CoH: a game for Introverts, too
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2012-02-06 24:07 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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They have - Black Scorpion has said that " sometimes in developing a massively multiplayer game we are going to have content which encourages and rewards multiplayer play" - and Ghost Falcon has said that "ultimately, we really do want players to play together".
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Originally Posted by rsclark
Then they are fools and if they would come out and say it openly we could stop giving them money.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Thank you. |
Originally Posted by _eeek_
Captain E., you are my new favorite hero! I am grateful that you were able to say so well what I just mushed about trying (probably ineptly) to say earlier.
Perhaps the point is not which side is more correct (can't they both be?), but perhaps "how can viable incarnate progress happen on a team/small team/solo path, without being exploited by d-bags who want to farm phat i-lewts"? |
The answer is for the rewards to be crappier than they are on trials, as it should be. During my solo episodes and purposefully small teams, I'm looking for a different type of reward. It's called kicking butt, great stories, and feeling heroic. I'm not the only one to say this.
@Captain-Electric � Detective Marvel � The Sapien Spider � Moravec Man � The Old Norseman
Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH
I've been in the MMO scene for about...oooohh...7 years now. I've tried WoW, Everquest 1 and 2, Runescape, Urban Dead and I'm an introexvert type person according to my psychology teacher. I dunno how much of that I agree with, but it seems to fit me quite well.
On a toon on another game, I raided a lot for 2-3 years. I had a maxed out character with great gear and I was a good player, but not amazing. I enjoyed grouping but what I enjoyed more was using the gear I got from grouping to go solo. I could solo most of the level 80 24 man raids easily and I could make money from it, a fair deal of money actually.
This game doesn't have gear like that. A solo person could over time, become as powerful as sometime who runs trials 24/7 with IOs and now this is opening up the incarnate system to them.
This is one of the best solo games I've come across (second only to urban dead) and I think soloing should be encouraged, less spamming for DFB.
I'm a quiet person who gets drained dealing with people face to face, and enjoy small group interactions. Large crowds can be so uncomfortable mentally that I start to experience physical discomfort. Though I cherish time with friends, I can easily enjoy days alone in peace and quiet. I am an introvert.
And I play trials. I have no problem with them, I even interact more than most who don't chat or respond besides doing the 1-2-3 steps needed for succeeding in the trial. I have incarnated to all branches on 5 characters, and partially on three more. I have done trials on end getting master badges on these.
You know what? I do not dislike the experience. The big showdowns have a bit of theatricality and scale not soon found in other content. But you know what? When I'm on a 16-24 person league, I can perhaps remember 9. We cannot interact much because personal chatter dissolves into chaos when any significant number start to chat. You cannot do any of this when a trial is actual getting down to business, because excess chatter makes people miss directions. Mega-group leagues are inferior community and teaming experiences during trials.
Part of the issue is the number of people, part of the issue is that the trials are some of the tightest-scripted content in the game, and THAT is when the devs decided to crank the team size to 11. (or 24, rather) The tighter the scripting, the fewer distracting variables you need. A tightly scripted solo arc is fun, you can take time to watch the details unfold, to catch the development of a story. 23 other people running around, some trying to figure things out while other speed through smashing all in their way...? You simply cannot appreciate or be aware of other players so well. And with tight scripting comes more distinct roles, everyone HAS to follow the right strategy. Yet then you throw in more people, making the odds for someone messing up far higher.
Secondarily, time. I have a varied schedule, but still enjoy being able to drop in and play an hour or so on my favorite characters. Coincidentally, those are the ones I've spent enough time on to get to 50. I didn't have much to do one them before, but with the incarnate system, I can get new powers to flesh them out now. Except that I need to wait for 16-24 other players to be available and interested in the same piece of content. For each player added, the window of opportunity gets slimmer and the time to set up gets longer.
I very much hope that as the incarnate path becomes more difficult and demands more time to set up, the devs add far more 1-4 player options, and 8-16 as the LARGE scale content. Then you can see what you and people are doing, and appreciate without just being a body in a crowd.
"EPIC" final conflicts cannot be on the scale of rikti raids, because we are then just forgotten foot soldiers and we can't save the world until it matches with a bunch of other people's schedules and whims.
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That's because they're not dealing with people. They're talking to a computer screen.
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Originally Posted by Rebel_Scum
No offense meant to anyone, but it always amuses me how the supposed introverts are some of the most vocal people on the forums. Or that's how it seems these days.
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I agree with some of what you said, and as an introvert, certainly empathize.|
Originally Posted by Fritzy
CoH: a game for Introverts, too
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However, you also broadened the scope of the term "introvert" fairly substantially, and confounded it with so many other personality factors that you are no longer describing a single empirically-meaningful personality dimension, and are instead describing a constellation of personality traits.
In terms of a couple of specifics, the idea that extroverts don't set long term goals or don't enjoy scenery is not, I suspect, supportable by research data. The whole "need for stimulation/get bored easily" thing is less about being extroverted and more about sensation-seeking; last I checked, there is a moderate (medium effect size, per Cohen's standards) correlation between the two variables (extraversion and sensation-seeking), but they're hardly the same thing.
I appreciate that you feel that your personality and preferred play style are not being supported by the solo-path incarnate system. What you're describing goes way beyond the introversion/extraversion distinction, though, and your presentation of "introvert" and "extravert" does individuals who fall legitimately into either category something of a disservice by perpetuating stereotypes not grounded in fact.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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Where did they say they disagree point to a post. Stop trying to be the unpaid mouth piece of the devs its not cute.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The devs disagree
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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These things are always more credible when quoted in full and links are provided lest it look like you are just pulling this out of your bum.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
They have - Black Scorpion has said that " sometimes in developing a massively multiplayer game we are going to have content which encourages and rewards multiplayer play" - and Ghost Falcon has said that "ultimately, we really do want players to play together".
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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These things are always more credible when quoted in full and links are provided lest it look like you are just pulling this out of your bum.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
They have - Black Scorpion has said that " sometimes in developing a massively multiplayer game we are going to have content which encourages and rewards multiplayer play" - and Ghost Falcon has said that "ultimately, we really do want players to play together".
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Heaven forbid something being taken out of the full context in which it was stated.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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This is a reasonable request, one that I support. The devs have always provided interesting solo content in issues past, and I have no doubt that they will continue to do so.|
Originally Posted by Captain-Electric
Fritzy isn't asking for the game to be changed. He/she is asking for the devs to consider additional solo-friendly, high-level content going forward, and expressing his/her hopes that Issue 22 will provide some of that.
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However...
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Originally Posted by Fritzy
I hope the developers take these factors into consideration when designing future content. Creating content that is suitable and playable for all personality types is a tough problem to resolve, for sure, but it can be done given the proper insight and motivation. I just hope they don't undervalue our contributions and support of the game just because we are not as noisy and assertive as our counterparts.
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Again, I am not saying that having a solo Incarnate path is a bad thing. I'm waiting with eager anticipation for the updates to hit live just like most people, and I will be soaking up a lot of the new solo content with glee just like most people. It will be a lot of fun.
However, what I'm trying to get the OP to understand is that as fun as Issue 22 is going to be for him, Issues 19 through 21 were fun for us, and continue to be so, specifically because of the exciting teaming content out there, and the fact that because of the rewards, there are a lot of people who normally wouldn't team--mind you, I'm not saying people who don't like to team, but people who just normally don't team--doing stuff in groups. I'm not particularly extroverty, but I definitely hope they continue developing interesting team-only content with unique rewards in addition to the vast amount of soloable content they'll be developing with unique rewards.
The devs have just about always, in my opinion, struck a really nice balance between players with different types of play styles. The devs have always provided interesting perks for being well-rounded and doing a little bit of a lot of stuff, never really allowing so much for one type of play style to be the "right" kind of play style.
Maybe Incarnate trials aren't the most fun thing for you to do. Fair enough, no one is making you do them. If you're willing to suck it up and give them a try, you get access to more cool perks. If you're willing to wait a while, you might get access to those perks without having to team up in massive groups, but then, you might not have access to all of the latest and greatest bleeding edge stuff. This is all right and normal, such is the consequence of deliberately limiting how you're willing to play and refusing to be well-rounded. No one is making you, no one is saying that you're doing it wrong. It's just the carrots the devs are offering to be a multifaceted player, it's way the game has been from the beginning, and it's likely the way it will continue to be from now on.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
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http://boards.cityofheroes.com/search.php
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Where did they say they disagree point to a post.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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You definitely aren't the only exception. I'm a pretty introverted person in general. I basically play CoH in one of three ways: I solo, I duo with Archie, or I play TFs and Trials. If I team, I vastly prefer to play in large groups doing content with a specific endpoint, so that I don't feel obliged to chat if I don't feel like it, and I know that there's a point where I can leave easily.
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Originally Posted by jeanngray
Must be I'm the exception to your thoughts because I absolutely love playing Lambda (not that SLAM garbage), the BAF, and Keyes. Have yet to try the newer trials, but think they'll be fun too. I enjoy them because I can easily get stuff done and blend into the crowd. I don't have to be popular or cool or social to get in on them either.
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Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
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MM merely means "shared environment".|
Originally Posted by TonyV
You are, however, playing an MMORPG, a genre of game that is primarily oriented towards teaming up and interacting with other people. You have to understand that.
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Nothing more. It means you have more than 2-16 people in an instance of the game.
It has nothing to do with teaming being recognized as THE "right" way to play.
Please put the "MMO means teaming" argument back into its grave. It was a dead, wrong argument from the get-go.
I'm not saying there should not be SOME content in the game that requires a team to successfully circumnavigate.
However certain "developments" in the game pretty much assure that some of the things tied to PC advancement is only really viable via large-team content. THAT is what's unacceptable.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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You're not a dev. Stop attempting to put words in their mouth.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The devs disagree
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Try to post something useful for once instead of rabid brown-nosing posts.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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And they're talking to a computer screen on the Trials too |
Originally Posted by dbuter
That's because they're not dealing with people. They're talking to a computer screen.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
[QUOTE=Arbiter_Shade;4106371]People are so offended that there is a group based system that rewards better than a solo system?/QUOTE]
No. People are offended that there's a solo-based system that's been gimped rewards-wise so that it's one or more orders of magnitude slower than the trial system. And why was it gimped that way? Because the trial system offers rewards that the devs already feel are "too good", and they don't want people running both and advancing "too fast".
And if they nerf the trial system to bring things down to a more acceptable speed overall, nobody'd run the trials.
So...what does that say about the trial system?
Nobody in their right mind is asking for "as fast as trials".
Nobody in their right mind thinks even "half as fast" is likely to happen (though it'd be nice).
Something between 1/4-1/8 as fast would likely be seen as unpleasant, but acceptable.
As to what the actual drop rates look like? Hit up the i22 forum for the threadnaught on this issue.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
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Here's some more useful advice.
- Click on User CP
- Click on Edit Ignore List
- Type in Golden Girl
- Click Okay.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
GG lifted the Ghost Falcon quote from this post
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...4&postcount=16
made by Ghost Falcon.
here's the Black Scorpion comment
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=302
Google does a better job of finding this quotes then search.php does
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Originally Posted by warden_de_dios
GG lifted the Ghost Falcon quote from this post
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...4&postcount=16 made by Ghost Falcon. |
I think we all recognize they want players to play together, but there is an assertion that they want that and they don't want solo players to solo, which most of us know is garbage. If that were true on ANY level then they would not have bothered revamping DA recently or made any of the solo friendly changes over the past five years I have played the game.
The question is the pace of reward and balancing that to make more sense than it currently does. It takes some intellectual honesty to relate to that and GG is too busy playing the fake internet games to deal honestly. Not just today about this issue, I mean ever.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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This simply isn't true. There are a lot of games out there that are multi-player, some even with large numbers of players at once, that are not considered MMOs because they don't involve any significant degree of interaction with each other. It was merely what you just described: a game that takes place in a shared environment.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
MM merely means "shared environment".
Nothing more. It means you have more than 2-16 people in an instance of the game. |
For example, ond that comes to mind was the old Xbox Live game 1 vs. 100 (now defunct, unfortunately
). At any given time, there could be tens of thousands of players playing. There was even a rudimentary level of interactivity in that you could make your avatar dance and such. But no one ever referred to it as a MMO.Another example. Waaaaay back in the day, I used to play an IRC chatbot game (do they even still exist?) called Acrophobia. At any given time, there could be hundreds or thousands of people playing. There was a lounge-type area where you could sit around and chat amongst yourselves, and after a few minutes, you'd be sucked into an "instance" with five or six other people to compete at trying to make humorous phrases given a set of random letters. There were a lot of people playing. There was some rudimentary level of interaction in common areas, and game interaction in individual game instances. And it was, of course, online. Again, though, it was not an MMO.
As much as some folks would like to redefine what the genre is based on some dictionary definition of the individual words, the commonly accepted definition of the genre is that there are a lot of people playing who are not just single islands out there doing their own thing, but who are actually willing and capable of interacting with each other at some high level. It doesn't necessarily mean that you have to or even that you are doing so a majority of the time, but it does mean that the capability to do so is an core feature of what makes the game fun.
I'm not just making this up. If you put any credence into Wikipedia, check out the article on MMOGs.
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There are a number of factors shared by most MMOGs that make them different from other types of games. MMOGs create a persistent universe where the game milieu continues regardless of interaction. Since these games emphasize multiplayer gameplay, many have only basic single-player aspects and the artificial intelligence on the server is primarily designed to support group play. As a result, players cannot "finish" MMOGs in the typical sense of single-player games. However single player game play is quite viable, although this may result in the player being unable to experience all content. This is especially the case for content designed for a multiplayer group commonly called a "party" or "raid party" in the case of the largest player groups which are required for the most significant and potentially rewarding play experiences and "boss fights" which are often designed to require multiple players to ensure the creature or NPC is killed. |
So yes, there's definitely an argument that needs to be put into the grave, but it's not mine.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
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Quotes taken out of context mean nothing|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
They have - Black Scorpion has said that " sometimes in developing a massively multiplayer game we are going to have content which encourages and rewards multiplayer play" - and Ghost Falcon has said that "ultimately, we really do want players to play together".
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Originally Posted by Black Scorpion
Hey again, Black Scorpion here to expound a little bit more on the Strike Pack.
The Weekly Strike Target is the only means of obtaining rare and very rare Alpha Slot abilities before Issue 20. We understand that this means grouping. The addition of the WST will make finding a group for the focused content easier; we believe that people will run the WST multiple times, either to earn the badge or to earn the increased rewards on multiple characters, or even just because it will be easier to find a group for it. Also, to get yourself a single rare ability and earn the level shift will only require running the WST once, and to get a very rare ability it will only take two additional runs. If thats not your cup of tea, the Incarnate Trials in Issue 20 are going to be an alternative means of obtaining the same abilities. We are investigating a variety of strategies for the solo player to engage the system as well in the future. No one is more excited than I about the excitement concerning the Alpha Slot and the Incarnate system, and we want to offer more ways for people to participate and enjoy the content they love. On the other claw, sometimes in developing a massively multiplayer game we are going to have content which encourages and rewards multiplayer play. Your bud in the Incarnate-powered armor, Black Scorpion |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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I've been looking for that thing for ages. The last forum I was in just had a button next to the user's posts.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Here's some more useful advice.
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Regardless, Tony, you're wrong. I don't mean I disagree with your opinion, I mean you are provably, factually wrong. MMORPG has a definition: A game where a large number of players (typically >30 or so) all play in a shared environment that continues to evolve and change (even if only in trivial ways) while any given player is logged off, or even all of them. Also, it must be an RPG. Even if the game has no teaming whatsoever, it can still qualify as an MMORPG. In fact, it's possible to have free-for-all deathmatch MMOGs, and I think they've even made one or two.
As far as what "should" happen, well, whatever makes the devs the most money. That's almost certainly going to line up with whatever most players want (players being the source of the money and all) as well as being what'll keep the game online for the longest. The question isn't "is forced teaming a good idea according to some arbitrary moral system I constructed solely for the purpose of being self-righteous about my freakin' video game preferences," but rather "does forced teaming make the game more fun for enough people such that they will spend more money on it."
Whatever Golden Girl can be accused of, outright fabrication of facts and quotes is not one of them. She knows whose side she's on and supports that side often. Ninety-nine percent of the time I'm in the same camp, and if I had more time to post, you'd all know about it. When it comes to development, what we are just now hearing about has been in the pipeline long beforehand. This goes for any day of the week. So you're better off playing an MMORPG with devs that you like. That is why almost any MMORPG I've ever played only kept my business for three months, tops. And it is why City of Heroes has kept my business for over two years now. I sympathize with those of you who always seem emphatically to be at odds with the devs, but I cannot relate to you at all.
Tony, you're correct about multifaceted play being more rewarding. The incarnate trials aren't the only facets of City of Heroes that I haven't really dived into yet, but I'm always up to something new. I'm relatively new compared to the age of the game. There's a lot for me to see and do, and I'm in no rush.
But I still think you've unintentionally taken the OP's wishes out of context. I don't think Fritzy is asking for all content to be 100% solo-friendly moving forward, and I don't think Fritzy is even talking about the seven years of content looking back. Fritzy seems to be concerned about future content taking a more narrow vision, compared to the awesome past 90% of content you keep bringing up.
A clarification from Fritzy would be great, right now. But if that's the case, I can support her position. But NOT only her position. I also support your side of the argument, but I think you should be nicer about it. I admire you for how much you do for the community, but at least in your original reply to the OP, you come off kind of like an insensitive jerk with an extreme point of view. The OP was very respectful. You can tell they put the time and effort into carefully wording their post. You should never tell someone like that where the door is, I don't care in what terms you couch it.
You'll notice I'm in the middle. Well it doesn't mean I don't know what my position ought to be. I think this a GREAT position to support in an online game with many thousands of customers. But to be honest, I would sorely be tempted to delete my posts from this thread if I felt no one had really noticed them. Because really I think Issue 22 stands to give players like me (when I'm in my solo moods) more of what we want. Why start complaining right before dinner's served? I don't know.
I'd like to see a discussion started about the need for small forced teams. I'm serious. The Halloween haunted house was great fun. I often make small teams purposefully, four or five people, because roles and strategies become much more important at that size, while also giving people room to let the personalities show. You can't just steam roll every mission, and winning against the bad guys really gives you all something to talk about. I have good memories about small teams I was on. Most of the 8-person teams I've been on are kind of a blur.
Taking a militaristic view over definitions of acronyms is no help. We should be thinking about what makes the game fun for those who play it. All of them. If this devolves into a discussion over an acronym, as I fear it will, then it will be everyone's loss. We could have a great community brainstorming session for ideas about solo-friendly content.
@Captain-Electric � Detective Marvel � The Sapien Spider � Moravec Man � The Old Norseman
Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH
Publishers in the MMO genre learned years ago that their games paradoxically attract introverts. Where there's money to be made, money will be made. Unfortunately, Golden Girl and TonyV are right in this specific case, regarding high level content. They've pegged the devs narrowing vision to a T.
Well, I wish we could all be right.
Perhaps the point is not which side is more correct (can't they both be?), but perhaps "how can viable incarnate progress happen on a team/small team/solo path, without being exploited by d-bags who want to farm phat i-lewts"?