already, please! It was an extremely unfortunate oversight when hipcapes were finally released for player ues. This has to be infinitely easier and less time-consuming than retooling entire jackets.
PS ~ Pretty pretty please with baby giggles on it?
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Good idea, advice taken.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Then do what I do and put her on ignore and kindly stop quoting her since that defeats the entire point of ignore, you feth wit!
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Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Well said. My GFs wardrobe is three times the size of mine.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Not with things like armor sets or uniforms.
But more so with street clothes and historical clothes, then yes. Women get numerically more. Because woman usually wear more. Women layer more. Women have more diverse styles. Men just don't (usually) wear all the extra stuff women wear: shawls, belly shirts, corsets, skirts, etc... Take skirts,e.g. Men have kilts. Women have dozens of styles of skirts. But they both get battle skirts (e.g., Valkyrie or Roman). What rankles me is that men don't have shorts. But when men do get shorts, there's no need for a dozen styles. The comedian Elaine Boozler tells this joke in her stage act about how men and women differ and to show how they differ, she claims men won't even get this joke: "I was shopping with my boyfriend and I said I needed a new pair of black pants. And he said you already have a pair of black pants." The women in the audience laughed because they got the joke. If you don't get the joke, then you should back out this debate, because you just don't get how differently women actually use clothing in reality. Just compare the average woman's closet to a man's closet. Woman have more costuming needs. And that's a fact. Thus, forcing an equality based on simple numerical equity is just wrong. And this is me making this argument who was spearheading the gender bias charge for years here. It's not about numbers. |
I'm happy to say she's got quite a few corsets, too
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Define "reasonable."|
Originally Posted by Sooner
I agree. Anything that COULD be reasonably used by both should be available to both.
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I only ask because it seems to be a fluid thing:
Why the random costume button is the one thing in this game I hope future science never invents
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If I had been drinking a Coke it would be all over my screen... Well played!
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Originally Posted by Scythus
Well then, stop being such a sausage factory and roll some female alts.
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I was being whinny when I posted the quoted text. What you have said here makes great sense to me though!
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Originally Posted by FoxLee
I think that is overstating your case a little. Every "costume equality" thread I have ever participated in has included long hair, dragon bracers, padded gloves, buttcapes et al along with everything we wanted ported the other way. Perhaps you should view this as a step in the right direction, since it will show that porting unisex pieces between models is a worthwhile action. It certainly gave me renewed hope for a few male ports.
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You know, this is exactly what I was trying to avoid, really, I was, but ...|
Originally Posted by Xzero45
I really didn't see many people, if anyone at all, clamoring for a male version of that Metallic dress women got.
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I DID ask for a version of the Metallic dress. A piece of it, anyway. In the feedback threads on the set, I requested an alteration of the top to make a metallic Tank Top for guys. The guys have nothing like it. Do I want the dress? No. Do I think, in general, male toons should be wearing dresses and corsets? Not really, no - so long as we're not counting wizard robes and long jackets, etc., as dresses. But do I think a VERSION of the metallic dress for males in the form of either a metallic top and/or metallic pants is reasonable to ask for? Yeah, yeah I do.
Zwill has said that this new policy has come about as a result of coversations with the community. Well, I was there posting in those conversations, and really, I became very, very disheartened by what I was hearing from Devs because it was obvious early on that male toons were going to get the short shrift. There were several of us arguing for Male versions of female parts, and it was like certain Devs were shoving their fingers in the virtual ears and going "Nyah nyah nyah nyah, we can't hear you." To them, it seems, the Gender disparity thing is only a male to female problem, not vice versa.
So thank you, guys, for confirming that my opinions and desires don't count because I am only one of what you see as a handful of people clamoring for this stuff.
XXX
This again is NO REFLECTION on Dink and what she has done. It is amazing and she has done a wonderful service to the community. As I said before, I tried to stay positive and keep my platform to myself so as not to appear ungrateful. But certain comments just can't help but pull me back into the fray.
In general we have a great team of Devs who give us wonderful stuff to play with time in and time out, but this one issue just seems to be something that there's no happy medium.
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Seeing something like this makes me nauseous. What sicko thought it was a good idea to put orange and fuchsia next to each other?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
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The Devs hate dinosaurs.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I was modded for posting a picture of a nazi stegasaurus tank and for making fun of Kim Jong-Il. Its the least I can do to do my part to help the economy by keeping the customer service industry fully staffed.
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Incidentally, we could probably ALREADY make that, or something similar to it, in the costume creator with the battle kilt and one of the blazers ... but the orange and fuschia ARE really hideous together ... |
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Seeing something like this makes me sick. What sicko thought it was a good idea to put orange and fuchsia next to each other?
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I know what you expressed in the other threads, I agreed then also. Not choosing a side would have been the right thing to do, it however did not happen that way. Bad or good, those who did not like it have the right to take every opportunity to express that dislike as long as it is not done in an offensive manner.
You can weight it however you like, but at least now the devs know that there are customers who reasonably do not like the direction they are taking.
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