Updates on the way: Steampunk, Gunslinger and Magic Packs!
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-02-13 16:44 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I really don't understand why anyone would complain about this...
...but...
Question for the complainers:
Do you really want pieces that female characters could reasonably used restricted to male characters only for no other reason than to give male characters options that females don't have? I mean...
I think any piece that could be worn reasonably by males should be available to males and any piece that could be worn reasonably by females should be available to females.
In other words, that baron jacket is going to look great on a female character, but the bare chest option is clearly not appropriate. However, the bustier is not appropriate in a teen rated game for male.
So, yes, there are some female pieces that should be available to males - the clock belt, for instance.
I think the current plan the devs are working on for costumes is dead on.
And I just can't even wrap my brain around why you'd restrict a piece to one sex or the other for no other reason than to restrict it.
ZOMG! sooo many posts 
I'm happy that most are happy with this! in a perfect world I would give everybody what they want but until then I will do my best to make most happy 
Now, I have some pm's I must address 
Oh and thanks all for the ever so nice welcome, I feel so warm and fuzzy inside
To begin with, I do want to thank the devs for listening to us and creating these pieces for the women. I think it's high time they have options that are more badass, less badgirl. Thank you Dink for doing a lot of hard work to unisex these pieces! I appreciate do the work.
However, I tend to play primarily guys. That's just my thing. Someone has to give them love so why not us girls? 
The guys are playing all the women characters! So some of the posters telling those of us who do play males to not speak up for the male lack and just make females or turn our boys into girls just makes me ruffle a a little. Heehee. Anyways, I digress.
So yes, I am in agreement with the others on things that could unisex the other ways. I have a lot of sadness that the women models get their cake and eat it too while the guys get... what everyone gets. Why not unisex the other way, too?
The women have so many exclusive pieces that people think can't port over because they're applying gender roles to them, like the Carnies masks. Fair enough, I won't go into the whole Kabuki or that there may be more effeminate males who MIGHT wear them, whatever. However, there's many pieces in the women's side that SHOULD be ported, and aren't or at the very least should have some equivilant for the men.
*Blindfolds without chains/barbed wire (seriously? Why? I have a character that should wear a blindfold and all he gets is bondage-chains when the women get a nice piece of cloth)(Strike this one My memory is apparently off!)
*long, non-anime hair (like a heavy metal guy!)
*Long pony tails of some sort that don't look like they were slicked down with motor oil?
*Thigh high boots. C'mon! Pirates wear em! Other MMORPGs of heroic nature have em! Why not OUR men? A male equivilant to the Carnie boots would fit this bill. (Same upper, different, more masculine feet, perhaps?)
*Carnival sashes (please? Once again Pirate looks? Kheldians?)
As for the Carnival of Shadows. Okay yes, male Carnies get helmets/buckets. However, what about the Carnival of Light. The men have the Legacy chain pieces. Why not give the men more masculine equivilant masks. Just because the NPCS don't have them doesn't mean WE don't want them. My male Carnie of Light WOULD wear a mask but currently just uses the Jester mask.
At any rate, in closing. Thank you for the hard work, all that blabbing aside. I do appreciate it. But I will say there's a reason many of us do hope for a little love the other way, too.
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Originally Posted by Sooner
Do you really want pieces that female characters could reasonably used restricted to male characters only for no other reason than to give male characters options that females don't have?
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When I step back from the situations....
No I really don't. I just want it to work both ways. I just want to see the characters I like to play continue to get an equal amount of costume options, and for things that can be ported from female to male to be done so. I don't want to see anymore gender only costume packs, I don't care if it is female only, or male only.
Until the release of the Carnie pack I never had an issue with the costume development in this game. If something can be shared within the "T" rating of this game, then it should be shared.
With that, there is a lot of stuff that can go female to male and not break the game rating. It bothers me that I have no confidence that that will happen though.
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Quote:
This a steady stream of praise for taking the extra time with these long-requested costume pieces is the least we can do. The most is, of course, buying the Steampunk, Gunslinger and Magic Packs now that they're more complete. (Sorry this thread rekindled the idiosyncratic column a vs. column b debate, but if it were that simple, it could have been settled by Paragon Studios' accountants long ago.) Thanks again for your special efforts, and we look forward to them going live with Issue 22.
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Originally Posted by Dink
ZOMG! sooo many posts
I'm happy that most are happy with this! in a perfect world I would give everybody what they want but until then I will do my best to make most happy Now, I have some pm's I must address Oh and thanks all for the ever so nice welcome |
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You really did a great job, and deserve all the praise that you are getting. I really want everyone to know that my issue is not with you, or that you did this. My issue is with what I feel is an unfair direction costume development is taking.
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Originally Posted by Dink
ZOMG! sooo many posts
I'm happy that most are happy with this! in a perfect world I would give everybody what they want but until then I will do my best to make most happy Now, I have some pm's I must address Oh and thanks all for the ever so nice welcome, I feel so warm and fuzzy inside |
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Serious thumbs up on this, Dink.
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Quote:
If they do think you or anyone else is blaming or complaining about Dink, the fault is with them; disagreement is an opportunity to offer ridicule instead of polite discussion on these forums. The responses to the concerns here and piecemeal quote twisting is proof of that. But this is just an opportunity to address something that was becoming apparent. |
Originally Posted by Zyphoid
You really did a great job, and deserve all the praise that you are getting. I really want everyone to know that my issue is not with you, or that you did this. My issue is with what I feel is an unfair direction costume development is taking.
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I'm thankful for Zwillinger's honest relation of the costume department's decision. It does seem atrocious that, now that the shoe is on the other foot, chatters aren't nearly as respectful to those with a problem with the design team being the other extreme, but that's to be expected. If it leads to a significant increase in revenue for Paragon, so be it.
It's too soon to see if this costume policy will affect things in a drastic way. Dink's amazing use of her free time towards the community isn't anything more or less than seeing a need and filling it. The proof of the design plan will be in the Retro Sci-fi and future packs, with possibly the Imperial Dynasty if it was made under the new policy. Given the additional parts in the Dynasty sets such as Female Only Crowns, Female Only Plate Legs, and a new Face, I'd suggest that the Imperial Dynasty armor will be the first example we can hold up to examine.
On the whole, we're fortunate that there's only a few noteworthy, obviously unisex pieces that should be ported from females to males at this point. My concern is that this policy will lead to much more. We'll see.
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Females get just a cloth? Last I recall they were stuck with a chain or barbed wire as well.|
Originally Posted by SnowJackal
To begin with, I do want to thank the devs for listening to us and creating these pieces for the women. I think it's high time they have options that are more badass, less badgirl. Thank you Dink for doing a lot of hard work to unisex these pieces! I appreciate do the work.
However, I tend to play primarily guys. That's just my thing. Someone has to give them love so why not us girls? The guys are playing all the women characters! So some of the posters telling those of us who do play males to not speak up for the male lack and just make females or turn our boys into girls just makes me ruffle a a little. Heehee. Anyways, I digress.So yes, I am in agreement with the others on things that could unisex the other ways. I have a lot of sadness that the women models get their cake and eat it too while the guys get... what everyone gets. Why not unisex the other way, too? The women have so many exclusive pieces that people think can't port over because they're applying gender roles to them, like the Carnies masks. Fair enough, I won't go into the whole Kabuki or that there may be more effeminate males who MIGHT wear them, whatever. However, there's many pieces in the women's side that SHOULD be ported, and aren't or at the very least should have some equivilant for the men. *Blindfolds without chains/barbed wire (seriously? Why? I have a character that should wear a blindfold and all he gets is bondage-chains when the women get a nice piece of cloth) *long, non-anime hair (like a heavy metal guy!) *Long pony tails of some sort that don't look like they were slicked down with motor oil? *Thigh high boots. C'mon! Pirates wear em! Other MMORPGs of heroic nature have em! Why not OUR men? A male equivilant to the Carnie boots would fit this bill. (Same upper, different, more masculine feet, perhaps?) *Carnival sashes (please? Once again Pirate looks? Kheldians?) As for the Carnival of Shadows. Okay yes, male Carnies get helmets/buckets. However, what about the Carnival of Light. The men have the Legacy chain pieces. Why not give the men more masculine equivilant masks. Just because the NPCS don't have them doesn't mean WE don't want them. My male Carnie of Light WOULD wear a mask but currently just uses the Jester mask. At any rate, in closing. Thank you for the hard work, all that blabbing aside. I do appreciate it. But I will say there's a reason many of us do hope for a little love the other way, too. |
As for the Carnie masks, I agree, give them to the males. However, they explained it what they did, they just ported over the pieces from the female NPC avatars to the female PC avatars.
Porting them to males would have been even more work.
What can be hoped for though is that something like this happens for the Carnie Masks and Sash.
Wouldn't mind a plain white mask you could put face decals on either. Personally, I don't see the hype over the face masks as they are, limits concepts alot imo.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
*would give away that terrible face if possible*
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Originally Posted by Paladin
If they do think you or anyone else is blaming or complaining about Dink, the fault is with them; disagreement is an opportunity to offer ridicule instead of polite discussion on these forums. The responses to the concerns here and piecemeal quote twisting is proof of that. But this is just an opportunity to address something that was becoming apparent.
I'm thankful for Zwillinger's honest relation of the costume department's decision. It does seem atrocious that, now that the shoe is on the other foot, chatters aren't nearly as respectful to those with a problem with the design team being the other extreme, but that's to be expected. If it leads to a significant increase in revenue for Paragon, so be it. It's too soon to see if this costume policy will affect things in a drastic way. Dink's amazing use of her free time towards the community isn't anything more or less than seeing a need and filling it. The proof of the design plan will be in the Retro Sci-fi and future packs, with possibly the Imperial Dynasty if it was made under the new policy. Given the additional parts in the Dynasty sets such as Female Only Crowns, Female Only Plate Legs, and a new Face, I'd suggest it the Imperial Dynasty armor will be the first example we can hold up to examine. On the whole, we're fortunate that there's only a few noteworthy, obviously unisex pieces that should be ported from females to males at this point. My concern is that this policy will lead to much more. We'll see. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I can only speak for myself, but my interest is in the beautiful, unique halos and head-dresses that the Carnival of Light have. Those seem like they could fit a man as well as a woman - and it's just as gaudy as the Ascension Radiance set.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Personally, I don't see the hype over the face masks as they are, limits concepts alot imo.
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Just another thing to add on the "To-Do Someday" list.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by BrandX
*would give away that terrible face if possible*
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The Paladin
Steel Canyon, Virtue
Exalted
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Quote:
Ah! I thought they did have a plain blindfold. I swore I saw it. I admit I don't play women as much and my memory is a little dodgey sometimes. Then yes, they both need it.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Females get just a cloth? Last I recall they were stuck with a chain or barbed wire as well.
As for the Carnie masks, I agree, give them to the males. However, they explained it what they did, they just ported over the pieces from the female NPC avatars to the female PC avatars. Porting them to males would have been even more work. What can be hoped for though is that something like this happens for the Carnie Masks and Sash. Wouldn't mind a plain white mask you could put face decals on either. Personally, I don't see the hype over the face masks as they are, limits concepts alot imo. |
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I also would like the head dresses, halos for the men, too. They'd pair up nicely with all the Ascension pieces.
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Originally Posted by Paladin
I can only speak for myself, but my interest is in the beautiful, unique halos and head-dresses that the Carnival of Light have. Those seem like they could fit a man as well as a woman - and it's just as gaudy as the Ascension Radiance set.
Just another thing to add on the "To-Do Someday" list. *laughs* I suppose I shouldn't have mentioned that face - It is a little Derpy, isn't it? |
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But the Carnie sash is a Kheldian sash, just slightly more high definition. I've compared the two before, and they, in fact, are the same belt.
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Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
Personally, I think they should correct one BIG annoyance and give all three models a proper Kheldian sash rather than making us use the Carnie one which barely suffices.
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They could. I just don't get upset to bent out of shape over it, when I understand the reasoning.|
Originally Posted by Paladin
I can only speak for myself, but my interest is in the beautiful, unique halos and head-dresses that the Carnival of Light have. Those seem like they could fit a man as well as a woman - and it's just as gaudy as the Ascension Radiance set.
Just another thing to add on the "To-Do Someday" list. *laughs* I suppose I shouldn't have mentioned that face - It is a little Derpy, isn't it? |
Those halos might see some real use. Sadly they were never setup for male avatars, so werent part of the set.
I also realize from the company's PoV, female pieces just sell better and I think that has a lot to do with people and their mind sets.
"What? No. I'd never put a guy in that!"
Of course there's a few who would, but they're in the minority, so it comes down to if it's worth their time to make the pieces that people would never use.
Yes ont he forums we've heard "I want to put my male in a dress" but I've heard more people in game say "I'd never put a male in a dress"
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
One thing that some people might be forgetting is that the design philosophy that Zwill explained earlier is really only going to be true for the Retro Sci Fi pack and any subsequent ones - everything that comes out before then will have had at least SOME of the choices made under the "old" philosophy of giving phenotype-specific pieces any which way - including the gender-specific Carnie pack.
I would caution some restraint on expressing extremes of concern until the first few packs under the new philosophy have released, since we won't really see the impact until then.
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; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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It'll change the problem to one that other people will be complaining about.|
Originally Posted by Zyphoid
To what? I mean I agree with what you are saying, but I don't think I would have much problem after that, with costumes any way. Shoot, very little in this game ever annoys me. Costume disparity, and scrappers not getting Ninjitsu are all I can even think of currently.
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I mentioned this several times in the other threads discussing this issue, but the fact of the matter is there are large non-trivial contingents of players that want conflicting things that are somewhat mutually exclusive, particularly when factoring in finite-resources. Some players have for *years* asked for more, for lack of a better word, feminine but not overtly sexual costume options. The exact phrase was often "are there any actual women working at Paragon Studios?" In effect, they are asking for a more representative sample of costume options that mimic clothing or fashion options generally considered only suitable for women. In fact, generic versions that were gender neutral would probably violate the request for many of those people.
Then there are players that want all costume parts for all body types regardless of any perceived gender connection or preference. Not all these players want this because of a perception of quantitative fairness: some genuinely do not want the game to reflect *any* gender bias in clothing options at all on principle. And then there are the players that want numerically similar numbers of costume options for the two primary body types even if that numerical similarity comes at the cost of funnelling options, specifically because they are more concerned about resource fairness than costume option breadth.
You're not going to fully address everyone's preferences here, because its not just about preference its about priority. People want to believe their preferences have priority. They'll often say the converse: they don't want their preferences to have lesser priority than anyone elses. But given absolute equality isn't possible here, that's tantamount to saying the same thing.
Personally, and I expressed this thought several times although I don't think anyone was really listening, I think the devs should not have picked a side as they did. They should have said that no one's preferences would ever take priority, but each would be addressed at least in part sometimes. There would be costume packs/bundles that were unisex, some would specifically address the feminine option gap, some would be dedicated to porting gender-exclusive options that were gender neutral, etc. Your preference might come up 12% of the time while someone else's comes up 18% of the time, but everyone would have *some* avenue to hope that an option they want would be added eventually. The only people out of luck would be the people who didn't just want a shot, but wanted priority.
If we have to lose someone, I would prefer it be the player that says they must have things their way, or they quit. I would rather keep the rest.
None of this has anything to do with my reaction when a dev spends their free time between landmarks trying to untangle our irrational jumble of wish lists and decides to try to give us something they think at least some of the players would appreciate. Anyone thinking that that moment is the perfect moment to address the fact that the options being provided highlight a perceived injustice in the game has in my opinion chosen extremely unwisely and I plan to give the assertion a weight as far below zero as I can muster.
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Nicely said.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
None of this has anything to do with my reaction when a dev spends their free time between landmarks trying to untangle our irrational jumble of wish lists and decides to try to give us something they think at least some of the players would appreciate. Anyone thinking that that moment is the perfect moment to address the fact that the options being provided highlight a perceived injustice in the game has in my opinion chosen extremely unwisely and I plan to give the assertion a weight as far below zero as I can muster.
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
I agree. Anything that COULD be reasonably used by both should be available to both.
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Originally Posted by Zyphoid
When I step back from the situations....
No I really don't. I just want it to work both ways. I just want to see the characters I like to play continue to get an equal amount of costume options, and for things that can be ported from female to male to be done so. I don't want to see anymore gender only costume packs, I don't care if it is female only, or male only. Until the release of the Carnie pack I never had an issue with the costume development in this game. If something can be shared within the "T" rating of this game, then it should be shared. With that, there is a lot of stuff that can go female to male and not break the game rating. It bothers me that I have no confidence that that will happen though. |
Oh my god yay!
In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.
Eh. I'll accept what is for what it is.
On the upside, now we have a way to trim down some repeat threads in Suggestions. Threads about porting female stuff whether legacy or new to Male/Huge can now be pointed to Zwill's post to say; "Nope. Not happening. We can close this thread."
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nice, more options are always great
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
automagically
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I see what you did there
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
It'll change the problem to one that other people will be complaining about.
I mentioned this several times in the other threads discussing this issue, but the fact of the matter is there are large non-trivial contingents of players that want conflicting things that are somewhat mutually exclusive, particularly when factoring in finite-resources. Some players have for *years* asked for more, for lack of a better word, feminine but not overtly sexual costume options. The exact phrase was often "are there any actual women working at Paragon Studios?" In effect, they are asking for a more representative sample of costume options that mimic clothing or fashion options generally considered only suitable for women. In fact, generic versions that were gender neutral would probably violate the request for many of those people. Then there are players that want all costume parts for all body types regardless of any perceived gender connection or preference. Not all these players want this because of a perception of quantitative fairness: some genuinely do not want the game to reflect *any* gender bias in clothing options at all on principle. And then there are the players that want numerically similar numbers of costume options for the two primary body types even if that numerical similarity comes at the cost of funnelling options, specifically because they are more concerned about resource fairness than costume option breadth. You're not going to fully address everyone's preferences here, because its not just about preference its about priority. People want to believe their preferences have priority. They'll often say the converse: they don't want their preferences to have lesser priority than anyone elses. But given absolute equality isn't possible here, that's tantamount to saying the same thing. Personally, and I expressed this thought several times although I don't think anyone was really listening, I think the devs should not have picked a side as they did. They should have said that no one's preferences would ever take priority, but each would be addressed at least in part sometimes. There would be costume packs/bundles that were unisex, some would specifically address the feminine option gap, some would be dedicated to porting gender-exclusive options that were gender neutral, etc. Your preference might come up 12% of the time while someone else's comes up 18% of the time, but everyone would have *some* avenue to hope that an option they want would be added eventually. The only people out of luck would be the people who didn't just want a shot, but wanted priority. If we have to lose someone, I would prefer it be the player that says they must have things their way, or they quit. I would rather keep the rest. None of this has anything to do with my reaction when a dev spends their free time between landmarks trying to untangle our irrational jumble of wish lists and decides to try to give us something they think at least some of the players would appreciate. Anyone thinking that that moment is the perfect moment to address the fact that the options being provided highlight a perceived injustice in the game has in my opinion chosen extremely unwisely and I plan to give the assertion a weight as far below zero as I can muster. |
I really do think you are the most awesome person on these boards. That is the truth as I see it.
I agree with every thing you said, except for the last. As long as Dink is give credit where credit is due (and she has been) this was a good time to bring it up. A lone thread would have been ignored, here (I hate to say) the issue became so inflamed that it had to be noticed.
I know what you expressed in the other threads, I agreed then also. Not choosing a side would have been the right thing to do, it however did not happen that way. Bad or good, those who did not like it have the right to take every opportunity to express that dislike as long as it is not done in an offensive manner.
You can weight it however you like, but at least now the devs know that there are customers who reasonably do not like the direction they are taking.
Also, this would never make me quit this game.
Just spend less points.
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Now it's my turn to Quote for Truth.|
Originally Posted by Zyphoid
I agree with every thing you said, except for the last. As long as Dink is give credit where credit is due (and she has been) this was a good time to bring it up. A lone thread would have been ignored, here (I hate to say) the issue became so inflamed that it had to be noticed.
I know what you expressed in the other threads, I agreed then also. Not choosing a side would have been the right thing to do, it however did not happen that way. Bad or good, those who did not like it have the right to take every opportunity to express that dislike as long as it is not done in an offensive manner. You can weight it however you like, but at least now the devs know that there are customers who reasonably do not like the direction they are taking. Also, this would never make me quit this game. Just spend less points. |
As far as I'm concerned, the turn this thread took didn't take away from the amazing work Dink performed. The charity and kindness showed to the community speaks for itself, and is more important than to be washed away by a secondary conversation in the thread - no matter how heated it may have gotten. If anything, on top of the praiseworthy actions of Dink my appreciation and respect for Zwillinger has increased thanks to his straightforward expression of the coming policy.
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