CoH: a game for Introverts, too
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2012-02-06 24:07 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I'm a bit confused about the response to Arcanaville's comments. I don't get that she's putting up straw men or using the negative argument that best suits her. Her points are correct about game design in general and CoH in specific.
A lot of stuff over the years has been locked into team content, and when players worked out how to solo a lot of it, that wasn't really intended behavior or functioning. I don't see how the Incarnate system is a departure from earlier attempts. If anything, setting it up as league(raid)-style play strikes me as consistent with decisions made as far back as the purple patch.
Also, the +2 and +3 shifts only work in incarnate content anyway, yes? If you get +1, you've shifted as far as you're going to in the vast majority of soloable content. The incarnate slots make a big difference on top of that, but they're not particularly necessary for that solo content, are they?
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For the most part, I'd agree. I just found that one specific assumption to be inconsistent. |
Originally Posted by BellaStrega
I'm a bit confused about the response to Arcanaville's comments. I don't get that she's putting up straw men or using the negative argument that best suits her. Her points are correct about game design in general and CoH in specific.
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| A lot of stuff over the years has been locked into team content, and when players worked out how to solo a lot of it, that wasn't really intended behavior or functioning. I don't see how the Incarnate system is a departure from earlier attempts. If anything, setting it up as league(raid)-style play strikes me as consistent with decisions made as far back as the purple patch. |
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| Also, the +2 and +3 shifts only work in incarnate content anyway, yes? If you get +1, you've shifted as far as you're going to in the vast majority of soloable content. The incarnate slots make a big difference on top of that, but they're not particularly necessary for that solo content, are they? |
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@Valerika
Well, I mean I found raid gear in WoW was huge for soloing, but needing to be in a raid to get it didn't seem to ever be a bad thing. The closest you can come to soloing to get that content is using the instance queue, which actually works fairly well.
I'm not arguing that "just because something's always been done a certain way that means it's optimal design or a good idea." What I was saying is that on this particular issue, the incarnate trials were not a departure from past design philosophy, but rather an expansion of it.
Point taken on the boosts from the other slots. I recalled people talking about the shifts themselves, which struck me as strange because of how they're limited.
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I honestly do not see what previous design philosophies resemble whole branches of new power choices being gated behind team-only content.|
Originally Posted by BellaStrega
...What I was saying is that on this particular issue, the incarnate trials were not a departure from past design philosophy, but rather an expansion of it.
... |
That is the major difference.
It's not like anything else in the game.
I'm not saying that this makes it wrong... I am just saying that I do not agree that any previous design philosophies of this game match the Incarnate System as you and others have indicated.
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Originally Posted by BellaStrega
Well, I mean I found raid gear in WoW was huge for soloing, but needing to be in a raid to get it didn't seem to ever be a bad thing. The closest you can come to soloing to get that content is using the instance queue, which actually works fairly well.
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I think in a lot of games, people accept that design because that's all they've ever known and all they've ever seen. Trends seem to be moving away from that, though.Quote:
| I'm not arguing that "just because something's always been done a certain way that means it's optimal design or a good idea." What I was saying is that on this particular issue, the incarnate trials were not a departure from past design philosophy, but rather an expansion of it. |
From reading this thread, and many like it before, it appears that the soloists were generally comfortable with the previous team-only rewards, but when it came to end-game content, they weren't just missing out on a little bit of exclusive content/accolades, etc. They're missing out on something HUGE. And while I consider those who boycott the system to be overreacting (I prefer to solo, but I've run the trials enough to get tier 4s on both my main chars
)), I still think they have a point about how the -major- content in the game should be made with consideration given for soloists.I think -some- team only content is healthy for any game, but incarnate material is simply too big for soloists to ignore/consider "unnecessary". Regardless of whether the buffs are "necessary" or not, it's hard to argue that they're trivial. They make a big difference, as I can personally attest to on my KM/Shield and Elec/Elec scrappers. Even if I can bite the bullet and team to get those buffs, as I have done, many soloists don't feel the same way, and they deserve consideration.
Here's my opinion on exclusively team-based end-game content: I don't think it's good design if it's done on purpose. As a "We promise we'll get to you when we've optimized the teaming method", it's perfectly okay. As a "We still want the teaming method to be easier so you'll want to do it, but here's a not-as-good solo option", it's still perfectly okay. But as a "NO, THIS IS AN MMO, TEAM OR GET LEFT BEHIND"...no. That's absolutist and exclusionist for the sake of exclusion.
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@Valerika
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Hear hear
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Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
I'll gladly team up. I just won't trial up.
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You're mistaken. Hamidon enhancements were raid content. They could be traded to characters who never stepped foot in the Hive, unlike Incarnate shards, threads, or components, but in order for them to exist in the first place, someone had to raid for them. Later on, you could get them through Statesman's and Lord Recluse's TFs, but initially you pretty much had to be there or someone who was willing to give them to you had to be there. And when HOs were stronger and there was no ED, there were characters that were entirely slotted out with HOs, who were significantly stronger than characters who weren't. What is the difference, exactly? Even after ED, HOs were still fairly strong. Even after HOs were nerfed to make room for IOs, they were still more potent than anything else you could slot.
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
I honestly do not see what previous design philosophies resemble whole branches of new power choices being gated behind team-only content.
That is the major difference. It's not like anything else in the game. I'm not saying that this makes it wrong... I am just saying that I do not agree that any previous design philosophies of this game match the Incarnate System as you and others have indicated. |
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I hope you adequately greased up the English language before you did what you just did to it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
"I do not want any rewards at all, without any exception, gated behind content that requires teaming."
This is an example of someone asking for a game to not include something, as I define it. |
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As stated before, this is not a single piece of content. It is the endgame. It is the entirety of post 50 character advancement.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I disagree. This is not just a quibble about semantics. There's a distinction between the person who makes a request about a single piece of content ("I want this single piece of content to have a reward unique to it") and the person that attempts to impose their will across all content for all time with an absolute rule ("no content that requires teaming is allowed to contain a reward that isn't offered in non-soloable content").
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I think the other thing to point out is that earlier when you suggested (in a non-serious sort of way) that there be exclusive rewards for solo content, that Arcana took exception with it. It's funny how the exclusive rewards are only a good idea when it benefits the side Arcana is advocating.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I'll state it now:
In this case, getting screwed specifically points at the developers introducing the incarnate powers in the way they did without providing At The Same Time a viable avenue for those that solo/avoid large team content. I don't disagree with PvP IOs only being obtainable by going into PvP zones. I wouldn't even disagree with team-only buffs being locked behind team-only content. I would, however, and forever will, take issue with character buffs/progress/etc that would aid a soloist being locked behind team-only content. |
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The original Hami set-up was more like a zone event or public quest than a raid - while there needed to be a large(ish) number of people there, you did not need to actually form a group. People could just show up and essentially do their thing in a vaguely organized manner.
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Originally Posted by BellaStrega
You're mistaken. Hamidon enhancements were raid content. They could be traded to characters who never stepped foot in the Hive, unlike Incarnate shards, threads, or components, but in order for them to exist in the first place, someone had to raid for them. Later on, you could get them through Statesman's and Lord Recluse's TFs, but initially you pretty much had to be there or someone who was willing to give them to you had to be there. And when HOs were stronger and there was no ED, there were characters that were entirely slotted out with HOs, who were significantly stronger than characters who weren't. What is the difference, exactly? Even after ED, HOs were still fairly strong. Even after HOs were nerfed to make room for IOs, they were still more potent than anything else you could slot.
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I think the hami raids are an apt analogy. Perhaps if we put it into an old perspective, that might facilitate understanding, rather than cause people to staunchly defend their "side". (I hate that we all seem to do this, rather than just listen or discuss. And yeah, of course that includes me!)
What if, back in the day, people were told they can finally go up in levels from 40 to 50 - but the only way to do that is by doing hami raids? And what if in the next half issue (which they didn't do then) it was "hey, we just made a new zone! the RWZ has been revamped from the old Rikti Crash Site! And now you can also progress by going on something called a mothership raid!
"What, people don't like that? Well, ok, you can progress anyway, we made some nifty missions. But you'll only gain exp at 1/100th (or whatever the non-trial progression rate is currently in beta) of the rate of people doing these raids."
How would you have felt about this? How do you think others would have felt about it? Would we see people leaving the game, or would they just be content with level 40, and continue on as they had been playing it all along? What would you have done?
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And they were always incredibly rare in the market, because they required raiding. You might see a corrolation there.
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Originally Posted by BellaStrega
You're mistaken. Hamidon enhancements were raid content. They could be traded to characters who never stepped foot in the Hive, unlike Incarnate shards, threads, or components, but in order for them to exist in the first place, someone had to raid for them.
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Hami-Os have no new levels (or level shifts) and no new powers. They are just a bit of refinement within the current level.|
Originally Posted by BellaStrega
And when HOs were stronger and there was no ED, there were characters that were entirely slotted out with HOs, who were significantly stronger than characters who weren't. What is the difference, exactly?
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If Hamidon raids would have been the only way to go from level 48 to 50, I think that this parallel would work. But they weren't.
Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"
The last few pages seem to be people dividing into two camps: teams-only for end-game content (Arcanaville, TonyV, BellaStrega) and solo+teams for end-game content (most everyone else). TonyV is taking the more extreme approach of insisting that everything should be teams-only. I can't be sure if BillZBubba is insisting that everything (including TFs and Hamidon) should be soloable.
Am I reading that correctly?
Speaking for myself, I think CoH should maintain the philosophy it's had all along: everything concerned with the main progression of our characters can be played on teams for faster and better rewards or solo to take things at one's own pace.
So I'm on the "end-game Incarnate stuff should have a viable solo path" side of the equation, but I have no issue whatsoever with things like TFs, SFs, Hamidon and Mothership raids being team-only content. Incarnates are important to our characters, while that other stuff is just side missions one can ignore to no detriment.
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After the initial rush of players running Dark Astoria for story content, they'll quickly figure out that the pace of the Incarnate progression is so slow compared to trials they'd be stupid to to run DA arcs more than once.
The vast majority will go right back to trials, and the people on servers with low populations or who play at odd times preventing them from running trials, will be forced to run DA until they become frustrated with the lack of progress and just give up on Incarnates or move to another server to run trials.
As I see it, DA really serves no one at the current rate of progression and will be mostly empty three-four months after launch, except maybe for people using it as a trial staging area.
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I would be very surprised if they didn't increase the rate of progression over time. I think the devs are playing it smart and downplaying expectations early on to give themselves more leeway for future adjustments--it's a lot easier to increase rewards and make everyone happy than to throttle them back and piss everyone off.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
After the initial rush of players running Dark Astoria for content, they'll quickly figure out that the pace of the Incarnate progression is so slow compared to trials they'd be stupid to to run DA arcs rather than trials.
The vast majority will go right back to trials, and the people on servers with low populations or who play at odd times preventing them from running trials, will be forced to run DA until they becomes frustrated with the lack of progress and just give up on Incarnates or move to another server to run trials. As I see it, DA really serves no one at the current rate of progression and will be mostly empty three-four months after launch, except maybe for people using it as a trial staging area. . |
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@Valerika
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On the contrary, Hamidon enhancements elevated characters to a fairly high power level. They didn't give you new powers or explicit level shifts, but with a character with full Hamidon slotting, you'd be fairly powerful. Would the level shift really matter if you could increase accuracy and damage both by 270%? They weren't a "bit of refinement." They were a new power level. They didn't provide access to entirely new powers, but they really didn't need to.|
Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
Hami-Os have no new levels (or level shifts) and no new powers. They are just a bit of refinement within the current level.
If Hamidon raids would have been the only way to go from level 48 to 50, I think that this parallel would work. But they weren't. |
Also, as I recall, players did treat it as a form of progression. Hamidon enhancements lost some popularity after IOs, however, for good reason.
The level 48-50 analogy makes no sense at all, however. Content like the incarnate trials exists to give characters at max level more things to do. No one's going to lock actual leveling mechanics behind required teaming. The incarnate slots are more like epic gear than true leveling.
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No, you are not reading that correctly. I never stated that end-game content should be teams only. I stated that the way they handled incarnate content was not a departure from previous attempts at end-game content. The fact that some of it turned out to be soloable does not mean it was added to the game with the intent to solo. |
Originally Posted by Ironik
The last few pages seem to be people dividing into two camps: teams-only for end-game content (Arcanaville, TonyV, BellaStrega) and solo+teams for end-game content (most everyone else). TonyV is taking the more extreme approach of insisting that everything should be teams-only. I can't be sure if BillZBubba is insisting that everything (including TFs and Hamidon) should be soloable.
Am I reading that correctly? |
I actually prefer to spend most of my time soloing and I think that Dark Astoria's rewards could use some improvement, although I do agree that it should not be nearly as fast as running trials.
My issue is that people are making arguments from a false premise, not that I particularly disagree with what they want.
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DA serves ME. I do not run trials anymore. I really have no desire to. I do however wish to continue progressing on incarnate powers on my characters... which until I22 is like paper cutting my delicate parts and pouring salt on them with how slow it is. I22's content is going to give me a ton of stuff to do and at the same time let me advance my incarnate progression at a pace that isn't glacial all without having to step foot into a trial. Sure it wont be the breakneck pace of trial advancement but I am ok with that. For me that serves quite well.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
After the initial rush of players running Dark Astoria for story content, they'll quickly figure out that the pace of the Incarnate progression is so slow compared to trials they'd be stupid to to run DA arcs more than once.
The vast majority will go right back to trials, and the people on servers with low populations or who play at odd times preventing them from running trials, will be forced to run DA until they become frustrated with the lack of progress and just give up on Incarnates or move to another server to run trials. As I see it, DA really serves no one at the current rate of progression and will be mostly empty three-four months after launch, except maybe for people using it as a trial staging area. . |
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What would be highest: level 50+270%, or level 51+270%?|
Originally Posted by BellaStrega
Would the level shift really matter if you could increase accuracy and damage both by 270%?
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There's a slight difference between gradually nudging yourself up from pre-hami to post-hami, and getting what in effect is another level.
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Originally Posted by BellaStrega
Also, as I recall, players did treat it as a form of progression. Hamidon enhancements lost some popularity after IOs, however, for good reason.
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Originally Posted by BellaStrega
No one's going to lock actual leveling mechanics behind required teaming. The incarnate slots are more like epic gear than true leveling.
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Nor does it give you the ability to swoon or pant as if you're out of breath or get frozen in ice when you change gear. Cool powers wasn't the only thing hidden behind the raid only lock.
It does give you cool looks tho. For a given value of "cool".
Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"
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Except that just before your post, he brings up the interesting twist to that statement which itself is potentially worthy of discussion: the exception he explicitly carves out is the case where rewards exclusive to content are only useful within that content. Which is tantamount to saying all of the game relevant to a soloer should be accessible to a solo player. The question is whether that exception is meaningful.|
Originally Posted by Valerika
No, I'm saying that no one (Bill included) specifically asked you how you'd deal with soloists who demand that ALL content, without exception, in this game be soloable.
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I don't think we're going to get very far with that line of thought, but I'm just pointing it out to illustrate that the discussion references a much more complex problem than I believe you are giving it credit for.
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I'm pretty certain I said the exact opposite. Apparently its confusing when I support something, but oppose certain arguments in favor of it. You'd think people would be used to that by now.
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Originally Posted by Ironik
The last few pages seem to be people dividing into two camps: teams-only for end-game content (Arcanaville, TonyV, BellaStrega) and solo+teams for end-game content (most everyone else).
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I understand the correlation you are making and I absolutely never believed that team-required content did not exist (just to make that clear).|
Originally Posted by BellaStrega
You're mistaken. Hamidon enhancements were raid content. They could be traded to characters who never stepped foot in the Hive, unlike Incarnate shards, threads, or components, but in order for them to exist in the first place, someone had to raid for them. Later on, you could get them through Statesman's and Lord Recluse's TFs, but initially you pretty much had to be there or someone who was willing to give them to you had to be there. And when HOs were stronger and there was no ED, there were characters that were entirely slotted out with HOs, who were significantly stronger than characters who weren't. What is the difference, exactly? Even after ED, HOs were still fairly strong. Even after HOs were nerfed to make room for IOs, they were still more potent than anything else you could slot.
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However, I personally do not find Hami-Os to fit the bill as being similar as the entire scope of the Incarnate Tree (as well as the rewards from the Astral and Empyrean Venders).
Enhancements are just bonuses (possibly huge benefits, but just bonuses for game mechanics). This game is completely functional without any additional bonuses and do not appeal to as many people, nor as greatly to most, as new abilities and powers.
Additional percentage increments are no match for shooting flames or lightning or throwing up heals or defensive barriers or calling NPCs or Pets... Not to the masses that play this game. Absolutely some players may love bonuses more than new flashy powers... But there are certainly as many that prefer the flash, the visual options and/or the game mechanical options more than bonus percentage points.
I am not trying to nitpick or force any arguments with you for the sake of arguing.
I just honestly don't share your opinion on that and figured I'd share mine.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
While your philosophy may work well for your game, the problem is we're dealing with this game. Seven years into your game, the long-term players will be used to team-only rewards. Seven years into this game, it is the exact opposite of what this game has always been.
While there have always been some rewards locked behind team content, as well as a few rewards locked behind specific activities. The incarnate system is not one that has a reward locked behind it. It's a system with numerous rewards locked behind it. Multiple powers, buffs, pets, lesser rewards such as costumes, emotes, and, prior to the Paragon Market, requested since day 1 QoL features.
Aside from the normal group that complains about anything they don't want, your hypothetical game would not whip up a firestorm over this level of reward for certain content because the players would be used to it. They were not in this one, and because of this, while I think the devs were right to create endgame trials to appeal to a wider group of players, I also think they alienated a lot of their players without bringing out some form of solo path, especially to the flashier powers and the Astral market, at the same time.
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