CoH: a game for Introverts, too


Ad Astra

 

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Its not my place to tell players not to fight to change that, but I have no problem saying that attempting to do so in either direction is a waste of time.
See.. This statement makes perfect sense to me and I accept it without reservation. We are getting a solo path to incarnate abilities... quite a bit sooner than I ever expected it. Yes, there will be continued discussions about the fairness of that system, but we've always discussed what's fair around here.

My confusion comes in, and I touched on this earlier hoping you'd have an explanation, when the developers provide a solution to a desire while stating that they won't be changing the game to accommodate a request.

Can you tell me what the difference is between an offline SG invite to my own account and me using a free account to accomplish the same goal beyond the hard drive space used for that free account?

Can you tell me what the difference is between removing minimum team size requirements and allowing me to solo a TF as long as I have one other account on the "team" but logged off as soon as I accepted the TF from the contact?

Should these workarounds be considered exploits?


Be well, people of CoH.

 

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Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
Ah, okay. I didn't realize they were solely solo. So that's one thing; anything else?
No, I'm pretty sure that's it and that it was done to ensure morality choices weren't forced upon conflicting teammates during key story lines.

If someone could clarify something for me, what is the point of team gating?

If content is set to have a minimum that under normal circumstances would require a team why does it also need to have a minimum team to start?

Is there some risk that people would stop playing if they went somewhere labeled "Designed for a minimum of [2,4,8,16,32,...]" and couldn't solo it?

Does it encourage exploitation?

I'm really at a loss why such a system exists in any game that isn't trying to balance players vs players scenarios.


 

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Lisar,

As it has been explained to me over the years, the reason behind the minimum team size requirement is to stop complaints of "this was impossible to solo" before they could ever begin.

Edit: Or the other option often repeated in this very thread: "It's an MMO, you're supposed to team."


Be well, people of CoH.

 

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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba View Post
Can you tell me what the difference is between an offline SG invite to my own account and me using a free account to accomplish the same goal beyond the hard drive space used for that free account?

Can you tell me what the difference is between removing minimum team size requirements and allowing me to solo a TF as long as I have one other account on the "team" but logged off as soon as I accepted the TF from the contact?
Sure. In both cases actively enabling players to do either thing sets the precedent, correctly or falsely, that the devs support both. It creates openings for players to complain about any other aspect of that feature, or related features. If players discover workarounds, that doesn't change the fact that no one can legitimately use the existence of a workaround as proof the devs actually support the behavior.

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Should these workarounds be considered exploits?
They should be considered the compromises that have to exist in an imperfect world.

When the current difficulty sliders were being created, I was asked my opinion of them. I specifically asked what the intent of the sliders was. The answer, which I expected, was that they were intended to be QoL gameplay improvements. I told the devs explicitly that there would be players that said they were proof the devs approve of farming, because the sliders could be used for farming and made farming more convenient by eliminating the need for fillers. What I was told was that they knew that, but they were willing to accept the fact that some people thought that in order to add the feature for its intended purpose, which was to allow people to scale difficulty up and down to suit their playstyle. If it was used to optimize reward earning, that was a price they were willing to pay, not an intended feature. Conversely, they didn't think that using it in that way, while not intended, was a serious enough problem to warrant taking direct preventative action.

Upon thousands of such compromising design decisions is this game built upon. Sometimes, Positron is like Batman: he won't kill you, but he doesn't feel he has to save you either.


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Different strokes for different folks.

I have an extremely hectic job running as system admin for 700+ people spread over 18 sites.

My friends all know I never check personal emails, because at work I live and die on my response time to support problems. So some nights when I play - I just want to unwind. I want no drama, I want to be told a story and so I limp along doing a story arc. I say no to teams and just - relax.

Other days I am full of energy and happily lead TFs. I will search for exploits.....err find the limits of what the game allows. In short I am up for anything.

So my personal take on the recent push for large raids and teaming to receive gated rewards is mostly negative. I feel much like BZB in that I like to see what effect I am having on the fight and can I get more control, damage or chaos by changing what I do?

I did a 2nd Respec trial last night and the team was full of crazy people. We opened every single door and aggro'd all the freaks in the Terra Volta lab room at once. We had 25+ freak tanks running around. I was on my sonic/Ice blaster and was just throwing any of them that got near a squishie all over the place. It was glorious chaos. I was laughing so hard I was nearly crying.

So I like teaming - when - I - want it.


 

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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades View Post
I have an extremely hectic job running as system admin for 700+ people spread over 18 sites.
You should form a league.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
You should form a league.
I'm sure if CoH were to write him a nice paycheck at his going rate, he would be happy to.


 

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I'm an introvert also. Between the Aspergers and moderate to rarely severe anxiety, CoH actually has been great for me. I can solo or team but I don't feel the pressures that society puts on everyone in a setting outside of this game. Of course, there is pressures on teaming but I really don't mind doing Trials like BAF, etc... I stay relatively quiet and do my job. Reap the reward(s) and move on.

Thankfully with enough RL help to control and understand better the certain parts needing worked with me, I'm tolerating RL more. But back on subject, I'm content with how CoH is. That's just me of course but for others, I can see why it's more difficult so I feel for you.


This space is intentionally left blank.

 

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Thanks, A.


Be well, people of CoH.

 

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Originally Posted by TonyV View Post
But every time one of these threads comes along, there is a small contingent of people--and they're the same ones every time--who insist that the game MUST cater to their play style, a solo-only play style that most people do not adopt and which is not conducive to the genre of game City of Heroes is.
Find me one person who has insisted that the game be solo-only and not just soloable.

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In Tony's ideal world, a majority of the game, probably 75% or so, would be accessible to everyone with multiple ways to get rewards.
And there go approximately 25% of your profits.

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For one thing, people might engage in parts of the game that they didn't think would be fun, but it turns out they are.
So, never assume that you know your customers tastes and wants better than they do just because you're so smart and wise. Unless this came as the result of actual market research, which it didn't, you're just telling everyone else that you know what's best for them. I'm pretty sure people can figure out the concept of "if I try grouping, I might turn out to like it" all by themselves. Besides which, my first group in CoX came from needing help on soloable content, whereas my first forced grouping experience reminded my why they're such a bad idea in the first place: It took almost as long to form the group as to run the trial, and I play on Virtue!

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Also, if you're a player who really enjoys aspect X of the game, there will be a lot more people who are doing X than would be if if there were just some easier way to get the same rewards than by doing X.
Guild Wars has things called Xaishen Rewards (may have got the spelling wrong). Every day there's a special reward for completing a specific PvE mission, a specific PvP event, and...Some other third thing, I forget. This works really, really well in making large teams readily available for this content when it otherwise would be, even though it is still possible to solo everything (hypothetically, at least, Guild Wars soloists rely on NPC henchmen or heroes, and this late in the game's life they're often inferior to another player who's likely been around for at least a year).

CoX already has weekly strike targets, and if those aren't doing the job already then something's wrong with the game's reward scheme.

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Also, it makes things easier on the developers. How? With people engaging in a lot of different aspects of the game, it obviates or alleviates the need to put so many cooldowns or other obstacles in the game, and the ones that exist are much less apparent and painful to a well-rounded player base.
I see absolutely no variety of cooldown that would not still be necessary if the game were simultaneously 100% soloable and 100% groupable.


 

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Originally Posted by RuthlessSamael View Post
Find me one person who has insisted that the game be solo-only and not just soloable.
Tony is asserting that some people believe the entire game must be accessible to someone who solos only, not that the entire game must contain nothing but solo-exclusive content.

Under that criteria, there are lots of people who believe either that the entire game should be accessible to solo-only players, or that all possible rewards must be accessible through content explicitly designed to be soloable.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Tony is asserting that some people believe the entire game must be accessible to someone who solos only, not that the entire game must contain nothing but solo-exclusive content.

Under that criteria, there are lots of people who believe either that the entire game should be accessible to solo-only players, or that all possible rewards must be accessible through content explicitly designed to be soloable.
If that's what he meant, why would he say "solo only play style", given that those words in no way imply anything you just said?


 

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Originally Posted by rsclark View Post
If that's what he meant, why would he say "solo only play style", given that those words in no way imply anything you just said?
"Catering to a solo-only playstyle" explicitly says the game should allow people who only wish to solo to have access to everything, it does not say the game must contain content that can only be played solo.

I haven't seen anyone brave enough and crazy enough to espouse the belief that the game should specifically contain only content that requires being solo to play it.


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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth View Post
The trouble with the argument against forced teaming for incarnate stuff is that if all incarnate stuff is teaming, there is no need to get it if you don't team.
WRONG! If all that was gated behind incarnate content was incarnate powers my attitude would be "no problem, have fun people who enjoy the trials". However, the devs then decided to gate things that have absolutely nothing to do with incarnate powers or things you can only use on the trials behind the content.

There are costumes, emotes and a couple other things locked behind running the trials. I'm all for team-only content even if I'm not likely to be able to play it because anything that expands who the game will appeal to is a good thing. However, people do not take well when the rule of the game for the last several years has been giving players multiple ways to gain access to items available in the game suddenly being told "we're going to gate certain items behind a single, specific play style". Even PvP IOs can be gained by means other than PvPing, Purples can be gained without farming, so you can't expect us to just shut up and be ok with this.


@Doctor Gemini

Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.

 

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I'm an introvert as well. I'm actually terrible with people. There's a medical reason for that, but I don't want to go into it. I'm fine, but I want to keep it to myself as to why. I'll leave it at that.

I don't agree with Software being akin to medicine, a product wholly owned by the creator of it, with specific proscribed uses and any deviation of that resulting in adverse side effects (if not criminal charges or quite simply death.)

I consider licensed software closer to a tool you don't own. You're borrowing a socket set from your older brother to work on your bicycle. The Garage Door to get your bicycle hasn't been opened for a while and it's got sand in the tracks. So you grab the longest, thickest wrench you have in the set, wedge it under the door and carefully use it as a lever to open the door. Luckily, the wheels give and start moving, lifting the door.

As long as you have permission in the first place to use the software, if it's useful for another purpose (and you're careful to avoid certain foreseeable consequences, like bending the bottom panel of the garage door so it doesn't close evenly, or break the wrench itself) then there's nothing wrong with your 'unintended use' of the given tools.

City of Heroes could crack down on Vidiot Maps for making a modification of the client, but they don't. Paragon Studios could grow a wild hair up a lower orifice (pick one) about Titan Network's existence, and decide to change their client to lock out Sentinel completely and make future client fixes to reinforce their exile, but they haven't. Whoever is the General Manager these days (Brian Clayton, unless I'm mistaken) could have an all-hands meeting to discuss Freedom being designed around queues for Trials, Raids and Task Forces only, dropping all missions, newspapers, radios and contacts from the game... then put in a draconian timer for 1 hour which players must find a team to run a TF/Raid/Trial, chat in a channel with no emotes or avatars (just a queue, like on Quake Tournament) or get kicked for 24 hours for not getting on a team (you know, to remove solo players completely from the equation). But they haven't.

I'm an Introvert. I play alone a LOT. Mostly from my own proclivities, secondly because I'm not a min-max kind of guy. Partly from being not interested in the Incarnate system. That limits my teaming to: anyone in the Sewers, friends who hop on for certain needs on teams through Ventrilo (which is mostly done for the year because the Holidays are over, other galactic MMOs, and it's not Summer yet) or in the case of tonight, a Triumph Watch message told me of a Mothership Raid from a ex-City Scoop Chief of Staff who I teamed with a lot in 2008 but doesn't remember me (which is fine, I wouldn't remember me either if I was him.) I do team, but I love the game for the fact that I don't HAVE to. and you don't have to team with people like me. I agree wholly with Generic Past above, there are many shards, many zones, and many mission doors. If you don't want to team with people like me, as soon as figure it out, leave at the end of the current mission/TF and leave a Note on my global name to avoid me in the future. Take the team with you, or get bold and kick me from the team with no explanation. Or Global Ignore me. You have the tools to fix this yourself if you like.

And until a higher up from Paragon Studios says that they're throwing RP'ers, Soloists and non-Incarnate players under the bus on the next issue, it's unfair to insinuate that recent design choices mean their intent. There's a difference between being forgotten (which is fine... that's what "QOL" issues are for, and the "Leets only or GTFO" types will lament it's release until the next issue neglects us edge-cases once more)... and being marginalized. I'll wait until Melissa Bianco, Matt Miller, or whoever's at the Programming "Turntables" this year gets on the mic and says "Alright, Soloists, RPers, and anyone who was in Icon all night, time to go home, the rest of the night's for teams only. Repeat, TEAMS ONLY."

But they haven't said that yet. And I don't remember them saying "we don't want players to run solo" anywhere. I do know they prefer players to TEAM, you know, being an MMO and all. And that's fine if they design parts to make missions easier with teams than on solo players. I'll just do other things as long as they're there.

Or until they actually say "if you solo, get lost" in a press conference or on this site. But if it's all the same to you, I'll wait for them to say it. If it's not, don't talk to me. It's pretty simple.


 

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I'm somewhat introverted but that's not why I prefer the solo path. It's because virtually every time I have tried a taskforce or raid I get to experience almost none of it. I swear, 99% of the people in this game are determined to do everything as fast as they can and ignore even the slightest trace of story line.

I feel like I'm watching a dvd with people who insist on playing the movie in fast forward because normal speed takes too long. And if they have already experienced it even once then they keep pushing the fast forward button until the movie is playing at maximum speed. Then two minutes later when the movie is over they say "Wow that was great. Want to watch it again?"


Don't count your weasels before they pop dink!

 

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I can see that for content I'm playing through the first time (I want to read stuff when the rest of the team is bickering that the timer for the Gold Badge is running out), but all the same there are plenty out there that agree with you.


 

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Originally Posted by _eeek_ View Post
[lots of good stuff]
Honestly (no hyperbole), I know a quite a few very long-time players who are logging on less and less
I'm one of those. Right now, I only play on designated weekly supergroup event days (Mondays and Thursdays), and I don't feel like logging on more than that.

Thanks for expressing how I feel.


Still @Shadow Kitty

"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"

 

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Originally Posted by _eeek_ View Post
Honestly (no hyperbole), I know a quite a few very long-time players who are logging on less and less, and some who seem to have left entirely within the last couple of months. None of the ones I know are soloists. What I hear is that the game is for Powergamers now. Or that it's become a Raid game. There is no place for them, or how they play. Some say they'll be back at I22, to see if it's worth it renewing their subscription. Each of them is looking for a new MMO to call home.

I just wanted you to understand.
Sadly I'm starting to feel this way myself, specifically the bolded part. Seems like every single team I get these days, when I'm lucky enough to get one, feels like I've joined a PL team from back in the day, at all level ranges. That I'm just a bridge along for the ride. More of an issue with 50's plowing through level 20 tips like the flash.
Those teams... Just aren't fun.
Yeah we blaze through, yeah we never die, yeah I feel more like an anchor than a Hero. Seems like, these days, every team is now a PL team by default. Gotta get to 50 to start the long grind for I-Bits.

I miss feeling like my being there mattered. These days most teams all have at least one guy that could solo every map easily, thus the rest of the team spends the whole time trying to keep up and rolling in XP.

I joined one 'sit at the door and level' team back around issue 9. After 15 minutes of sitting there watching the 30's flyby I felt so dirty I had to quit and get the toon some debt. I never forgot how wrong it felt to be teaming with someone that didn't need the team for anything other than padding the mob count.

Sadly, that's how most all teams feel these days, at least to me.


Maestro Mavius - Infinity
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Keep Calm & Chive On!

 

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I have no problem with the game catering to introverts. I do have a problem when they demand the same rewards as group content.

Solo trials at a slower (read: easier) pace? No problem, but you'll have to be content with a slower rate of advancement. Leadership, organization, skill and efficiency should be rewarded, and that's only being fair.


 

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Originally Posted by Laevateinn View Post
Solo trials at a slower (read: easier) pace? No problem, but you'll have to be content with a slower rate of advancement. Leadership, organization, skill and efficiency should be rewarded, and that's only being fair.
I just fail to see why idling in a corner should reward you for your leadership and organizational skills.

And I don't understand why they had to invent a raid mechanic when our normal team size is already practically the size of a raid in other games. Normal teams work perfectly fine, and your contribution on them actually matters. If Incarnate content had been team focused, I might actually want to play through it.


Thought for the day:

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."

=][=

 

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Originally Posted by Slaunyeh View Post
I just fail to see why idling in a corner should reward you for your leadership and organizational skills.
That's been my experience of most PuGs these days. Once upon a time, I complained that PuG players were incompetent (and they were), but these days it seems like all that's left is hyper-efficient veterans with builds ten times better than mine and all the strategies down pat to the point where I feel like my presence on the team is irrelevant. Yeah, I hit stuff, occasionally, but if I walked off the computer, no-one would notice I'm missing. And THAT, more than anything else, is what sours my teaming experience when I do team.

I want to share a tangent with you - I like being a unique snowflake. I've actually taken a great liking to the Rifleman's Creed, or at least a generalised adaptation of it. In my head, it goes something like: "This is my <blank>. There are many like it, but this one's mine." Supplant what you will in there, it's open-ended enough to handle most anything, and I do apologise to the Riflemen from whom I stole it.

My point in bringing this up is that when I play, I want to feel like I matter, like I bring something to the game which would be lost in my absence. I don't have to be better than anyone else, I don't have to be special and unique from anyone else and I don't even need to be appreciated for it, so long as I know I'm doing something meaningful. This is my story. There are many like it, but this one's mine.

The trouble is that the larger the team becomes, the less evident any individual member's influence gets, drowned out in the sea of effects and overwhelming numbers. Honestly, even if I had all the facilities in the world to be on large teams constantly, I still wouldn't. Like Z from AntZ, it makes me feel... Insignificant. I'd honestly much rather have smaller teams doing easier stuff than bigger teams doing harder stuff because the smaller the team is, the more each member has to contribute, and the more evident it is who's doing what.

I don't want to play a Rorschach test of trying to peer through a hundred stacked effects to maybe comprehend what I'm fighting. This reduces my perception down to what's directly in front of my face and causes me to play a game of clicking circles and attacking a reticle. I don't want to engage in one giant mosh put where no-one can tell what's going on at ground level and has to resort to the overall strategic picture, instead. I want a more personal experience that I can comprehend and follow, and large teams have almost NEVER allowed me to have that.

---

I've told this story a thousand times, but one of my most memorable teaming experiences was a TF of four people, on which my Brute constituted the ONLY source of damage, with the rest of the team being control and support (and plenty AFK). I don't remember it because I felt "better" than the others. I remember it because I did something which mattered.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Laevateinn View Post
I have no problem with the game catering to introverts. I do have a problem when they demand the same rewards as group content.

Solo trials at a slower (read: easier) pace? No problem, but you'll have to be content with a slower rate of advancement. Leadership, organization, skill and efficiency should be rewarded, and that's only being fair.
But that isn't what the thread is about.

We are discussing how a lot of people feel alienated by the apparent change of game focus. In fact, what's being said by many is rather the exact opposite of your stated belief. Many are saying that the "leadership, organization, skill and efficiency" required to steamroll content, or manage enormous groups, are not things they value.

I don't think anyone is demanding "cater to me, dammit!" They may, however, be asking "why is the game suddenly only catering to you?"

An oversimplification, of course, but was trying for brevity over further long-winded explanations. If understanding the issues being discussed matters to you, you can read the previous posts, which do a much better job of it than I do.


 

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Originally Posted by _eeek_ View Post
They may, however, be asking "why is the game suddenly only catering to you?"
This has been a common complaint, though, since May 2004.

Remember when villains got Mayhem missions and all sorts of new shinies? I can't tell you the number of threads of, "Why are you catering only to villains?" Then we got Safeguards and some more hero-side content. "Why do you hate villains?"

Remember when CoV hit and there were a bunch of badges added in PvP zones, along with perks such as Shivans and nukes? "Why are you catering only to PvPers?" Then they changed some of the PvP rules to level the playing field and make it easier for newcomers. "Why do you hate PvPers?"

Remember when a bunch of missions were nerfed with timers and such and we had to tolerate the litany of "Why do you hate farmers?" And then they modified the difficulty system and introduced Wentworth's, and we started getting the litany of "Why are you catering only to farmers?" threads.

So anyone who leaves the game because they're asking, "Why are you catering only to X?", no matter what X is, is being pretty short-sighted. I understand getting caught up in the moment and imagining that Positron is sitting on his jewel-encrusted velvet padded throne saying things like, "You know, I'm going to impose my will for people to team on the player base, and to hell with soloers! BWAH HAH HAH HAH HAH!!!"

But as funny as that image is, it's really not happening. It's not now, it never has been. "Some of this new stuff wasn't made for my particular play style" != "The devs are only catering to players who are X."

Simple example: Although changes since Issue 19 are so heavily griped about for being so geared towards teaming, the following were also added:
  • Merged Yellow and Green line monorails (QoL feature).
  • Access to Praetoria by non-Praetorians (happy badgers).
  • New exploration badges added to hazard zones (happy badges).
  • Roy Cooling and Vincent Ross story arcs (solo-friendly).
  • Additional tip and morality missions (solo-friendly)
  • Message Man and Clockwork A76-293 contacts added to Praetoria (solo-friendly)
  • New maps, enemy groups, and powersets added to Architect Entertainment (solo-friendly, AE writers happy)
  • Inherent Fitness (VERY solo-friendly)
  • Additional power animations (QoL feature)
  • Black Helicopter line expanded in Rogue Isles (QoL feature)
  • Group area buffs (Speed Boost, Inertial Reduction, Insulation Shield, Sonic Barrier, etc.) (QoL feature)
  • First Ward zone added (solo-friendly)
  • Beam Rifle powerset added (solo-friendly)
  • Street Justice powerset added (solo-friendly)
  • Time Manipulation powerset added (solo-friendly)
  • Titan Weapons powerset added (solo-friendly)
  • Galaxy City destroyed, new tutorial added (solo-friendly, story progression)
  • IDF and Defense costume sets added, as well as a crapton of new costume pieces in the Paragon Store (QoL feature)
  • New fifth-level travel powers added to travel power pools (solo-friendly)
  • Character creator interface revamp (QoL feature)
  • LOTS of powerset proliferation (solo-friendly)
  • Additional tailors added (QoL feature)
  • Ouroboros available at level 14 instead of 25 (solo-friendly)
  • Veteran Reward program replaced by Paragon Rewards program--can get rewards as soon as you're willing to pay for, and you have a lot more choice in when you get what perks (QoL feature, solo-friendly)
  • Circle of Thorns makeover (QoL feature)
  • Exalted server added (QoL feature)
  • Crapton of perks and powers added to Paragon Store, such as rocket board, coyote transformation, magic carpet, pets, etc. (QoL feature, solo-friendly)
  • Oh yeah, and if you don't have any money, you can PLAY FOR FREE now

...And probably a lot of stuff that I'm forgetting.

So in spite of people getting all indignant that the devs are changing the game to some awful monstrosity that doesn't resemble their cherished game of the past, they're just not seeing the forest for the trees. Yes, there was a bunch of team-oriented content added. Yes, the past few issues have included a lot of Incarnate and endgame content.

But the game has always been, and will continue to be, solo-friendly. I don't know how anyone can look at that list of features, some of which are VERY development-intensive, and think, "the devs don't care about anyone who doesn't want to team up and grind Incarnate content."


We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)