CoH: a game for Introverts, too


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Originally Posted by TonyV View Post
Because "wanting to have fun" is being defined as "entertained 100% of the time, never ever ever having to spend a few minutes doing something I don't want to."

It's like that spoiled rich kid--you know the one--the brat whose parents spend a fortune on their birthday party, paying for clowns, magicians, inflatable "moon walk" playhouses, and a thousand dollars on gifts, with the kid constantly complaining. "Gross! This sandwich has a pickle on it! I'M NOT EATING IT!!! I wanted the widescreen COLLECTOR'S edition, not this crap! I've seen that trick before, and it's more stupid now than it was then! Waaaaah!!!"

If you're not having fun, the stop paying for the game, duh. Of course, I don't believe for a second that's actually the case. I think its much more likely that the whiners (of whom I'm not necessarily saying the OP is one) are 97% happy, but like the spoiled rich kid, all they can dwell on is that other 3%.

Hope that clears it up.
How you read the OP and how the OP actually reads to a sane person are two completely different beasts. The OP never ever demanded anything of the sort - didn't even HINT at it, you've blown it way out of proportion because you're so cheesed off at the idea. And now you're just bringing straw men into it. Tony, you're better than that.


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The typical introvert mocking is basically impossible on the internet. Not only are forums static environments not much like clubs at all, if you just observe and don't interact...No one notices. It would take absurd amounts of stalking to know that someone has been watching a thread but not posting to it.

Back on topic, you guys remember that post I made about Guild Wars? Yeah, Guild Wars has fully one hundred percent of its PvE content equally available to both soloists and groupers. CoX could do the same thing and it would probably be trivial (it would definitely be trivial if they had planned to do so from the start, but legacy code might cause some issues at this stage). Seriously, just make everything that currently has to be teamed work like regular missions: The street sweeping portions are trivial anyway and the meat of the content in both story and mechanics comes in instances, which scale their opposition to however many players are in the instance.

Incidentally, this isn't how Guild Wars makes its content 100% available to soloists and groupers, but the specifics of execution are actually pretty trivial. What matters is the end result: Everyone gets the gameplay they want, all the time, with all the content, even if the kind of gameplay they want changes with their mood (I know there's times when I want to team and times when I don't, and also times when I want to team but don't have the time to put an 8-man group together).


 

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I'm introverted as well. I do like teaming and find the constant action to be stimulating and fun. It is also draining, and depending on the people I can end up feeling pretty badly burnt out - this is one of the reasons I tend to take breaks from this (and other) MMORPGs, and why I tend to stay in hide when I start playing again.

It's good to have solo options for doing stuff without having to grab three or more people to help you out.


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I'm not really introverted, just more of a loner type, IRL and in-game.

Other than that fact, I've always viewed the game as being played 1 of 2 ways.

Way #1.
I solo, running missions and fleshing out my characters concept/storyline. Soloing gives me the entire immersion factor, allowing me to go at my pace, read all the lore etc. Levels pass by slower so I get a much better feel for my characters abilities and in general, feel more like a part of the gameworld as far as my actions go.

Way #2.
I team, doing whatever the team just happens to want to do. I enjoy teaming because of the social aspect, getting to see/learn other powersets and concepts. The safety of numbers and drowning in mobs. Levels fly by however and I never get a chance to 'smell the roses' or really feel like part of the story. I'm just another cog in the machine.

The one thing that makes #2 harder for me than most though is the fact that I play to escape reality. In reality I'm a leader all day long, all week long, having to make every choice and keep everyone on track, deciding what to do and when and I get paid to do this.
When I get home and log in, I don't want to have to keep doing the same thing I just got done doing. I prefer to just sit back and go with the flow, so I can relax after being team lead all day at work. Not wanting to form your own teams/lead doesn't have to automatically make you introverted.


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Similarly, wanting to team doesn't automatically make you extroverted.


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Originally Posted by BellaStrega View Post
Similarly, wanting to team doesn't automatically make you extroverted.
Completely off-topic, but welcome back!


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Originally Posted by TonyV View Post
Because "wanting to have fun" is being defined as "entertained 100% of the time, never ever ever having to spend a few minutes doing something I don't want to."
So, in your world, the entire endgame is "a few minutes"?

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Hope that clears it up.
Yea, it clears up that you are only interested in arguing against the most transparent strawmen imaginable. Yup - pretty clear.


 

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Originally Posted by Slaunyeh View Post
Completely off-topic, but welcome back!
Much obliged.


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Introverted does not mean shy.

Introvert means you're attuned to the inner world. Extroverts are attuned to the external world. That's all the words mean. Carl Jung coined the term eons ago to understand personality types back before the myriad of diagnostic tests we have available now.

IF introverts are shy, it can be a learned behavior (being picked on for their lesser ability to pick up on social cues, or to interpret them correctly), or their nature is ALSO shy, or various other things.

An extrovert can be shy. An introvert can be outgoing.


 

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Id just like to point out how invalid the entire argument in this thread actually is.

We have ALWAYS had viable casual/solo friendly options to persue incarnate powers.

I dont know about you but by the time we even had incarnate threads, I had so many inc shards stock piled I was able to instantly have all my level shifts when they added them on my main 50s. Doing the trials for those characters was always about the fun of testing oneself while helping out the many un shifted bodies that where taking up space. I recall no few early BAFs that did fail because most of the team just couldnt bring enough power to bare in the final phase. Or recklessly kept getting a lock down.

It really does astound me when I hear people complain about drop rates for shards which I frequently conver to threads on my casual 50s. I am no farmer, and rarely solo much above 2 or 3 man spawn sizes. I run alot of exemp mid lvl tfs for fun. All my casual characters have tier 3s and thier level shifts. All they do for materials are convert shards and run the wst if its one I enjoy.

There is no good reason you NEED to build up incarnate power faster then that but if you really want to that is what the Itrials are for. To be honest I am really sad about the changes coming to DA and wished the revamp had left it at the original lvl range just done like faultline was.

Now I could have gotten behind a shadow shard revamp for incarnates. as that zone is and always has been a place meant to test your best builds.


 

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Extroverts tend to need validation from other people, hence why they get so cheesed off when someone doesn't want to always team up since they might not want to team with them at some point.

It also seems why you can radiate every do-not-disturb cue at a party and there's always someone that has to try to drag you into the mix, because you're not interacting with them you're not validating their self-worth.

An introvert will be perfectly fine with others (not them) teaming their weaselly black guts out.


 

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Let's look at this last post:

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We have ALWAYS had viable casual/solo friendly options to persue incarnate powers.
I dont know about you but by the time we even had incarnate threads, I had so many inc shards stock piled I was able to instantly have all my level shifts when they added them on my main 50s.
I am no farmer, and rarely solo much above 2 or 3 man spawn sizes.
I run alot of exemp mid lvl tfs for fun.
But you can't understand why soloists had an issue with the shard conversion path to incarnate abilities.

Ok.


Be well, people of CoH.

 

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Originally Posted by TonyV View Post
If you're not having fun, the stop paying for the game, duh. Of course, I don't believe for a second that's actually the case. I think its much more likely that the whiners (of whom I'm not necessarily saying the OP is one)...
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis View Post
How you read the OP and how the OP actually reads to a sane person are two completely different beasts...
This wasn't a response to the OP, and I thought I made that clear. In fact, it wasn't a response to the vast majority of people in this thread. This was a response specifically to rsclark, who asked why people who want to have fun are thought of as "whiny." Most of them aren't; there's nothing wrong with wanting or even asking to change things to make your play experience better.

But every time one of these threads comes along, there is a small contingent of people--and they're the same ones every time--who insist that the game MUST cater to their play style, a solo-only play style that most people do not adopt and which is not conducive to the genre of game City of Heroes is. When people like me point out that around 90%-95% of the game is soloable and us teamers like having some content and things to do set aside for us, we're called everything but red-headed stepchildren (and sometimes worse), treated like we are the ones who are being pig-headed and inflexible.

In Tony's ideal world, a majority of the game, probably 75% or so, would be accessible to everyone with multiple ways to get rewards. This is how it is currently with things like IO recipes. You can get them via missions, via reward merits, via PvP drops, via AE tickets, via Empyrean/Astral merits, via the Wentworth's/Black Market, via tip missions/alignment merits, and some of them you can even buy outright with cash via Paragon Points. There's practically no play style that isn't supported in getting these things.

However, there would also be perks for engaging in specific play styles. There would be some rewards that are only obtainable via PvP. There would be some rewards that are only obtainable via running solo arcs. There would be some rewards that are only obtainable via task forces and/or trials. You don't have to have these rewards, no one is forcing you to do anything you want to do. However, if you're a well-rounded player, willing to participate in all aspects of the game, you will probably have a bit of an edge over players who just do one or two things all the time.

This has several advantages. For one thing, people might engage in parts of the game that they didn't think would be fun, but it turns out they are. Also, if you're a player who really enjoys aspect X of the game, there will be a lot more people who are doing X than would be if if there were just some easier way to get the same rewards than by doing X. Also, it makes things easier on the developers. How? With people engaging in a lot of different aspects of the game, it obviates or alleviates the need to put so many cooldowns or other obstacles in the game, and the ones that exist are much less apparent and painful to a well-rounded player base.

Of course, you'll still have the people who show up at things and grouse about how miserable they are and how they shouldn't have to be forced to do anything they want to when in fact, they're not forced to do anything. The thing is, though, these people will always be around. You can't develop the game around these people because you'll be chasing that wild goose forever. Some people just like being miserable.


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"When people like me point out that around 90%-95% of the game is soloable and us teamers like having some content and things to do set aside for us, we're called everything but red-headed stepchildren (and sometimes worse), treated like we are the ones who are being pig-headed and inflexible."

I dont post very often and I certainly dont like sticking my nose in these discussions but this comment baffled me. Sorrry, I dont mean to jump on you as well.

100% of the game is teamable so what do you want set aside for teamers? There is nothing in the game you cant team up for, so nothing is being withheld from "teamers".

And just for the record, I dont care about trials. I have zero interest in them. Im not mad at them and am happy there is something for people who like raiding. Im also glad that people who dont like that style of gameplay now have an option with Dark Astoria.


 

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Originally Posted by Safeguard View Post
100% of the game is teamable so what do you want set aside for teamers? There is nothing in the game you cant team up for, so nothing is being withheld from "teamers".
He's saying he wants some content to be 'team only'.
Oh, and FYI, the game is *NOT* 100% 'teamable'.


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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
The devs disagree
So does basically the entire MMO playerbase, outside of an extremely vocal minority that consistently ignores the basic concept of multiplayer gaming. The market for MMORPG's (and every other multiplayer game out there) is players that like playing with other people. It's not that hard to grasp really, folks.. Spin it however you like. Rationalize every which way possible. It doesn't change the basic core concept of the multiplayer gaming genre.


 

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Originally Posted by Demetrios Vasilikos View Post
Id just like to point out how invalid the entire argument in this thread actually is.

We have ALWAYS had viable casual/solo friendly options to persue incarnate powers
I think you need to double-check the stamp on your Portal Corp travel voucher, because that hasn't been the case for the City of Heroes game in THIS universe.


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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen View Post
So does basically the entire MMO playerbase, outside of an extremely vocal minority that consistently ignores the basic concept of multiplayer gaming. The market for MMORPG's (and every other multiplayer game out there) is players that like playing with other people. It's not that hard to grasp really, folks.. Spin it however you like. Rationalize every which way possible. It doesn't change the basic core concept of the multiplayer gaming genre.
Talking of the MMO market, I think that in the future, MMOs will move away from the current heavy focus on combat for progression - looking at things like FarmVille and Minecraft, there seems to be a potentially huge audience for games with non-combat progression - so the company that can find a way to blend that with the standard combat progression will have a massive hit.
For example, in CoH terms, that would mean a 1-50 levelling path as a D.A.T.A. scientist, or a Wentworths broker, or a reporter for the Paragon Times, or an Icon designer, or the owner of a store.
Obviously, there'd still be a lot of combat content for people who wanted it, as it's a superhero game - but it wouldn't be the only way of progressing or playing.


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I have been playing these PC games since the 80's and there is quite a bit of evolution involved in what is considered an MMORPG in 2012 that is not being considered in the discussion.

That is unfortunate in the sense that in a objective review of the history of how we got to MMORPG's 2012 one would see the validity in both the teaming and soloing arguments being bantered about. Its really not as absolute as either side is arguing. Shrug.


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Originally Posted by TonyV View Post
But every time one of these threads comes along, there is a small contingent of people--and they're the same ones every time--who insist that the game MUST cater to their play style, a solo-only play style that most people do not adopt and which is not conducive to the genre of game City of Heroes is. When people like me point out that around 90%-95% of the game is soloable and us teamers like having some content and things to do set aside for us, we're called everything but red-headed stepchildren (and sometimes worse), treated like we are the ones who are being pig-headed and inflexible.
What the heck are you blathering about? The entire game is geared towards teaming. 98% of the end-game content is ONLY team content. (And in reality the amount of time you have to invest in end-game content is more like 99.9999% team play. Only a couple little things at the Incarnate intro are soloable, and those you finish within a few minutes .)

One of the great strengths of CoH has always been that one can solo large swaths of it, which allows you to take the time to do things at your own pace and savor the game. But there is a large amount of content gated to soloers: virtually all of the end-game, every TF and SF, respec trials, Hamidon and Mothership raids... as well as other stuff I can't think of offhand because I rarely do them.

I don't see anyone demanding solo content in lieu of team content, merely the addition of solo stuff alongside the important content (Incarnates) gated behind team-only design.


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Originally Posted by Ironblade View Post
He's saying he wants some content to be 'team only'.
See my other post: huge swaths of the game -- including almost the entirety of the end-game content -- are expressly marked "teams only." You quite literally can't even get in the door to some of it without a team.

So protestations on that topic are hard to take seriously on any level.

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Oh, and FYI, the game is *NOT* 100% 'teamable'.
Aside from the character creator and the market, I can't think of any aspect of the game that can't be played with a team.

I have characters designed expressly *for* team support and they have teamed up for every bit of their journey through the game, including the (original) tutorial. In fact, one of my Defenders went for years with only two attacks: Brawl and the default one you get at creation. He can't stand up to a stiff breeze without at least one teammate.


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Originally Posted by TonyV View Post
But every time one of these threads comes along, there is a small contingent of people--and they're the same ones every time--who insist that the game MUST cater to their play style, a solo-only play style that most people do not adopt and which is not conducive to the genre of game City of Heroes is.
The game did, in fact, support this playstyle at launch, and it got even more solo-friendly as it progressed. Have to assemble a team to go knock out a baddie you can't handle? No, just abandon/autocomplete and move on. Run out of mission contacts from 38-40 so you have to street sweep (ugh) or team up with someone who still has missions left to do? No, just dial up your local police contact or have the contacts menu find your unused contacts and teleport you right to them. Have to grind out missions for specific salvage to build nice enhancements? No, just go to the market and buy them with the cash you earn by doing the things you normally do.

If the developers disagree with a solo playstyle, they've done a terrible job of discouraging it from levels 1 to 50. Fact is, if you can't survive solo, your teaming experience is going to suck. You have to be able to take care of yourself to play this game. You don't have to learn how to function in a team to play this game.

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Originally Posted by TonyV View Post
When people like me point out that around 90%-95% of the game is soloable and us teamers like having some content and things to do set aside for us, we're called everything but red-headed stepchildren (and sometimes worse), treated like we are the ones who are being pig-headed and inflexible.
You had team content set aside for you since the game launched and only got more as time went on. There are hours and hours of taskforces and strikeforces with badges, accolades (with powers), and costume parts you could only get by doing them and characters and storylines only you would get to experience. On top of those things to make you feel like you've done something special, you get XP, enhancements, inspirations, salvage, and the rewards that all of the other content offered, too. You've still got all of this team-only content in the game. If that's not enough, what else do you want?

Aside from maybe their own peace of mind from playing the game their way, soloers get what "attaboys" for doing what they do that teamers cannot earn, too? Nothing, and that's just fine. It's easy to reconcile yourself to what you will lose by not doing optional teaming content. It's when what used to be optional becomes the only reasonable means of character progression at the endgame (and a good chunk of "new" content) that people start to wonder why things had to change.

The only upside is that the game doesn't require Incarnate powers to do anything but Incarnate content. The Incarnate System is such an afterthought, I don't see how that can change. The Incarnaters will raid for the privilege of raiding more while the non-Incarnates will be sitting at the level 50 wall they've been sitting at for the last five years.

(And being told, "This is the way it always was and how it has to be," and invoking proof-less "most players do such-and-such" claims when we've all got years of our own experiences in this game to draw upon is patronizing, annoying and, yes, completely inflexible.)


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Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
Aside from the character creator and the market, I can't think of any aspect of the game that can't be played with a team.
Praetorian morality choice missions are solo only.


 

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Originally Posted by TonyV View Post

However, there would also be perks for engaging in specific play styles. There would be some rewards that are only obtainable via PvP. There would be some rewards that are only obtainable via running solo arcs. There would be some rewards that are only obtainable via task forces and/or trials. You don't have to have these rewards, no one is forcing you to do anything you want to do. However, if you're a well-rounded player, willing to participate in all aspects of the game, you will probably have a bit of an edge over players who just do one or two things all the time.

Of course, you'll still have the people who show up at things and grouse about how miserable they are and how they shouldn't have to be forced to do anything they want to when in fact, they're not forced to do anything. The thing is, though, these people will always be around. You can't develop the game around these people because you'll be chasing that wild goose forever. Some people just like being miserable.
Tony, I appreciate your taking the time to explain what you mean. It really helped me understand your point(s) much more clearly than I understood them before. Thank you for explaining.

I pared down your post, and wanted to comment. NOT to change your mind - most of what you said I agree with, particularly the first paragraph I copied. I agree that it is very reasonable to reserve certain rewards for certain activities. I am also NOT trying to say or remotely imply that I am in any way *right*.

Here is my own experience: Though I love to team, I find I dislike the Trials. When I did a lot of them, I found myself (oddly) dreading logging into the game. I felt (again, oddly) depressed about the game as a whole. I had to do a fair amount of mental backtracking before I realized that it was the Trials. And still more backtracking to figure out WHY. I knew I didn't love doing trials, but so what? I do Synapses, right? So what?

The "what" is that I felt really isolated when I was doing a lot of Trials. I didn't get to know anyone. There was some banter, but not enough to develop any sort of connection. It felt dehumanizing for me. It also felt like I was participating only out of greed. Yes, I play where and what I do for rewards. But I also find enjoyment or challenge or satisfaction in what I do, as well. "Gimmee!!!!!!!!" is not a good enough reason to play. Nor can I immerse myself in the story aspect of the Trials. Rather than feel super-heroic, I felt like an ant, scurrying around with other ants, eventually succeeding only because we had the guys who really ARE super (the bad guys) so grossly outnumbered.

Nothing at all I'm saying is "right." Not even remotely right. It's also illogical (which is why I had to do all the mental backtracking). But it IS how I feel. Changing my mind about the whole thing has thus far not helped any. So, now I do Trials a couple times a month, when I've gotten over doing the last one. If I *had* to do more, I would log on less and less, most likely to the point where I only logged on very occasionally, and only to say "hi" to friends. And eventually I'd stop altogether. Reluctantly. Sadly. VERY sadly. But I just could not do that day after day and continue to enjoy the game.

I think this is what others (like the OP) are trying to express. I am not saying that everyone shares my feelings about this one activity, or shares my feelings. But I do believe there are similarities and parallels that we share. It's not about threatening to quit in a fit of nerd rage. More like that feeling like there's no choice but to leave, because it's too depressing to stay. It would suck whatever pleasure they got from the rest of the game, just like the Trials did to me.

The problem is not that people are "forced" to play something in particular. The problem is that if you want your character to progress, you are forced to play in a particular fashion which many people find makes the GAME ITSELF very unpleasant, even when doing other things.

Honestly (no hyperbole), I know a quite a few very long-time players who are logging on less and less, and some who seem to have left entirely within the last couple of months. None of the ones I know are soloists. What I hear is that the game is for Powergamers now. Or that it's become a Raid game. There is no place for them, or how they play. Some say they'll be back at I22, to see if it's worth it renewing their subscription. Each of them is looking for a new MMO to call home.

I just wanted you to understand.


 

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Originally Posted by Anchor View Post
The game did, in fact, support this playstyle at launch, and it got even more solo-friendly as it progressed.
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You had team content set aside for you since the game launched and only got more as time went on.
The game did get more solo-friendly over time, and it *also* added more teamed content over time. But this game never did specifically make any attempt to cater to players that wanted everything to be soloable. The guy running the show at launch didn't believe in that, and the current guys running the show don't believe that. They only believe most things should be soloable. They do not believe that precludes them from adding teamed content or rewards exclusive to teamed content.

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And being told, "This is the way it always was and how it has to be," and invoking proof-less "most players do such-and-such" claims when we've all got years of our own experiences in this game to draw upon is patronizing, annoying and, yes, completely inflexible.
Its not how it has to be, but it is how it always was and how it will always be. Of that I am absolutely certain. The devs will never stop adding QoL for solo players. They will never stop adding teamed content. They will never stop adding rewards exclusive to teamed content. They will sometimes eventually add solo ways to earn that originally exclusive to teamed content rewards, all the while they are adding more teamed exclusive rewards. This is never going to change, because the devs are not in the process of making up their minds whether the whole game should require teaming or the whole game should be soloable. They long ago made up their minds that most of the game should be soloable, and some of it can require teaming.

Its not my place to tell players not to fight to change that, but I have no problem saying that attempting to do so in either direction is a waste of time.


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