CoH: a game for Introverts, too
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2012-02-06 24:07 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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To me, if there's time to stand around and chat, that means I'm not playing the game.|
Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
Yes: take a break and chat and be social. Which is one of the greatest advantages of a team according to team Teams, since soloists apparently are introvert types that don't chat.
The problem is that iTrials are hectic. There's always a timer going. Always something that you have to rush to and defeat. Hurryhurryhurry! |
I chat plenty in CoH, but I do it while waiting on things to start or while in my own (solo) missions chatting with people who are all doing their own things. If we're chatting as a team while there's no reason we couldn't be fighting, IMO we're doing it wrong. I have IRC and facebook and Skype to chat with people outside of game. I'm not here for a chat client with 3D avatars. I'm hear to beat stuff up. Anything that has lots of action is good with me.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
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Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
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Unconscious players *and* half of one player would be at least 1.5 players, and that probably qualifies as forced teaming.
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Unconscious players and half of one player or unconscious players and/or half of one player?
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Quote:
How can you tell if the bottom half of a player is unconscious?|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I know a particular trial player who might represent the bottom half of one unconscious player... >.>
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On second thought, nevermind.
I said nevermind. Nevermind nevermind nevermind lalalalalalala I can't hear you.
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Quote:
The ability to have your character be important by increasing the difficulty to the point where failure is possible vs not wanting to make it so hard as to drive people away?|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The difficulty slider has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
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That sounds like exactly what you were talking about in that post.
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You are missing the point entirely. Those other games aren't moving towards some idea point - at least not intentionally. They are moving away from something that wasn't working. Those 20+ man raids aren't getting enough players involved in them to justify the effort that goes into making them, so people aren't making them any more.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The only way we could have followed the trend of making content that required less hardcore play and less numbers of players was for the developers to start making content that could be played by unconscious players and half of one player.
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That's why it's strange that this game is putting the effort into making them. Given the history of this game, I find it hard to believe that this game has a higher percentage of people who want to do that stuff when other games have been trying to pull those people in for years.. If it's not worth it for other games to produce this type of content, what makes this game special?
And, really, it seems pretty clear that it isn't worth it in this game any more than it's worth it in the others. If it was worth it to produce and there was this hidden demographic that desired that content, then the DA revamp wouldn't need such abysmal rewards to (effectively) bribe people into playing the raids.
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Each to their own, I guess. If I were to beat stuff up, I would probably be playing BlazBlue or SoulCalibur or something like that.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I'm not here for a chat client with 3D avatars. I'm hear to beat stuff up. Anything that has lots of action is good with me.
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But as long as you're happy, I won't stop you. I just think that it's a pity that there is an entire feature that, unlike regular missions, does not allow for both our playstyles. And I think it's curious that the "but MMOs are social, therefore big teams" card is played as an advantage of iTrials, when they clearly aren't.
Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"
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Well if that was what I was talking about then there should be no problem at all. The next time someone feels they are being made redundant in content, just tell them to increase their difficulty slider.
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Originally Posted by rsclark
The ability to have your character be important by increasing the difficulty to the point where failure is possible vs not wanting to make it so hard as to drive people away?
That sounds like exactly what you were talking about in that post. |
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I get the point. I believe it to be false.
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Originally Posted by rsclark
You are missing the point entirely.
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For what it's worth, I have never tried to play that card. There are things I don't like about iTrials, but the inability to socialize at them is not one of them. I agree that they're not social. Getting 20 people on a team together is not particularly social, IMO.|
Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
And I think it's curious that the "but MMOs are social, therefore big teams" card is played as an advantage of iTrials, when they clearly aren't.
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You may not have context for this, but to me this is like the old Hamidon raid and the I9 version. In the old one, most people huddled together and followed one player who targeted yellow Mitos. They usually all had ranged attacks on auto, and so were free to chat away while their characters moved and fired automatically. In the new one, there's little time for that, as there are different teams for different foes, autofollow isn't always smart, and most people really need to be rapidly chaining multiple powers. There's not much time for chatter in the new one. Because of that, some people preferred the old one, even though we weren't really playing at all for most of it. I vastly prefer the new one, because we're all racing around doing lots of stuff as fast as we can.
As an aside, it might interest you to know that, prior to iTrials, most of my play time was spent solo. I've "incarnated" all my 50s as much as I want to (and probably much more than is typical) and am back to leveling a new character to 50 ... solo. I do have a circle of in-game friends and acquaintances I chat with daily, but when we get in a mission together, we move like the wind. We chat, but not as much as when we're all off doing our own things.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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No, not you, but others. *no names mentioned*
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
For what it's worth, I have never tried to play that card.
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Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"
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The biggest place to complain about being redundant is in Itrials. No where else in the game does a player matter less than in an itrial.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Well if that was what I was talking about then there should be no problem at all. The next time someone feels they are being made redundant in content, just tell them to increase their difficulty slider.
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Which part? The easily observable fact that games are moving in the direction of less large group content or the easily surmised idea that a game never known for large group content might have fewer people who enjoy it than other games that have always provided that form of content?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I get the point. I believe it to be false.
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Forced Teaming...
It can happen to you!
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Forced teaming demands a high server population. Remember that there are times when I cannot play the game I want to on Virtue, one of the most densely populated servers we have. Telling me to wait until later to play a game I am paying for means that I will stop paying for the game, but that's not really the half of it.
Less densely populated servers are going to find it increasingly difficult to form teams for these massive raids as the novelty wears off and they are sustained primarily by alts. That's going to lock less densely populated servers out of chunks of content because it turns out that 24 is a lot of people, and then there is actually going to be a legitimate reason for there to be a server merge. Server merges, for reasons noted every time that stupid idea is brought up, murder MMOs. Any decision that makes a future server merge look like a potentially good alternative to leaving things as they are is a catastrophically bad decision.
This isn't ultimately a choice between occasional forced teaming and 100% soloable content, this is a choice between 100% soloable content and chunks of the game becoming permanently unplayable.
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That this is a game for introverts? I'm beginning to think it is false too. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I get the point. I believe it to be false.
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And I'm beginning to think either I'm on a lot of people's ignore lists, or I'm the worst forum participant in this whole community. (Keep repeating to yourself: Don't feed the troll, don't feed the troll.)
Your suspicions are mostly correct as well reading this conversation. I'm nothing spectacular in real life either. Every bit the loser anyone thinks I am.
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You need to be more extroverted and interact with people. Even the pantsless need friends.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
How can you tell if the bottom half of a player is unconscious?
On second thought, nevermind. I said nevermind. Nevermind nevermind nevermind lalalalalalala I can't hear you. |
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I would venture the pantless nead pants (and a belt) more than friends. Unless they are a politician and then all's fair, I guess...
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Originally Posted by Ironik
You need to be more extroverted and interact with people. Even the pantsless need friends.
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Both.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
Which part? The easily observable fact that games are moving in the direction of less large group content or the easily surmised idea that a game never known for large group content might have fewer people who enjoy it than other games that have always provided that form of content?
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The fact that MMOs are directing more resources towards improving their solo player and small-team player experiences is not tantamount to saying they are moving away from actually *having* large-scale content. Because as I said, they already have it. When they start eliminating it completely, then your point would be supported by the facts exclusive of the more simpler and logical conclusion, which is that most MMOs are softening their teaming requirements. To focus on one thing is not to specifically repudiate the other things.
This false dichotomy also plagues the playerbase in other ways. Making content for level 30-39 is obvious evidence the devs are abandoning the higher levels. And the lower levels. Incarnate trials are obvious evidence the devs are abandoning the standard game (even though the evidence is overwhelmingly the opposite). The Praetorian storyline is obvious evidence that the devs are abandoning everything except Praetorians. The store items are obvious evidence that the devs are abandoning the base subscription game.
The threshold of evidence a lot of people is lower than rational functionality mandates as a minimum, actually.
Also, a game that traditionally had no large-team content may have less people that enjoy it, but that would be irrelevant to the question of whether that means there's an appropriate amount of it. It is also equally logical to state that its obviously true any game with very little such content would be underserving the players that enjoy it.
In both cases, your point is that your conclusions are obvious given the facts, but they fail to distinguish themselves from equally likely and much simpler and direct conclusions. They require inventing motivation that cannot be discerned from the evidence.
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Quote:
Its not a game for extroverts either.|
Originally Posted by Tahquitz
That this is a game for introverts? I'm beginning to think it is false too.
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Its always been a game mostly for people without extreme demands or requirements; specifically for people willing to accept the devs will strive to compromise between different player types that want different experiences, including experiences that exclude your preferences specifically, and in a way impossible to work around.
To put it more simply and more bluntly, this game has always been for people who want X and are willing to wait, its explicitly not for people who absolutely cannot stand Y and refuse to play any game with Y. If you are the type of person who draws lines in the sand, the devs will eventually walk right over it, its only a matter of time. In doing so, they will be adding something someone else really wanted, and given a choice between giving some players what they want or avoiding adding things others can't stand, the former almost always win over the latter.
I cannot think of very many instances where the reverse was true, from launch to now.
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Oh, this conversation again.
I think the biggest puzzle to me is why it bothers some people so much that others like to solo. They seem to think that by playing alone, I am somehow 'stealing' a teammate from someone. They don't seem to realize that for me, the option isn't solo vs. team, it is solo vs. not play.
I mean, I do understand the reasons for the existence of taskforces and trails, and that I need to team for those to get the badges. I don't begrudge that, but those are purely one-and-done experiences. There has only been one team event I've ever enjoyed, and that was Katie. That was because it was short and sweet, and didn't leave me spending hours wishing I could strangle various players with my bare hands, or praying my motion-sickness didn't trigger.
But raiding is, well... ugh. I've done one I-trial, and I've never gone back. Not because, as some people have implied, I need non-stop ecstasy in my gameplay. Or because I somehow enjoy depriving other people of someone to team with. Or most insultingly, because I'm afriad 'if I did it more I might decide I liked it'. I know perfectly well what feels like entertainment and what is a foretaste of hell, thank you very much. I don't need other people to decide what I should find fun.
"Home is where, when you have to go there, they have to let you in."
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Oh, this strawman again. No one is bothered that some people like to solo.
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Originally Posted by Remidi
I think the biggest puzzle to me is why it bothers some people so much that others like to solo.
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We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
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Oh, I would not say that. Given some of the proposals I've seen on these forums over the years, I'd say that any ridiculous proposition you can imagine has likely been suggested and promoted at some point. I wish I could recall specifics, but there have been heated debates over whether people should be able to solo or not and calls to nerf particular ATs to make teaming mandatory.
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Originally Posted by TonyV
Oh, this strawman again. No one is bothered that some people like to solo.
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Well, it obviously bothers you, since every time the subject of solo options for content comes up, you appear with your usually line of "MMORPGS mean teaming". |
Originally Posted by TonyV
Oh, this strawman again. No one is bothered that some people like to solo.
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What exactly is it about me playing alone and enjoying myself - for an experience I'm *paying* to have - instead of being dragged though hour after miserable hour of teaming that you find so game destroying? You made your sneering reference to 'Boring Town', well by contrast your vision of the game, PUG Hell, would have me dropping out in a heartbeat. There is no way I would part with my hard come by dollars for a game that isn't fun.
Look, I respect your hard work and dedication to the game. We agree on a lot of things. But not everyone is a powergamer. Not everyone likes flying through content as fast as possible. Not everyone likes being treated like a traitor because they have to go to the bathroom, or get a bite to eat, or attend to their children. I can live with regular taskforces and trials, because I know that once they are done for that character, they are done. But when presented with team content that is intended to be run over and over and over, you can't expect me to paste a fake smile on my face. My only choices are to either spend hours not having fun so I can advance to the next level of not having fun, or decide it's not for me.
So I've been pretty much ignoring the Incarnate stuff. Now, months down the road, the devs are giving me a chance to get some of the same rewards. I just don't see why you have to decry the horrible terrible soloists getting a shot. It isn't as if they are taking away the trials. You can still have your teaming, and there are always plenty of players who want rewards as fast as possible. I don't mind that the solo version earns rewards slower. In fact, I agree with making the faster rewards an incentive to get people to work together. So let me have my fun, and you can have yours.
"Home is where, when you have to go there, they have to let you in."
The problem is that iTrials are hectic. There's always a timer going. Always something that you have to rush to and defeat. Hurryhurryhurry!
Yes, the features are there, but I simply found that the iTrials were the third least social things in the game (soloing and trading being slightly less social). There was no breathing space, no time to be social.
Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"