City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

CoH: a game for Introverts, too

Ad Astra

By Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2012-02-06 24:07 in CoH and CoV General Discussions

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba View Post
What's the goal, the purpose, of team-locked content/rewards?
Raiders have to be special unique snowflakes. When the gorilla introduced LFR and let the non-l33t have gear that looked like the l33t's gear (though with lower stats) there was quite the biohazard material storm.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba View Post
True that they could have said no but they like money and mine is as green as everyone else's.

I'm with Bill. They set up Freedom using the Incarnate system as a major carrot to get people to pay for VIP status. Why, then, would they make it so that only a portion of their player base, the portion that likes raiding, would be attracted by that carrot? It would be silly for the devs to ignore the rest of us with money we are willing to spend on a fun game. Because why would I spend money so that the game will let me do something I'm not going to do?

"Home is where, when you have to go there, they have to let you in."

 

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
One way to deal with the teaming issue and the solo player issue in an MMO is to temporize. Which is to say introduce teamed-specific content with exclusive rewards, and then significantly later introduce solo content with a path to those rewards and more teamed-specific content with exclusive rewards in leap-frog fashion.
That is a perfect way if you want to piss off the solo players.

A better way that wouldn't piss them off would be to use the existing perfectly viable and already existing "team only" tool in the game: task forces. They already have minimum team requirement and unique reward tables, so you wouldn't have to develop new features to have team-only rewards. When it comes to promote teaming, that is exactly as efficient as the multi-team trials. Possibly even more efficient, since it is easier to start a team of 8 than a team of 24.

As this system already exist, I do not have to spend a lot of time developing a new multi-team feature, but can instead introduce the systems needed to have a slower small-team/solo path to Incarnate-hood outside task forces, and fix other quality of life issues.

That would in my point of view be the best of all possible worlds.
  • Teamers will still have the advantage as they have always had thanks to being teamed
  • The system itself would be open to everyone, although solo players would be disadvantaged by not being on a team
  • The storytelling would be way more efficient
  • The game play would be way more friendly to the audience's computers
  • You use your coding time more efficient
  • And as a bonus, you don't piss off players who, like me, like teams but hate raids. Nor do you piss off solo players. Players that pay your wages.

Still @Shadow Kitty

"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"

 

Posted

Short version: I think the crux of this issue is that if the solo path is too forgiving, it actually becomes the optimal path and this game becomes all about farming (again). Striking a balance will be difficult.

Longer version: I have some pretty severe criticisms of the trials, but at the same time think a truly "solo" path in this game is especially hard to implement because there are such vast differences between powersets and archetypes when soloing. I'm not making the "If it's not soloable by Empathy Defender its broken" type of argument here--I mean that a game that has dispensed with a meaningful definition of "overperformance" can no longer gauge its rate of rewards, and the direct casualty of that is simply moving the rewards away to a different activity.

I thought the original shard system was more or less reasonable. It did take a while but it was doable. Task Forces made it faster. The trials probably made it too fast, in the sense that they pushed a trial-trial-trial agenda that wore people out quickly. So the issue might really be that the trials just handed out too much. Had they held back more or been set up more like the TF system instead of all-the-time activities it might not have been as bad.

[Also, since I'm feeling passive agressive and haven't had a chance to post this too much ately, level shifts are awful and never should have happened. 9/10ths of the issues cropping up in the incarnate system can be traced back to the introduction of this mechanic, including, to some extent, the solo issue, which is really going to show now that they will apply to an entire zone. Although I am mainly a team player in the rest of the game, part of the reason I even have the desire for solo content is that I'm tired of my newer incarnates playing the same two (maybe three with Keyes) trials over and over, and mostly sucking at it, until they can level shift and play the other 4 for very little reason at all. If we absolutely must have markers of incarnate progress, it should take the form of direct buffs or debuffs to various stats and NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT levels, which curve like a ledge overlooking the Grand Canyon.]

 

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Originally Posted by lordlondis View Post
The problem is that you want to enjoy the game in a way that is not designed to be. Maybe while you are at it you can ask for God Mode, then you can beat the entire game by yourself any you want.
Seriously? "God Mode"?

I think the "problem" is that some people have difficulty with the concept that people have different likes and dislikes.

I've been enjoying the game for close to eight years without problem, and I don't really need your permission, or understanding, to enjoy the game for different reasons than you.

You just need to accept that most people aren't you.

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"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."

=][=

 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
The devs disagree
I daresay I22 says you're wrong my dear. Soloable incarnate content for the masses awaits!

Not that this means team based/trial content will stop. But the devs are NOT by any stretch of the imagination subscribing to the ridiculous notion that MMO = team focused exclusively. City of Heroes had never been of that mind till incarnate content reared its head and now that the trials have settled into a fairly varied array of options, the devs are now adding in a way for the introverts, soloers and small groups to engage the system as well.

Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30

 

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Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
I daresay I22 says you're wrong my dear. Soloable incarnate content for the masses awaits!
Which was true, until they shut out the conclusion and resolution of all that content behind a non-soloable trial.

And no, removing a cutscene didn't 'fix' that.



.

 

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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
Which was true, until they shut out the conclusion and resolution of all that content behind a non-soloable trial.

And no, removing a cutscene didn't 'fix' that.



.
I ran the last arc after the last patch. At no time was I pushed into the trial or left with a trial in my mission list that I noticed. Finished DD's arc and that was that.

Be well, people of CoH.

 

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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
Which was true, until they shut out the conclusion and resolution of all that content behind a non-soloable trial.

And no, removing a cutscene didn't 'fix' that.
It's still true regardless.

Soloable incarnate content does indeed await the masses. Sure the last mission given at the end of the arc is to "complete the DD trial" but that is irrelevant. The fact remains that with I22 players will now have the opportunity to engage in incarnate content that does not require a large group and is outside the trial format. Players who prefer solo and small group content will have the option to advance their incarnate powers without running trials. No amount of "poo pooing" the ending of the dark astoria changes that fact. If anything the ending of the arc encourages the soloist to at least do the trial once for the story and there is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

The bulk of the game from 1-50 is mainly soloable/small group but there IS content that is designed for groups. I22 is not intended to suddenly do away with group content. It does however give soloers/small groupers the chance to engage in the incarnate system without running trials.

Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30

 

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Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
I daresay I22 says you're wrong my dear. Soloable incarnate content for the masses awaits!
I think that you're missing the point - the devs have said that they want players to team up - that doesn't mean that they're only going to make team content - just that team content will give better rewards.
Strict soloers will find that Dark Astoria gives far faster progress than the current solo Incarnate path - but the Trials are still quite a bit faster, as they're the core Incarnate content.

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by lordlondis View Post
The problem is that you want to enjoy the game in a way that is not designed to be. Maybe while you are at it you can ask for God Mode, then you can beat the entire game by yourself any you want.
Hey look, a "God Mode" post. Haven't seen one of them in ages.

This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04

 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
I think that you're missing the point - the devs have said that they want players to team up
I'll gladly team up. I just won't trial up.

Still @Shadow Kitty

"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
I think that you're missing the point - the devs have said that they want players to team up - that doesn't mean that they're only going to make team content - just that team content will give better rewards.
Strict soloers will find that Dark Astoria gives far faster progress than the current solo Incarnate path - but the Trials are still quite a bit faster, as they're the core Incarnate content.
Encouraging teaming is not the same as defining MMORPG as "teaming required if you want to get anything done". It's a simply foolish argument to say that the "massive multiplayer" means anything than what it says... a massive amount of players (not that you are saying otherwise but others involved in this thread have). The devs do not believe that silly notion. They wanted to get a more "traditional endgame" model into COH and did so successfully. But they are also adding alternative content for those not interested in the "traditional endgame" model.

Honestly right now I don't consider there to be a real "solo" path for incarnate advancement. Not in the sense of it being something you can actively pursue and make reasonable progress with. I22 changes that dramatically. I will always agree that the group content should be the faster method of advancement. That doesn't mean that a slower (but not glacial pace) form of advancement cannot co-exist with it for those inclined to solo or small groups.

Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30

 

Posted

I agree with original poster but not for quite the same reasons. From my post count it is fairly obvious I am not exactly an introvert. I do however prefer playing the game solo. I would like to also say it is nice to see that MOST of the replies were the same old sad song "It is a MMORPG you have to team or you should be playing off line games!"

The difference is for one they aren't CoH which really does rock. The other is that if I install a game on my PC like Diablo or Dungeon, which are a fantastic games - I eventually get the point where I've been there done that and need a new game because there is no expanding content (well a sequel every 10 years or so). So I can keep playing and every so often have new things to do.

Personally I have leveled every AT but Bane Spider/Crab Spider to 50 solo. My 2 SOAs are 41 and 34, so soon soon. If I didn't get so easily distracted I would have done it long ago.

That said I realize there is a limit to what Devs can do at one time (unlike some people) so when trials came out and Devs said "There would be solo incarnate content soon (C)" I put up with it. And what do you know Issue 22. It is still massively hard to get shards solo though.

Many parts of this game work much better solo than in teams IMO. Solo SGs are extremely cool. Sure it takes a while to build a fully functional base but THAT IS THE POINT! Once you have it it isn't fun anymore. Combat solo means I can use strategy and tactics with my powers. Most players have no concept of those terms, which makes teams extremely boring. Half the time you can't even get people to wait for the tank to go in first never mind any real strategy.

I don't like to die in game. Dieing means you failed, but many players are like moths the the flame of death. For Incarnates there is effectively no punishment at all for dieing. First law of economics is "If it is underpriced it will be over used." So teaming is no fun in COH. I enjoy teaming in games where you have to actually fight together, but this isn't one of them. Not anymore.

----------------------------
You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.

 

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Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty View Post
I'll gladly team up. I just won't trial up.
Amen.

4 people > 30 people

 

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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
I thought the original shard system was more or less reasonable. It did take a while but it was doable. Task Forces made it faster. The trials probably made it too fast, in the sense that they pushed a trial-trial-trial agenda that wore people out quickly. So the issue might really be that the trials just handed out too much.
Just look at the relative rewards.

Run the correct TF and get the reward you need? Good job, you saved having to earn 4 shards.

Run the trial and get the reward you need? Good job, you saved having to earn 150 threads and several hundred million inf.

For all it's problems, at least the shard system didn't jump an order of magnitude outside of reasonable.

 

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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba View Post
As for your design philosophy, I fail to see the point of it. Why piss off X% of your paying population with a "we'll throw yall a bone later" content plan? What's the goal, the purpose, of team-locked content/rewards? How is that compromise?
The goal would actually be, in all direct seriousness, to offer different things to different players that want different things, and to skew my playerbase in the direction of keeping the players willing to accept they won't get everything they want in favor of the players willing to let other people have some things they want, in exchange for knowing they will get some of the things they want, even if that includes teamed content with content-tied rewards.

You think its pissing off an unnecessary percentage of the paying population, but I disagree. I think its trading one set for another set that wants at least some of what you would eliminate entirely. And I would be willing to put my money where my mouth is on that design decision, if it was mine to make.

To put it more directly, I wouldn't actually *want* customers who are only playing my game because they think I will only do exactly what they want me to do, and nothing else. I would rather be honest with them right up front and promise them in no uncertain terms that that will not be true. I'd rather have everyone else, because I think that group is a thousand times larger.

I don't think this orphans people who predominantly or exclusively solos. I know lots of those people in lots of MMOs, and at one time I was one as well. I think it pisses off the people who have to have everything their way. A think 99% of all people who predominantly or exclusively solo only need *enough* game to be entertained, they do not need to know that *everything* is designed specifically with them in mind.

The obvious answer to your question of how this is a compromise is that some people like content-coupled rewards and teaming, and some don't. This is a compromise between those two groups. You think the first group is inconsequential or simply wrong, so you do not believe their interests need to be represented in any compromise. I don't agree. Unless absolutely necessary, I don't decide who's worthy of the game and who's not. And in this case, its not necessary. I've already decided that anyone who draws a line in the sand is going to have lower priority than everyone else. Having made that first decision, I don't need to make an additional value judgment here.

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
What Trial has 30 players on it?
What player demands solo only content - good/goose/gander

 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
I think that you're missing the point - the devs have said that they want players to team up - that doesn't mean that they're only going to make team content - just that team content will give better rewards.
Strict soloers will find that Dark Astoria gives far faster progress than the current solo Incarnate path - but the Trials are still quite a bit faster, as they're the core Incarnate content.
You get faster progress than the current solo path by playing Angry Birds, so that's a rather low bar.

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Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
You get faster progress than the current solo path by playing Angry Birds, so that's a rather low bar.
People have been hitting T3 just with Shards and SSA rewards

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
The goal would actually be, in all direct seriousness, to offer different things to different players that want different things, and to skew my playerbase in the direction of keeping the players willing to accept they won't get everything they want in favor of the players willing to let other people have some things they want, in exchange for knowing they will get some of the things they want, even if that includes teamed content with content-tied rewards.
I fail to see how I've worked against this goal. Everyone that wants incarnate powers wants the same thing: the incarnate powers. The devs offered incarnate powers with only one viable way to gain them: teaming in trials. What the devs did here does not have correlation with what you just described.

Quote:
You think its pissing off an unnecessary percentage of the paying population, but I disagree. I think its trading one set for another set that wants at least some of what you would eliminate entirely. And I would be willing to put my money where my mouth is on that design decision, if it was mine to make.
Again, there is a goal: incarnate powers. I want them. I do not want trials eliminated. I want them in the game for the people that want to do them. Apparently I am the type of person you want in your playerbase as per the first paragraph. Or are you instead stating that you want a playerbase that is perfectly happy with the concept of "team for this reward because it is the only way I'm going to offer it to you."

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To put it more directly, I wouldn't actually *want* customers who are only playing my game because they think I will only do exactly what they want me to do, and nothing else. I would rather be honest with them right up front and promise them in no uncertain terms that that will not be true. I'd rather have everyone else, because I think that group is a thousand times larger.
Again, I want offline SG invites to my own account. I don't expect to get it but that won't stop me from wanting it. You'd rather I cease paying a subscription to your game simply because I want something you'll refuse to supply?

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I don't think this orphans people who predominantly or exclusively solos. I know lots of those people in lots of MMOs, and at one time I was one as well. I think it pisses off the people who have to have everything their way. A think 99% of all people who predominantly or exclusively solo only need *enough* game to be entertained, they do not need to know that *everything* is designed specifically with them in mind.
You're correct: I don't find "my way" at all unreasonable. Why should I? I reasoned myself into this opinion. It's beginning to sound like you honestly expect humans to react positively to the statement: "We're going to give you X benefit/reward/progression but only if you toe the line, play as we tell you to, and do it with a smile on your face." That's not going to happen. Game developers aren't paying me to play their games.

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The obvious answer to your question of how this is a compromise is that some people like content-coupled rewards and teaming, and some don't. This is a compromise between those two groups. You think the first group is inconsequential or simply wrong, so you do not believe their interests need to be represented in any compromise. I don't agree. Unless absolutely necessary, I don't decide who's worthy of the game and who's not. And in this case, its not necessary. I've already decided that anyone who draws a line in the sand is going to have lower priority than everyone else. Having made that first decision, I don't need to make an additional value judgment here.
That's a false equivalency that I'm honestly surprised to see you make. The compromise between those that want team-based content-coupled rewards and those that don't would be to have solo-based content-coupled rewards. So where are those? Why aren't those being offered? Where's the 5 incarnate powers that can ONLY be unlocked by a handful of solo-only trials?

A compromise is what we're getting with I-22. Everyone can get the rewards either quickly through team-based trials or slowly through other content. Which has been the case for everything (insert practically/include workarounds/etc) else in this game.

Yes, I think that people who believe that locking rewards/character progression behind team-only content, particularly in a historically solo-friendly setting, have an opinion that is detrimental to the financial success of a game.

Be well, people of CoH.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
The goal would actually be, in all direct seriousness, to offer different things to different players that want different things, and to skew my playerbase in the direction of keeping the players willing to accept they won't get everything they want in favor of the players willing to let other people have some things they want, in exchange for knowing they will get some of the things they want, even if that includes teamed content with content-tied rewards.
I'm going to begin this post with a parable.

Timmy and his younger brother, Tommy, are outside playing one day whehn they decide they are hungry. They go into the kitchen to get one of their mother's chocolate chip cookies, but discover there is only one left.

Their mother, being the progressive sort, asks each child what they think should be done.

Tommy thinks for a moment and says that she should break the cookie in half and give half to each of them.

Timmy, being older and wiser, says that his mother should give him the cookie since he is the oldest.

Their mother, in a desire to teach them about compromise, gives Timmy 3/4 of the cookie and gives Tommy 1/4.

Most sane people can see the problem with the mother's reasoning, but I get a feeling you don't.

Quote:
You think its pissing off an unnecessary percentage of the paying population, but I disagree. I think its trading one set for another set that wants at least some of what you would eliminate entirely. And I would be willing to put my money where my mouth is on that design decision, if it was mine to make.
You have yet to address how giving a viable non-trial path would eliminate anything entirely.

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I don't think this orphans people who predominantly or exclusively solos. I know lots of those people in lots of MMOs, and at one time I was one as well. I think it pisses off the people who have to have everything their way. A think 99% of all people who predominantly or exclusively solo only need *enough* game to be entertained, they do not need to know that *everything* is designed specifically with them in mind.
I would call this ridiculous caricature a "strawman", but that would be an insult to scarecrows and other plant based lifeforms everywhere.

I haven't seen anyone demand a solo mothership raid; although, oddly, you can even attempt that solo if you want.

What tends to be the central idea in these arguments is the endgame. That's not "everything". That is a fundamental and vital part of the game. It is not different in any meaningful way from saying you can solo to 30, but to hit 50 you have to group.

Demanding a viable endgame is not the same as demanding every bit of content be available and claiming otherwise is being intellectually dishonest.

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The obvious answer to your question of how this is a compromise is that some people like content-coupled rewards and teaming, and some don't. This is a compromise between those two groups. You think the first group is inconsequential or simply wrong, so you do not believe their interests need to be represented in any compromise. I don't agree. Unless absolutely necessary, I don't decide who's worthy of the game and who's not. And in this case, its not necessary. I've already decided that anyone who draws a line in the sand is going to have lower priority than everyone else. Having made that first decision, I don't need to make an additional value judgment here.
And then we get back to Timmy and Tommy.

At least I can understand Timmy. He's a jerk, sure, but he's just being greedy and selfish, and we can all relate to that. He's not actively trying to take cookie away from Tommy, that is just a side consequence of wanting more for himself.

But the people against solo content don't even have that weak excuse. How would a pro-trial person be harmed by the DA rewards not sucking quite so hard? Even in situations where company resources must be directed to produce the soloable content, we have this amazing scaling technology in the game. Every bit of solo content they create is also group content, so the group people lose literally nothing.

They are essentially saying "look, I gain nothing by denying this to you, but the important part to me is that you don't get it", and that is the attitude of an *******. And when deciding how to measure a compromise, I think you should side against the ********.

 

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Originally Posted by rsclark View Post
the DA rewards not sucking quite so hard?
So far, one of the beta testers has hit +2 in 11 days - that doesn't seem to be very "sucky".

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
So far, one of the beta testers has hit +2 in 11 days - that doesn't seem to be very "sucky".
Compared to the 2 hours you could do it in trials it is. And I don't think it's an accident that you list the number of days instead of the more informative number of played hours.