Quote:
Yeah springing PvP on heroes is a good way to alienate the largest portion (people who choose not to PvP) of the player base. However back in the day I saw my husband od this in a PvP zone...the one with the rocks. He pulled aggro and the hero grabbed his rock sample then my husband would grab his then they would run off to the next rock. On the base thing they took out all the defenses and he went first to get his completed sample, then when there hero went to use the console he attacked him from behind as soon as the glow effect or whatever came up.|
Originally Posted by Liz Bathory
In a co-op mish I would love the following possibiliy...
One of my choices end up joining the big enemy.. and from that moment I am in PVP mode on the side of teh main villain vs. the rest of the team who vhoose to fight him. And if he and I (and possible others who picked my choice) wins we get a temp power. Will also make PVP have some sense again. |
There was some screaming over broadcast and my husband gave a quick villainous speech about who had the true power and other PvPers filled broadcast with humor about the situation.
The funyn thing to me was no one agreed to help. They arrived at a rock together and the hero jumped in and grabbed his rock first so after it repoped my husband grabbed and went in the same direction so the hero assumed it was all going to eb cool. Foolish cape....
Quote:
Evidently I'm going to be bowling with footballs at the Super Bowl party I'm going to. Anything is possible.
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Originally Posted by Venture
Yes, it does, because if you try to score a touchdown in bowling UR DOIN IT WRONG.
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Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
Quote:
You heard it here first, World-Ending Character-Deleting Villain Arc in i23!
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Evidently I'm going to be bowling with footballs at the Super Bowl party I'm going to. Anything is possible.
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Quote:
Paragon's construction crew works insanely fast. Skyway in Sutter TF, the Hollows in SSA1...It's a wonder what's taking Galaxy City and Boomtown so long |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That's quite possible - although one of the zones that they're probably most likely to look at for a co-op revamp is Boomtown
 But if they decided to destroy, say, Skyway City as a result of the Admiral Sutter TF, and turn it into a co-op zone, there there's no reason they couldn't create a mission arc where red side players set up the alliance bewteen the loyalists and the Sky Raiders, and then help them wreck the zone as the finale of the arc - completing the arc would then unlock the first new story contact in the revamped zone. Even though the Sutter TF would mean that their loyalist and Sky Raider allies had been stopped and defeated, it'd still let Villain players feel that they'd manipulated 2 enemy groups into forming an alliance to do their work for them, and had caused some permanent damage to Paragon City. To give a further evil boost, it could even be set up that the Villain player was intending to betray their allies anyway, once they'd served their purpose, which would mean that even the Heroes' victory in the Sutter TF would actually help the Villains. |
.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
Quote:
If PvP was only moments like this then that'd be one thing. The problem with making it a regular mechanic or expectation is that, well, not so much.
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Originally Posted by LISAR
Yeah springing PvP on heroes is a good way to alienate the largest portion (people who choose not to PvP) of the player base. However back in the day I saw my husband od this in a PvP zone...the one with the rocks. He pulled aggro and the hero grabbed his rock sample then my husband would grab his then they would run off to the next rock. On the base thing they took out all the defenses and he went first to get his completed sample, then when there hero went to use the console he attacked him from behind as soon as the glow effect or whatever came up.
There was some screaming over broadcast and my husband gave a quick villainous speech about who had the true power and other PvPers filled broadcast with humor about the situation. The funyn thing to me was no one agreed to help. They arrived at a rock together and the hero jumped in and grabbed his rock first so after it repoped my husband grabbed and went in the same direction so the hero assumed it was all going to eb cool. Foolish cape.... |
@Mindshadow
The truth that PVP-lovers will deny is that CoH is not meant for PVP. It only has PVP from popular demand and because all the cool kids were doing it.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
Quote:
Because that's only worth six points and that's a lot of pins left to pick up the spare.
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Originally Posted by Venture
Yes, it does, because if you try to score a touchdown in bowling UR DOIN IT WRONG.
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Exactly.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
If you're going to play the "you can't destroy the world because if you do you won't be able to play the game anymore" card, it's only fair to look at it from the other side. The villain du jour can't destroy the world either, because if they do we won't be able to play the game anymore.
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That's why that villain never will. They may state that's their intent, they might take the steps to do so, but the player will always stop them. And if it is a fail possible mission, you'll find usually an NPC stepped in to do what you cannot.
That's why world-destroyers are not good Player Characters, they're best used as a non-played character to provide an obstacle to PC goals.
"Desire for goodness leads to earnestness. Earnestness in turn leads to sanctimonious self-righteousness, which breeds intolerance, upon which harsh judgement quickly follows, yielding dire punishment, inflicting general terror and paranoia, eventually culminating in revolt, leading to chaos, then dissolution, and thus, the end of civilization. We are creatures dependent upon civilization. It is the only environment in which we can thrive."
This quote is usually what I have in mind when I make my villains. None of them want the world destroyed. In fact, in their eyes Heroes are more dangerous to society than any villain ever could be.
You know there is an option for those who want to destroy the world and since I haven't read the rest of the thread I have no idea if its been suggested. Make an repeatable arc where your villain goes through all the steps to destroy the world. On the final mission give them the choice to go through with it or not. If they don't the arc ends there with some mechanic that returns the status quo. Maybe give them a badge, some way to say I have proven that yes I can destroy the world. For the ones that "Push the Red Button" the world ends and they end up in a desolate landscape instance appropriate with the way they destroyed the world. They can leave that character there having destroyed the world or there will be a glowy or some sort of interactable object in the environment that through bad writing, time travel, or some other contrivance allows them to undo what they have done (also a badge for actually destroying the world). Alternatively they could have the desolate landscape and a prompt that comes up that says something along the lines of "Congratulations you have destroyed the world/dimension/whatever. There is nothing more you can do here. Would you like to go back in time to continue wreaking havoc or do it all over again?" Yes pops you back into a zone and no leaves you there with someway to reactivate the prompt in case you ever change your mind.
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Quote:
Right, and that is why, in a meta context, "you have to team up to stop the world from being destroyed" is no more valid than "I want to destroy the world." You can't bring up the "if you destroy the world, or leave it, you can't play the game anymore" meta-argument without acknowledging the flip side: The world will not be destroyed, no matter what you do or don't do. Now gimme some freaking villain content already.
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Originally Posted by Haetron
Exactly.
That's why that villain never will. They may state that's their intent, they might take the steps to do so, but the player will always stop them. And if it is a fail possible mission, you'll find usually an NPC stepped in to do what you cannot. |
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Simple solution:
I'm a villain, and I figure out a way to stop Darrin Wade. Before I do, I ransom the world to the Heroes. Give me what I want, then I'll stop him. Or else I'll just let him start his little rampage and only stop him when he gets to my door. You just better hope to hell that he gets to my door before yours.
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I'm *really* hoping this is how they present it. I don't understand why SSA 7 even has to be co-op. "Wade tried to cheat me and get away with it, so I'm going to stomp him into goo, cosmic powers or no cosmic powers" is a perfectly fine villainous motivation. And it doesn't require tagging along with heroes or dragging out the tired, creaky old "but you have to save the world, that's where your stuff is" cliche.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
I've only read the first and last page, so I apologize if this has already been covered...
The dialog options I got had nothing to do with "for the greater good". They were more like "you thought double-crossing me was a good idea? Let's see how that works out for you. I hope you don't think I'll be impressed by Incarnate powers" and ended with Wade running away throwing half-hearted empty threats. Yeah, I guess I'll end up stopping him from destroying the world, but that's not at all why I'm hunting him down. It's not even self-preservation, just personal revenge, which isn't as good as world domination, but still a valid villainous motivation. |
34 heroes,
20 villains, Victory, Justice, Infinity, Virtue, Triumph, Exalted -- some more active than others
Quote:
Way cool idea. It gets my vote!
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Originally Posted by Zaloopa
I always thought it would be cool if co-op content had optional objectives that are villainous in nature and come with a nice reward, but completing these objectives would force your character's alignment to be villain. Maybe Malta has a bunch of meta humans captured in some kind of power draining machine, you can use the controls to kill them off and infuse yourself with their power granting you a 24 hour temp power similar to the mortimer kal one. But if you want this temp power you have to deal with becoming a villain.
So all those heroes who like to take the moral high ground, but still try to kill off Infernia and Glacia to make the Lady Grey Task Force go quicker, have to deal with the consequences of not sticking with their morals. I know there would be a whole mountain of problems with a system like this unfortunately, but it's still a cool idea. |
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I don't see why the villains don't get their own victories.
It doesn't need to be 'omg I will blow up teh worldz!'
It could be other villainous things. They could orchestrate some grand theft and get a satisfying 'while the heroes were taking in Mr.Bad, you snuck into his vault and made off with his gold. This stuff is going to make you seriously rich' or whatever. Villany isn't always about blowing up the world, its about personal profit and everything between.
Quote:
I had a discussion with GG once on this....|
Originally Posted by Antigonus
I think the answer is simple: The next arc needs to have the heroes doing something utterly evil and despicable for "the greater good".
And I want to be on a team with Golden Girl when that arc comes out just to see her squirm. |
Would you kill the always returning world and human life threatening villain. In my case even a vampire who is already dead. Would you destroy / kill her!?
She said 'No'...
So I felt pretty untouchable whahahahaaha...
Other heroes have made that choice... Wonder Woman is one. Brought up as a warrior she killed to keep the planet safe. A farmer boy as Superman would never. And Batman is fundemental against taking a human life. But it is not smart to keep an always returning danger loose/alive.
Every government in the world would agree that if its 'for the greater good' a villainous descision can be made. How many 'heroes' would have shot Adolf Hitler down in cold blood?
I would love to see a heroic mission like this.. I really do.
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Average - A new race of aliens arrives on Earth. And Vanguard has you investigate them!
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Quote:
Love this IDEA!!!!|
Originally Posted by Tetsuko_NA
Of course, the other option is to stop playing the 'Destroy The WHOLE WORLD! AH HA HA HA HA!' card.
Allowing me to take over the world... well, let's say I defeat Recluse and thus really impress pretty much the entirety of Arachnos with my sheer bad-self-ness. So much so that no matter their factions, they would only ever fight me in self-defense. We, of course, have the technology to code enemies yellow. Having Arachnos in Grandville ping yellow to me would really grant a feeling of rulership, control and accomplishment. Likewise, having (possibly invisibly) tracked stats regarding your status with various baddie groups, so that working with - or intimidating - them sufficiently would make them reluctant to engage you would be a fun thing to have as badges: "Invader Ally", "Master/Mistress of the Carnival", "More Trouble than He's/She's Worth" (Malta), "Arbiter Emeritus", "Honorary Freak", "Enemy of the State" (Council), "Gear not Turned but Turning" (Nemesis), that kind of thing. That's just my opinion, of course. |
At lvl 50 mission its not doing anything wrong for me. It gives me at least a position of hig hrank among Arachnos.. and as such respect from its members. So the minions are also my minions. And not against me.
For lvl 50 missions this would be way COOL!
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Average - A new race of aliens arrives on Earth. And Vanguard has you investigate them!
- The Court of the Blood Countess: The Rise of the Blood Countess #3805
Advanced - Go back in time and witness the birth of a vampire. Follow her to key moments in her life in order to stop her! A story of intrigue, drama and horror! Blood & Violence... not recommend to solo!
Wow this topic is rampant with straw man arguments and now hate for PvP! It is like we have regressed back to...well what this game has always been, people saying, "play my way or get out!"
Have any of you people read this topic? Seriously? A LOT of post have been made about how to make villainous arcs that do not involve "blowing up the world." In fact I don't think there are any post that seriously defend the notion that villains should blow up the world and most people are just saying, "why can't my villain ever do ANYTHING?" There are a couple of arcs where villains DO but they are the minority, such as Westen Phipps, and the "greater good" excuse is running dry. That is what people are saying! Not that they want to destroy the world, they just want to be what they are paying to play as, a villain.
No relation to Arachnos!
Part Pack: Now the majority of players know how we, PvPers, have felt for years now. Don't want to be so "civil" now that you have been completly ignored, do you?
Quote:
Thank you. I don't want to end the world, let alone the in-game world. I'm just tired of being knocked back down the totem pole by NPCs and/or told to sit in the corner while my 'benefactors' think of something else to do.|
Originally Posted by Arbiter_Shade
Wow this topic is rampant with straw man arguments and now hate for PvP! It is like we have regressed back to...well what this game has always been, people saying, "play my way or get out!"
Have any of you people read this topic? Seriously? A LOT of post have been made about how to make villainous arcs that do not involve "blowing up the world." In fact I don't think there are any post that seriously defend the notion that villains should blow up the world and most people are just saying, "why can't my villain ever do ANYTHING?" There are a couple of arcs where villains DO but they are the minority, such as Westen Phipps, and the "greater good" excuse is running dry. That is what people are saying! Not that they want to destroy the world, they just want to be what they are paying to play as, a villain. |
I only used the notion that some of my villains would end the world to show that we don't get enough truly villainous work; I'm pretty amazed how everyone wrenched my words around and turned the topic into 50% PvP hate and 50% "VILLAINS HAVE TO LOSE OR ELSE THE GAME WILL BE DELETED".
It'd be nice if everyone making those 'delete your character' arguments would regain a grip on reality.
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Sorry I misunderstood. Some of the truly villainous things that could be done might risk the games current rating. I mean think about it what if they had an arc were your villain approaches the Family with a plan to distribute Superdyne at a Paragon City Middle or High School. And I do not mean the Family asks you to help with their plan. I mean you come up with the plan, you approach the Family, you tell them your plan, you and them negotiate, you set up your dealers in the area around the school clearing out other dealers and or villain groups for being on your turf, maybe have to intimidate a few school administrators and police officers, and then at the end have to defend your distribution warehouse.
The problem with this type of arc is that it really isnt teen rated content and since it would be a part of the official game they risk a PR nightmare when some reporter with a cause or grudge decides to inflame parents because a teen rated game is teaching their children to be drug dealers.
Don't get me wrong content like this would shift the focus from the contacts having all the plans and telling/asking you to do stuff to you being the (wo)man in charge. This would be a good thing. Its just that the level of villainy needs to stay kinda teen rated.
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R"I'm going to beat the Jesus out of Satan!" My Wife while playing Dante's Inferno
Quote:
PVP was always intended for CoH. It was planned since pre-beta. As early as 2002.|
Originally Posted by ShadowMoka
The truth that PVP-lovers will deny is that CoH is not meant for PVP. It only has PVP from popular demand and because all the cool kids were doing it.
|
"However, we do plan to implement an arena where players can engage in "friendly" bouts with one another."
-Rick Dakan
Source: http://www.actiontrip.com/previews/c...heroes_i.phtml
at one of the recent fan gatherings the Devs were asked what they'd want to bring to the game and one of them mentioned they would love for the villains to be able to destroy the world.
That to me means they have it in mind and we may see it actually happen..maybe not sooner than later
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Quote:
That's a half truth, made a quarter truth by being a statement made before City of Heroes was refactored into the game it is now. Its essentially talking about a different game that happened to share the same name as ours, made by a developer that did not factor into the final design of our version of the game**.|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
PVP was always intended for CoH. It was planned since pre-beta. As early as 2002.
"However, we do plan to implement an arena where players can engage in "friendly" bouts with one another." -Rick Dakan Source: http://www.actiontrip.com/previews/c...heroes_i.phtml |
The truth is the devs always told themselves "one day, we'll add PvP" but they did absolutely nothing to ensure that the game could actually support it, either because they deliberately didn't bother, or because they didn't even realize you can't just trivially retrofit PvP into a game that isn't designed to support it.
In other words, the devs statements that they always intended to add PvP have as much value as dev statements that they always intended to move the corporate headquarters to the Sun.
The most accurate statement that can be made is that the original developers intended to *try* to add PvP at some future date. However, they had no idea what that would entail, or how they would go about doing it.
The arena concept is just the setting for PvP: there was exactly zero thought put into whether the powerset and archetypes had any chance of being viable in a PvP setting. The unequivocal evidence for this fact comes from the fact that the devs made many radical PvE-based balancing decisions leading up to launch with no regard for whether the original powersets were proper for PvP, or the altered versions were proper for PvP.
** The game Rick Dakan is talking about never saw the light of day. Here's his answer to another question:
Quote:
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AT: Tell us more about the AI you've induced into villains and NPCs. RD: The Villains use a wide variety of weapons and powers against the heroes. They'll know how to cooperate and combine their effects to get the best result. |
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Some of them yes, but there's still plenty they can do. I agree that example would have someone's undies in a bunch. Maybe one thing we could use is to take the phasing technology, get it on every map villain side with contacts, and then add in options to kill a contact should they anger you. Oh you tricked me into saving Scrapyard's widow? Dead and gone. Maybe add in some special missions that a contact will only give after you threaten to kill them for their trickery. This way the characters are given power, to just kill a contact and affect the world in a way visible to them. So when people team with you and ask why Willie Wheeler doesn't show up on your map, you can just casually say he sent you on one hunt mish too many.
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Originally Posted by Crim_the_Cold
Sorry I misunderstood. Some of the truly villainous things that could be done might risk the games current rating. I mean think about it what if they had an arc were your villain approaches the Family with a plan to distribute Superdyne at a Paragon City Middle or High School. And I do not mean the Family asks you to help with their plan. I mean you come up with the plan, you approach the Family, you tell them your plan, you and them negotiate, you set up your dealers in the area around the school clearing out other dealers and or villain groups for being on your turf, maybe have to intimidate a few school administrators and police officers, and then at the end have to defend your distribution warehouse.
The problem with this type of arc is that it really isnt teen rated content and since it would be a part of the official game they risk a PR nightmare when some reporter with a cause or grudge decides to inflame parents because a teen rated game is teaching their children to be drug dealers. Don't get me wrong content like this would shift the focus from the contacts having all the plans and telling/asking you to do stuff to you being the (wo)man in charge. This would be a good thing. Its just that the level of villainy needs to stay kinda teen rated. |
Allowing me to take over the world... well, let's say I defeat Recluse and thus really impress pretty much the entirety of Arachnos with my sheer bad-self-ness. So much so that no matter their factions, they would only ever fight me in self-defense.
The other Patrons turn on each other that moment, killing one another while trying to kill you; since afterall if they kill you they get to control Arachnos (or they're trying to kill you for 'betraying' Recluse's ideals/goals or for revenge of the death of some other Patron/Lieutenant). This results in every group within Arachnos going to war with the others; Crab Spiders killing Wolf Spiders, Fortunatas mind-wiping the Mu, Banes killing off the Blood Widows, etc and so on.
That's why you can't kill Recluse in the present during the Patron Arcs; his death at your hands tears Arachnos apart, and why you end up going into the future to kill him there.
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