CoH: a game for Introverts, too
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2012-02-06 24:07 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Well, I wasn't in the dog pile, or at least not in the same argument as those half dozen other people. I was sticking up for decency and civility toward the OP, but I keep regretting something I typed on page three.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Rancid
Bravo. Thank you for this.
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Originally Posted by Captain-Electric
I also support your side of the argument, but I think you should be nicer about it. I admire you for how much you do for the community, but at least in your original reply to the OP, you come off kind of like an insensitive jerk with an extreme point of view. The OP was very respectful. You can tell they put the time and effort into carefully wording their post. You should never tell someone like that where the door is, I don't care in what terms you couch it.
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That was my intention, but it's no excuse to be a hypocrite. I might not agree with everything Tony has said here, but what about almost every other post he's made that I've agreed with? What is that, chopped liver? I respect and even look up to him for all of his hard work.
I was going to send you a PM, Tony, but instead I'll apologize publicly. Sorry.
@Captain-Electric � Detective Marvel � The Sapien Spider � Moravec Man � The Old Norseman
Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH
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My counter is pretty durn simple. Firing up eight accounts is not soloing. If anyone else here considers firing up eight accounts and joining them all up on one team as soloing, then I give up. By all means, go join Bill on his Isle of Crazy.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Actually I did, and he couldn't counter it because he knows that by utilizing workarounds a person CAN solo things that aren't supposed to be soloed. It's rather sad that he isn't capable of simply admitting that he's wrong.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
The long and short of the argument is this. Is teaming "required" in this game? Is there ANY non-optional content in the game where you MUST team to achieve your goal?
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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
all content in the game is optional
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There are significant shinies gated behind teaming. Badges, accolade powers, costume pieces, temporary powers, gobs of story lines, etc. It's not a majority of the game (thus why I keep saying that the game is solo-friendly), but it is a significant part of the game. And it will continue to be so going forward.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
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You really don't need to, I don't take any of this stuff personally. In spite of finding myself arguing with most people here at some time or another, there really aren't very many people on the forums that I just plain don't like. Neither the OP nor you are even close to being in that very small group. Hell, even Hyperstrike I like enough to still want to room with at the spring Pummit. Part of me thinks it would be kind of fun and cathartic to yell at each other in person instead of all of this typing back and forth; at least we could finish the fight by having a beer or something. |
Originally Posted by Captain-Electric
I was going to send you a PM, Tony, but instead I'll apologize publicly. Sorry.
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I don't hate the OP. He seems like a nice enough guy. But I still feel like he is implicitly asking the devs to provide solo-only access to 100% of the game's content. And by gummy, such is his right to ask. Other people have in much longer and heated threads than this one. But then as now, I feel that this is an unreasonable request that would do much more harm to the game than good. By explaining why, I'm hoping that the OP will understand why the pendulum will never swing all the way in his direction, and to curb some of his disappointment when more stuff is inevitably gated behind teaming.
At the end of the day, though, all of these little tiffs are moot. The devs are gonna do what the devs are gonna do, and I'm convinced that no amount of begging or pleading, whether nicely or raging, is going to make them change their minds about teaming being a fundamental aspect of what makes this game tick. While I call out BS where I see it ("firing up eight accounts isn't teaming!"), in my heart of hearts, I'm really not worried about where the game is going. That's the ultimate vindication of these arguments.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
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Of the listed items, the only thing I find potentially significant are the costume pieces. Of those, the major pieces are available through other means now.|
Originally Posted by TonyV
There are significant shinies gated behind teaming. Badges, accolade powers, costume pieces, temporary powers, gobs of story lines, etc.
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Badges don't do anything on their own.
I've yet to see an Accolade power that made me specifically want to perform the Tasks to get it.
The temporary nature of temporary powers is enough to make me not want to jump through any hoops to get them.
And story lines become immaterial in most MMO teaming situations I've experienced. There's little time to absorb them before the hive mind juggernaut trundles inexorably onward.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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I never doubted your character, but I still had to do the right thing. |
Originally Posted by TonyV
You really don't need to, I don't take any of this stuff personally.
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Originally Posted by TonyV
I don't hate the OP. He seems like a nice enough guy. But I still feel like he is implicitly asking the devs to provide solo-only access to 100% of the game's content.
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Originally Posted by TonyV
Precisely. The long and short of the argument is not, "Is teaming required in this game?" It is, "Is teaming a significant aspect of this game?"
There are significant shinies gated behind teaming. Badges, accolade powers, costume pieces, temporary powers, gobs of story lines, etc. It's not a majority of the game (thus why I keep saying that the game is solo-friendly), but it is a significant part of the game. And it will continue to be so going forward. |
Part of me wishes the OP would just come back and clarify her position. But another part of me, at this point, feels like the topic should just be brought up again post-Issue 22, when we all have a better idea of the state of all things solo.
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Originally Posted by TonyV
At the end of the day, though, all of these little tiffs are moot. The devs are gonna do what the devs are gonna do, and I'm convinced that no amount of begging or pleading, whether nicely or raging, is going to make them change their minds about teaming being a fundamental aspect of what makes this game tick.
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@Captain-Electric � Detective Marvel � The Sapien Spider � Moravec Man � The Old Norseman
Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH
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I consider it soloing unless the other accounts help. Using 7 accounts to let an 8th get into content it then faces all on its own is soloing.|
Originally Posted by TonyV
My counter is pretty durn simple. Firing up eight accounts is not soloing. If anyone else here considers firing up eight accounts and joining them all up on one team as soloing, then I give up. By all means, go join Bill on his Isle of Crazy.
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If the 7 other accounts buff, fight, or basically do anything meaningful, I agree that this is not soloing. If they sit at the contact, it is.
Were anyone to claim that using 7 to start content but only 1 to complete it is not soloing (and I am not 100% clear that you are) I would consider that pedantic in the extreme. It may be technically correct, but it's not practically meaningful.
Blue
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If you play any other MMORPG out there, for instance the ten ton gorilla, the ten ton gorilla in space, the little rhesus monkey in tights, the one ton gorilla from Hyboria, or the one ton gorilla with zone events, you will find that City of Heroes is an extremely team-friendly MMORPG.|
Originally Posted by TonyV
As I've said repeatedly, it is a solo-friendly MMORPG.
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In all those other games, you have a team system which involves a private team chat, a way to monitor each other's health, a way of seeing each other's position and the option to share the quests from the solo quest system imported from non-MMO RPGs. Content-wise, you don't need the other players. If you're not in sync progress and level-wise, you're mostly hindered by the other players on the team. The only exception is those raid thingys at the end.
In this game, you don't have to share the quests. The team leader just sets which quest is active, and all the players can see all the details about it. You get rewarded no matter if you have the quest or not; you can help completing the quest no matter if it's yours or not (clicking X or killing Y automatically counts); the quests scale to the number of participants...
...and then there's super side-kicking, which guarantees your progression even if you're helping the n00b.
I get the sense that there is a paradigm that an MMORPG is a single player RPG with a team system patched on so that players can participate in raids, and that you simply can't break the paradigm. Not even the devs of the little rhesus monkey in tights seemed to be able to break free of the ten ton gorilla paradigm of a single player RPG quest system with a share button.
I don't know if its stupidity, peer pressure or lack of imagination, but I'm still astonished that other MMORPGs haven't stolen CoHs idea. It's not even stolen to NC Soft's other MMORPGs, so it can't be a patent issue.
Hands down, CoH is the most team friendly MMORPG out there.
Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"
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The problem, for me, isn't that end level content include raid content. The problem, for me, is when you take a seven-year old, very casual-friendly game, and introduce raid content that you must take part in to advance past a certain point.|
Originally Posted by TonyV
There are significant shinies gated behind teaming. Badges, accolade powers, costume pieces, temporary powers, gobs of story lines, etc. It's not a majority of the game (thus why I keep saying that the game is solo-friendly), but it is a significant part of the game. And it will continue to be so going forward.
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Some of us played this game for so long precisely because it didn't have this kind of content. It's a fairly significant paradigm shift that is bound to cause some friction.
(and let's not forget that compared to 'certain other MMOs', a full 8-man team in CoH is already practically a raid-sized team)
I, for one, won't demand solo-only content. But I would much rather have team-focused content (that, thanks to our wonderful scaling mechanic, usually also mean soloable) than raid-oriented content. Seriously, I can't think of any justification for raid content over team content, except if you want to make the experience as painful as possible.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
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Honestly, I feel most of that is moot, and that's not an attempt to dismiss your point. The only place in the game where "forced teaming" was ever really an issue in recent times is the Incarnate system. We could argue about it one way or the other... Or we could have, had the developers not offered Dark Astoria.|
Originally Posted by TonyV
Precisely. The long and short of the argument is not, "Is teaming required in this game?" It is, "Is teaming a significant aspect of this game?"
There are significant shinies gated behind teaming. Badges, accolade powers, costume pieces, temporary powers, gobs of story lines, etc. It's not a majority of the game (thus why I keep saying that the game is solo-friendly), but it is a significant part of the game. And it will continue to be so going forward. |
Now, obviously, whether Dark Astoria actually brings meaningful progression or not is up for debate. I know Bill Z Bubba is very unhappy with the rate of progress there. But whether it does or it doesn't is not as important as what it represents - a clear admission by the development team that a solo-capable path to progression is something that they understand people want.
That's really the tall and short of it, and I believe that's pretty much all the OP was saying, as well. The Incarnate system used to be exclusionary, and it looks like it won't be any more. And that's good.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Ppppbbbbbbleeeeeeease [/Roger Rabbit] go back and read my previous post, Tony.
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Originally Posted by TonyV
But I still feel like he is implicitly asking the devs to provide solo-only access to 100% of the game's content.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Yup. Having to have the second account remain on the team but logged off to get around the minimum team size requirement does not magically turn what we do solo into teaming.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I consider it soloing unless the other accounts help. Using 7 accounts to let an 8th get into content it then faces all on its own is soloing.
If the 7 other accounts buff, fight, or basically do anything meaningful, I agree that this is not soloing. If they sit at the contact, it is. Were anyone to claim that using 7 to start content but only 1 to complete it is not soloing (and I am not 100% clear that you are) I would consider that pedantic in the extreme. It may be technically correct, but it's not practically meaningful. |
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
That's really the tall and short of it, and I believe that's pretty much all the OP was saying, as well. The Incarnate system used to be exclusionary, and it looks like it won't be any more. And that's good.
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Be well, people of CoH.
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That is the only important issue and has been from the start.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Hopefully we'll get the progress rates tweaked more toward acceptable and all will be well.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
I have to agree with %100 of everything TonyV has laid out about the topic.
If I were to put it in my own words though it'd be something rather snarky and mean like "Those desperatly fighting so hard for 100% solo content need to go play a offline game, end of story. That way you never have to interact with people like me. Trust me you'll be happier for it, and so will I." Heck many offline games can offer even better options to gameplay and freedom then CoX could with better graphics.
Pro team player all the way in this MMO setting and in life in general. Positive teamwork and helping hands has always been way more fun.
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Thing is that the other MMORPGs don't have much team content at all. Most is actually single-play quests with a "share" button added to it. It's not that often that it works, by the way - the other player may not be at the right spot in the quest chain, or have done it already. In either case, the share button doesn't always work.|
Originally Posted by twistedlogic77
Pro team player all the way in this MMO setting and in life in general. Positive teamwork and helping hands has always been way more fun.
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Unless you hit exactly the sweet spot where the other players are at the same place in the quest chain, the only actual team content are the raids at the end game. And more and more MMORPGs out there are finding that players seem to prefer smaller dungeons rather than huge mega-raids.
In any case, CoH is still the paragon of team content and has been so long before iTrials were added.
Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"
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We are Introvertus of Borg?
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
Stupid original post, stupid original poster. Stop talking about yourself saying "we", you are not royalty. Introverts aren't a borg-like association of individuals sharing a common mind; by their very definition they aren't!
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Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
To the op: I've been a casual player for 6+ years and this is the only game that I have kept coming back to for longer than 3 weeks. I have also been frustrated at times with the Incaranate system (I haven't even tried the last 3 Trials yet) but I belive you have nothing to worry about. There have been many threads calling for a better solo Incarnate path (not just grinding or farming) and the devs have paid attention to them and responded to them and i22 is their answer.
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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
all content in the game is optional
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Why yes! Yes it is!
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Like I said. Nerf pistols at 10 paces man. |
Originally Posted by TonyV
Hell, even Hyperstrike I like enough to still want to room with at the spring Pummit. Part of me thinks it would be kind of fun and cathartic to yell at each other in person instead of all of this typing back and forth; at least we could finish the fight by having a beer or something.
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Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
*head scratch*
I didn't know introverted or extroverted had anything to do with playing a video game. Seriously, who are you interacting with? Personally, I think there's a fair chance you're all imaginary, so I feel no angst about teaming or solo'ing. I prefer teaming, and I love me a good iTrial (though, SLAM's are dumb).
*shrug*
Devs did it perfect with the new DA. Go Devs.
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What still bothers me is that they needed to be told. It still seems like it came as a huge shock to them that not everyone wanted massive cluster ***** for new content.
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Originally Posted by _Klaw_
To the op: I've been a casual player for 6+ years and this is the only game that I have kept coming back to for longer than 3 weeks. I have also been frustrated at times with the Incaranate system (I haven't even tried the last 3 Trials yet) but I belive you have nothing to worry about. There have been many threads calling for a better solo Incarnate path (not just grinding or farming) and the devs have paid attention to them and responded to them and i22 is their answer.
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I would NOT simply say that those speaking against forced teaming content are introverts. People don't just want to avoid league-only content because they are uncomfortable with a more extroverted style. As mentioned earlier, I'm an introvert and have no problems from that end. (Though others may, not judging them on that count)|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Introverted technically isn't the same thing as incapable of being civil, either, but you wouldn't know it from these threads.
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The issue that comes up from forced teaming goes beyond just introversion, and I think that's why more people are speaking up against the trial model is that forced teaming has more problems than just 'you have to be with people.'
- Forced large scale teaming content means you have to rely on others, and the pick up nature means you can have unreliable people that work against the team either by ignorance or stubbornness. The larger the group you have to work with, the higher the chance of this coming up.
- Forced large scale teaming is far more limited in opportunity...except on maybe two or three servers at best, there aren't trials being formed most of the day. So you can't make progress until more players who will cooperate log on, usually at specific times more in evenings.
- Force large-scale teaming means you have to go by body count, NOT person. Do you want to do something? You aren't grabbing a new person because you WANT to play with them, you grab them because the game says you have to have another body.
Are there positives? Yes. I have met new people who are fun through leagues. I do enjoy the mass silly chaos of leagues. But if it's the only option, it doesn't work with many schedules and can be a pain when folks you don't want to play with still have to be on your team.
I do hope people here can be more civil here, too many folks are throwing personal jabs on both sides for valid points to be heard. Ad hominem doesn't make people listen, it makes them angry.
I agree with you, OP.
I'm hopeful for what Issue 22 will bring.
On Liberty:
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Hello everyone,
Please keep this thread civil, on-topic, and free of personal attacks and diatribes. These do not contribute to the discussion in a meaningful way, and only serve to derail the thread.
Thank you for understanding,
~Mod13
I am not sure that the issue is one of solo vs. anything else. People who dislike large groups of strangers are often happy to team with a small group of friends.
Am not sure where the "YOU DARN SOLO-INSISTING PEOPLE!!" came from with this thread.
The people I know (who are not representative of anything but, well, the people I know) who dislike the Raids, are people who love to with friends. The reason some of them play the game is to meet new people, to socialize with with the ones they already know. They don't care what level anyone is on the team, and they don't (much) care if the team is a great one. They are there to meet with friends. They loathe I-Trials. They can't have the social teaming they enjoy.
Others enjoy small teams with friends, as well as soloing. They don't feel heroic on a big steamrolling team. They don't enjoy playing with strangers, even though meeting one or two is often a nice thing. These people hate the I-Trials.
I don't know a lot of RP-ers, but the ones I do know, enjoy RP teams a lot. That's why they're here, it's a place to play a game, and to RP that game. THEY hate the I-Trials.
Personally, I LOVE teaming! I love teaming with friends, I love teaming on PuG's, too! I like meeting new people, and seeing how a bunch of strangers can really mesh their particular powers. My favorite kind of teaming is TF's. I thought the WST as a path to incarnate powers was brilliant! (I really wish they would allow Emp. Merits be a reward option, personally)
So, while the OP has his/her reasons for disliking the current changes in game focus, a lot of people are feeling that very same way. Excluded. Though I don't believe in any way this was the devs intent, I DO believe that if they say "the only way your character can progress in the game is if you do I-Trials", then what many, MANY different groups of people who have found a home here, only hear is: "we don't want you here."
This saddens me no end.
I'm an introvert but I enjoy teaming. I much prefer to passively acquire a team, though. I like to set my search flag to Looking For Any/Missions/etc. and wait for a tell/invite. Or to put myself in the LFG queue and hope that there are other people using it the way it really ought to be used so that I fall into a team.
I also post a fair amount here. The internet provides a social buffer that allows me to interact on an impersonal enough level to socialise far more comfortably than real life allows, and thus I'm a bit less avoidant.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound