CoH: a game for Introverts, too
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2012-02-06 24:07 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I don't know the developers' minds on things. All I know is what they've provided. Often times what they provide is in direct opposition to what they state they want.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I don't know why this is true, but the devs position has been pretty obvious and yet constantly debated. Their position has always consistently been: Most things should be accessible by solo players, but not everything needs to be. Pretty simple, and pretty straight forward. And yet people still think that the devs either "know" that MMOs are all about teaming, or they think the devs have finally realized the truth that everything should be soloable on reasonable solo terms. Neither are true, and that's not going to change any time soon.
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Take Positron and his refusal to allow offline SG invites to your own account. He states this yet apparently has no issue with letting me crank up free accounts that have SG access to get around his desire that SG's be a social construct.
I assume Tony was going to bring up the task force commander accolade, but that too is something I can now do without any other player's interaction whatsoever.
So what have the devs done with I-22? They have partially corrected the problem of soloists only having the shards to incarnate power conversion which was, well.... most of us agreed, a completely ridiculous solution. Sure, we're still up in arms about the progress a soloist can make over a given period of time in beta, but even that is a vastly superior solution over what we had.
I don't need other players, at this particular time, to start any of the non-incarnate trials. All I need is 7 freebie accounts with at least level 45 characters. (If that's the min for STF/LRSF.)
As you say, there is a difference between forced and encouraged. As it stands, I'm not forced to team in this game for anything unless one makes the claim that I'm teaming when I pad a TF to start and have the last log off instead of quit.
Be well, people of CoH.
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I would love to see you try to solo an eight man Lambda. Feel free to fraps it, might need a RAM upgrade for that. Don't bother booking more than five minutes of space on youtube, though.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Sure. And by team you will have to mean other humans and ignore the fact that I can fire up 8 accounts on my rig now.
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I was hoping to try one day... I was able to take out a level 54 Marauder, but he is over buffed in that trial. Meaning I find it unlikely that I'd be able to dish out enough damage to take him down in time. However, lucky for me I don't have to thanks to I-22.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I would love to see you try to solo an eight man Lambda. Feel free to fraps it, might need a RAM upgrade for that. Don't bother booking more than five minutes of space on youtube, though.
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Be well, people of CoH.
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I was not referring specifically to Bill statement and that was not what my posts were about. sorry for the confusion.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm afraid its not in this case. The statement under challenge is Bill's statement:
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My posts were about GG taking a small end portion of a fully evolved statement by the devs and trying to shoehorn it into a certain spin ignoring the context of the full comment to support her position of horridly slow solo progression specifically for DA.
To me this was never about the acronym argument that others are having, it was about GG coming here playing the internet game of dev parrot while not fully quoting the entirety of the statement period.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Where oh where is the talk for enforced RPGing. After all, it's a MMORPG, we should be forcing a level of role play from players to gain end game rewards.
Which, is just a stupid as inisting multiplayer = forced teaming.
I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.
Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.
So sad to be ending ):
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Okay. Let's say I'll make a standard swords and sorcery type MMORPG, and even one that relies heavily on team-based play and synergy, but then I'll also give players access to henchies, NPC allies of roughly the same strength, who come in a wide variety of different classes and roles, thus allowing a player to fill out his party even if he's literally the only one on the server. That might prove irritating after a while, so I'll also give him a stable of characters that he sort-of controls directly; he can level them up and assign their skills just as if they were his own character. As an added bonus, these characters can be important plot-NPCs and the player will care about them significantly more, since they're valuable gameplay allies.| In your reality, I'd like to see you develop an MMOG in which no interaction is required. |
The henchmen system does raise a certain problem in that two players with a full party of 3/5/7/whatever henchmen will be twice as powerful as the game expected any party to ever be...But that's the exact same problem faced by any MMO with regards to players being able to gather into massive groups. The answer is usually just to put all major conflicts in instanced dungeons which only members of your current party can enter which, if you're maxed out on henchmen, will be only NPCs. In fact, I could even make everything but towns instanced, and since hundreds of players could still interact in those towns, team up, and then enter the instances together, it could easily be argued that it's just as much an MMO as CoX is now.
I think I'll call this hypothetical MMO "Guild Wars."
Granted, the above example was largely sarcastic, but as both Guild Wars and CoX's own door missions show (albeit via different methods), you don't actually need to have certain content be just solo and other content be just groups. So long as it's instanced, which the Trials already are, you can just scale the opposition up with number of players who enter the instance. I can do it all solo or in a small team, other people can do 40-man raids, and neither of us really cares that the other options exist.
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Hey Tony, if I log in and go through Maria Jenkins' arc by myself, am I playing solo content (which in your usage means "solo-only, no teams"), or am I playing soloable content? |
Originally Posted by TonyV
This is a reasonable request, one that I support. The devs have always provided interesting solo content in issues past, and I have no doubt that they will continue to do so.
However... This is directly a call to the developers to make more solo content. |
There is a difference between "SOLOABLE" and "SOLO-ONLY". The OP never once said they want more solo-only content. The OP repeatedly said they want soloable content. They didn't even say they wanted EASY soloable content, just more content that they can play alone.
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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I'm not sure why this thread has become an argument about absolutes, definitions or extremes. I don't know anyone who prefers to solo that thinks that every bit of game content should be available for solo players, nor do I know anyone who enjoys teaming that thinks solo players should all just pack up and leave. No one posting here has suggested that either of these views is their belief, either. So if no one here believes any of these things, then why is there an argument about how each extreme is wrong, stupid, etc. and how can people believe such rubbish? Doesn't someone have to actually voice support for the rubbish extreme viewpoint in order for everyone else to jump on them and tell them they're idiots?
Paraphrasing (broadly), the OP was saying is that the current endgame content is a "deal-breaker" for some, and possibly for lot of players, and I22 is, or can be, the determining factor whether or not there is any place for them in the game as it appears to be unfolding. This isn't controversial. This how someone feels However, the conclusions based upon those feelings may be faulty, which the OP admits is a possibility. Yet that isn't the part anyone seems to be arguing over, and that's what actually does seem controversial:
If I22 doesn't provide a viable (eg, not 2 threads per arc for the mission holder only, or whatever), alternative to character progression other than I-Trials, do you think there will be a significant drop in longtime players? What kind of percentage of long-term, more stable playerbase (which the OP was referring to) do you think are feeling this level of hopelessness about the game, and them having a place in it? Should we joke about it, and say DOOOOOOOOM and "can I have your stuff?" or should this be taken seriously?
I know that several people who have posted here would die before admitting it, but I really don't feel the need to say more about the subject. My point has been proven. Words were put into my mouth, and I proved they were false. I've called out bogus claims, and the response has been to twist the definition of MMO into something so contorted that is unrecognizable and that doesn't exist, or even to try to redefine "teaming" to mean... I don't even know what. I guess we're all supposed to take Turing tests or something.
So... Yeah.
_eeek_ and Arcanaville are right. Golden Girl is awesome. The OP (and most posters in this thread) isn't evil, just a bit misguided. It's cool, but I hope you have a little more insight now and don't feel so much like the devs have been picking on you.
And we'll be having this same argument the next time the devs release content and/or rewards that are only obtainable via teaming, probably in eight months to a year. Just like we've had it umpteen times before. And it will go pretty much the same way.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
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Operative term "required".|
Originally Posted by TonyV
 Okay, genius. In your reality, I'd like to see you develop an MMOG in which no interaction is required. |
If you're talking about "Ooh! I saw another player run past!", yeah, that level is pretty much always going to be there. It's part of being in a shared environment.
If you want to experience ALL of the content in the game, yes, you will be required to team at some point.
If you don't care about the teaming portions of the game, there's exactly NOTHING stopping you from ever socially interacting with another soul. Via market, chat, teaming, etc.
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| I even have a name to suggest for it: "Boring Town: I Can't Believe I Wasted My Money Developing This Crap Edition". |
It's not even up to the devs.
The game, by its free form nature, allows players to essentially come in and do "whatever". Including nothing.
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| Seriously, it's not rocket science. A game in which interaction with other players isn't a key element of the game is not an MMOG. Period. End of story. (And you know I'm not talking about buying and selling stuff on the market.) The longer you keep insisting that it is, the deeper you dig your hole, and the sillier you sound. |
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| You're so dug in now that I understand you not wanting to give an inch. |
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But if you could just step back for a minute and read what you've been saying, I really hope that you'd realize just how foolish it sounds. That 1) there could be MMOGs out there where everyone blithely ignores everyone else and have full access to all the content, and that's a feasible plan, and 2) that City of Heroes should be such a game. It's ludicrous. Maybe if you just calm down a little bit, take a break, talk to some buddies about your weird theories, you'll realize just how wrong you are. ...At least, I hope. |
We're saying that social interaction (most currently "to point" being "teaming") within an MMOG is OPTIONAL. Not MANDATORY.
Some MMOGs opt to try and make it mandatory. Some don't.
What's ALSO being said is that the not-so-subtle attempts to "herd" people into teaming (with vague whiffs of "or else") and the various attempts cripple a deterministic path that doesn't require teaming aren't well received.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Must have hurt tucking that tail up so hard.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Originally Posted by TonyV
So before I reply to this, I want to know up front: If I can give you one example of a performance level item that is impossible to obtain without being on a team at some point, will you drop this once and for all? I won't even demand an apology, just showing everyone else that you're wrong will be enough. I merely require that you stop this incessant trolling.
All I need is one, right? Because your claim of ZERO was rather emphatic. |
Again. Nobody's talking about performance levels.
Well, except you.
I say to you, prove to ME that any content in this game (City of Heroes), outside of expressly OPTIONAL team content requires teaming.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Actually I did, and he couldn't counter it because he knows that by utilizing workarounds a person CAN solo things that aren't supposed to be soloed. It's rather sad that he isn't capable of simply admitting that he's wrong.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Again. Nobody's talking about performance levels. Well, except you. I say to you, prove to ME that any content in this game (City of Heroes), outside of expressly OPTIONAL team content requires teaming. |
Be well, people of CoH.
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The long and short of the argument is this. Is teaming "required" in this game? Is there ANY non-optional content in the game where you MUST team to achieve your goal?|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
*SNIP*
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Nobody here is arguing that teaming isn't good, or more rewarding than soloing (most of the time). Merely that "massively multiplayer is NOT synonymous with teaming"
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Because some of the old-timers have problems with each other, and they won't grow up and learn how to talk about the topic instead of each other. I realized this somewhere around the third page.|
Originally Posted by _eeek_
I'm not sure why this thread has become an argument about absolutes, definitions or extremes.
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So the thread devolved almost from the starting line into exaggerated claims about others positions. We could have had a brainstorming discussion for ideas about solo-friendly content. But instead we have five more pages of axe-grinding.
I may consider just sending my suggestions in via in-game petitions.
@Captain-Electric � Detective Marvel � The Sapien Spider � Moravec Man � The Old Norseman
Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH
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THIS|
Originally Posted by _eeek_
I'm not sure why this thread has become an argument about absolutes, definitions or extremes.
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IS
THE INTERNET!
*Gives Tyrant a Big Boot into a pit*
Part of it is that people think that how something is defined (to them) actually affects the reality of what it is.
Can it become a bit pedantic?
Oh flipping GOD YES!
But I'm too obstinate to back down against someone who thinks their opinion defines reality and deigns to tell me that I'm wrong and stupid and need to just shut up and be a good little sheeple.
I like Tony. I respect the hell out of him for the work he's done with the Titan Network.
That doesn't mean he's always right. (He's not.)
Or that he's right in this situation. (Again, he's not.)
Or that his opinion has anymore bearing on reality than mine. (It doesn't.)
Maybe I should just challenge him to a nerf pistol duel at 10 paces at the player's summit.
Yeah...
*Looks for a white glove...*
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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If by old timers you mean veteran players, that's not even remotely true. I watched this same stupid argument play out on the forum of that new light saber game and that game only launched a month ago.
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Originally Posted by Captain-Electric
Because some of the old-timers have problems with each other
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Actually I did, and he couldn't counter it because he knows that by utilizing workarounds a person CAN solo things that aren't supposed to be soloed. It's rather sad that he isn't capable of simply admitting that he's wrong.
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Okay I stand corrected on that.
I will rephrase.
"My argument" is not and never has been about performance levels.
Merely the basic tenet of "all the content in the game is optional. Both soloable content and team-oriented content.
A player can opt not to interact with others for the entirety of their tenure within the game. That's on them. But at no point are they "forced" to team.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Yup. It's like a ninja pirate cyborg zombie on steroids.
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Originally Posted by Demobot
Oh look, this thread again.
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Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Without getting into the solo v. group debate, the OP is wrong in describing people who enjoy to solo as introverts. I score very high on most tests for introversion, but I like to group. Grouping does not have many of the stressors that make real life social activities so physically and mentally exhausting.
Just wanted to say that, I leave you to your dead horse.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Oh dear. |
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
If by old timers you mean veteran players, that's not even remotely true. I watched this same stupid argument play out on the forum of that new light saber game and that game only launched a month ago.
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I just deleted a lot of words, but really my feeling is pretty clear. I have only ever been really active on one other forum, and it was heavily moderated to keep people on topic. Now I know why.
@Captain-Electric � Detective Marvel � The Sapien Spider � Moravec Man � The Old Norseman
Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH
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all content in the game is optional
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Is there ANY non-optional content in the game where you MUST team to achieve your goal?
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Or you guys could stop trying to shout him down for suggesting that having some team-required content is reasonable and fine in a MMORPG. I know what the likelihood of that is, though!
Guess what, the devs side with him. You can snipe about it until your fingers turn blue, won't change a thing. |
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Or perhaps the tone of his posts has something to do with the half dozen people dogpiling him with patronizing dreck like, "Man up, accept that you're wrong, and move on." Maybe you guys should try coming to terms with the fact that being an introvert, to quote the title of the thread, does not entitle you to be the King of Games, reigning monarch of the land of Paragon. Sometimes you have to just deal with the sadly imperfect realities of life. I wish you luck.
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What I'm saying - and this is something I've said very often before - is that I feel there should be a multiple paths to any destination. Now, obviously, what constitutes a "destination" is a somewhat nebulous concept, but within the context of City of Heroes, I'd say that stands for "every reward." And I do strongly believe this - that a path should exist to obtaining every reward in the game that consists entirely of activities that don't require other people.
Again, asking for a path that's like this isn't the same as asking to walk that path. It's natural that a player will team sometimes and solo at other times. But by ensuring that a whole path exists, you ensure that no matter when that player finds himself without a team or not in the mood to team, then that player will have something to do to make progress.
That's the nature of options. I get the point behind encouraging people to team, but I'm also always in favour of giving players a non-team option to fall back on or indulge in however much they feel they want or need to.