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It's interesting to note that this is where true evil lies. Those mustache twirling cardboard cutouts are entirely fake, as no one ever really believes they are evil. The evil ones are always the ones that oppose you, and who are not like you.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
And you know this...how? Because it flies in the face of a lot of very accomplished AI programmers' theories... Or is your answer going to involve some pseudo-spiritual drivel?
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It may take a long time for it to happen, but if such technological progression continues, then it's guaranteed to happen; whether by accident or on purpose, or even both at once. That's when the "it's just a toaster" attitude will go from being merely silly to being downright dangerous. They will not just fail to recognize the soul in the machine, they will outright deny its existence. It's easy to destroy something if you're convinced that it has no feelings, or that those feelings do not matter. All the while those doing the destroying will proclaim to be the "good guys".
It reminds me of a passage from the book of Romans: "What shall we say about such wonderful things as these? If God is for us, who can ever be against us?" In the end, I'm afraid that such closed mindedness will be the death of us all.
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And they are never going to get that chance in an MMO, because in an MMO we need the world tomorrow. You'll only get that chance in a single player game, which would also tend to end the game.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
If Supervillain A was going to push the red button to destroy the world, at least 4 of my characters would knock him aside and push the button themselves, laughing until the lights went out.
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The notion that the game should provide you the option to destroy the universe and then escape into another one because that's your backstory is at best impractical, and at worst ludicrous.
Sure, the devs could write the villain side better. I've often commented that I truly believe the reason why the villain side stories tend to be poor villain portrayals is because fundamentally the writers generally don't believe in it. The game depicts true villainy as either twisted, sick, delusional, or insane. It never depicts evil as just deciding not to follow everyone else's rules, or just being out for number one, or just deciding that good doesn't work. I once told Positron that I wanted to see villainy range from the Joker to Magneto, but the game tends to present evil as a range from Eric Cartman to the Human Centipede.
But even so, there are limits. The hero side is nearly as limited as the evil side in motive and perspective. At the end of the day, the world is going to be a certain way after the story ends, and all storylines go there by fiat. You can write a backstory that contradicts the game world or requires choices unsupported by the game world, but to expect the game world to honor them when you deliberately go that far outside the box is foolhardy.
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In which case complaining that Evil can't win is a fictitious notion to begin with.
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Originally Posted by Haetron
This is also setting an incorrect standard for the co-existing RP experience, and isn't even true in CoV. How many banks does the average villain player get to rob, how many police officers do they get to disable/murder, all without facing a real consequence for said actions?
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
What this game needs is a possibility for mission interruptions.
Make a mission that heroes run that Villains can join in at the ''worst'' possible time to complicate things. Or a ''betray'' option, or something fun that can spoil the mission. The villains will have to deal with not getting loot for doing it, and the heroes will have to take it all in stride.
Or make a trial like instance where 1/2 are heroes (4), and (4) are villains; enter on opposite sides and turn it into a PVP brawl with tasks on either side that are needed to be completed before a timer runs out, or something.
I also think villains being ushered towards heroism is a tad ridiculous.
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Yep, and I said as much, earlier in the thread. Some people have their standards of "Win" set unrealistically. |
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
In which case complaining that Evil can't win is a fictitious notion to begin with.
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I was just quoting your post because on the opposite side, its an argument that a lot of hero side players use as a counter argument to the "Why can't villains win" posts and just saying "Evil can't win" is a completely false, and for gameplay purposes, unfair concept.
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If only there was some sort of mission creating tool complainers could use to create their own content. Then the Devs could put access to it in almost every zone in the game. Oh if only such a thing existed then this poor unfortunate could create the type of missions that they want to play!
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Is anyone else getting tired of being labeled a hero at the last minute? Some REAL villainy would be nice. Killing Alexis Cole-Duncan? Hell yes. Roughing up Johnny Sonata so he'll record a song capable of trashing Sister Psyche's brain? Alright then! Firing a warhead at Paragon to get the attention of big-name heroes just so they'll look the other way? DAMN RIGHT! . |
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This is a great idea, and due to random server glitching, has actually happened! |
Originally Posted by Lulipop
What this game needs is a possibility for mission interruptions.
Make a mission that heroes run that Villains can join in at the ''worst'' possible time to complicate things. Or a ''betray'' option, or something fun that can spoil the mission. The villains will have to deal with not getting loot for doing it, and the heroes will have to take it all in stride. Or make a trial like instance where 1/2 are heroes (4), and (4) are villains; enter on opposite sides and turn it into a PVP brawl with tasks on either side that are needed to be completed before a timer runs out, or something. I also think villains being ushered towards heroism is a tad ridiculous. |
A friend of mine was once ported into a villains mayhem mission, and both were PVP flagged, so my friend was able to "send them to jail" so to speak. Mind you, she was on a level 50 and it was a level 15ish mayhem, so she was also not a jerk afterwards and let the person go ahead and finish after the initial HAHA moment.
This is something I think a part of the playerbase would like, but due to the majority of the playerbase being very anti-PVP, I don't think we'll ever see it. Which is a shame, because it's really what the comic hero/villain genre is based around, and it's not like there's any negative impacts to losing a PVP encounter.
I'm just popping in here to say that I am 1000% behind Nalrok on this one.
No, that's not a typo.
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I'd love to see this. It'd be a great way to revive interest in PvP.
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Originally Posted by Lulipop
What this game needs is a possibility for mission interruptions.
Make a mission that heroes run that Villains can join in at the ''worst'' possible time to complicate things. Or a ''betray'' option, or something fun that can spoil the mission. The villains will have to deal with not getting loot for doing it, and the heroes will have to take it all in stride. Or make a trial like instance where 1/2 are heroes (4), and (4) are villains; enter on opposite sides and turn it into a PVP brawl with tasks on either side that are needed to be completed before a timer runs out, or something. I also think villains being ushered towards heroism is a tad ridiculous. |
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I think the answer is simple: The next arc needs to have the heroes doing something utterly evil and despicable for "the greater good".
And I want to be on a team with Golden Girl when that arc comes out just to see her squirm.
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Originally Posted by Lulipop
What this game needs is a possibility for mission interruptions.
Make a mission that heroes run that Villains can join in at the ''worst'' possible time to complicate things. Or a ''betray'' option, or something fun that can spoil the mission. The villains will have to deal with not getting loot for doing it, and the heroes will have to take it all in stride. Or make a trial like instance where 1/2 are heroes (4), and (4) are villains; enter on opposite sides and turn it into a PVP brawl with tasks on either side that are needed to be completed before a timer runs out, or something. I also think villains being ushered towards heroism is a tad ridiculous. |
As awesome as that would be, it would be completely hated by the majority of the players. The outcry of "griefing" would crash the forums and it would end up getting reworked.
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I believe the devs believe this, and that's why villain arcs tend to be written with the villains at best breaking even. |
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
At the end of the day, it's a given that Evil loses. No one is being forced to choose the losing side. Choosing to be on the losing team and then complaining that you can't win is... well, appropriate behaviour for a cartoon villain I suppose.
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But does every villain always lose? Of course the villain that wants to destroy the Earth tends to lose, because the destruction of Earth tends to curtail story telling opportunities in most cases. But does Hannibal Lecter lose at the end of The Silence of the Lambs? Consider Wanted (the comic, not the movie). And Kaiser Soze certainly didn't lose in the end.
In comics, some of the best villains do not, by most standards, consistently lose. The Joker is often caught, but only after his plans come to fruition. Dr. Doom seems to break even on the "take control of the world, lose control of the world" score. I can't even begin to compile a score for Magneto, but he most definitely didn't always lose. And in the movies, you could argue that in X2 he's actually the biggest winner.
In City of Heroes, there's a villain that always wins. And its Westin Phipps. The devs can write villains that always win. They just clearly don't seem to think too highly of the situation.
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You'd only be able to play it "that way" for about 20 minutes, by which time someone will have beaten you to the punch and destroyed the world.| Perhaps someday there'll be a game where we can play this way. |
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| I think the answer is simple: The next arc needs to have the heroes doing something utterly evil and despicable for "the greater good". |
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Who knows? Maybe the villain version of the final SSA will be the villains helping to save the world, then when they are all patting themselves on the back, you as the villain just "off" Darin Wade (thus needing a replacement for him too).
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
That's not what I'm asking at all, though I think you have the gist of it down. What I really want to see is more villainy. Every time our villains are about to take that final step into glory, some storyline-important NPC steps in and does one of the following:
-Sells you out, making you the fall guy -Laughs in your face and tells you you've just been doing his errands -Sits back down and says "and now we wait" It's not satisfying at all. Heroside, players get the satisfaction of stopping the bad guys and saving the day. Villainside, players get to be lackeys for bigger villains and, afterward, are politely told to go home and wait for the next opportunity. |
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Several movies have done a great job at looking at what the moral ramifications of how we regard "true thinking AIs" would be. AI, Bicentennial Man, and even I, Robot ( Yes, wasn't a great movie, but the questions it explored were still good thinking points ). AI was actually my favorite of the batch. Lotta folks didn't like it because it was too "weird", but that's exactly why I loved it. |
Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
It's interesting to note that this is where true evil lies. Those mustache twirling cardboard cutouts are entirely fake, as no one ever really believes they are evil. The evil ones are always the ones that oppose you, and who are not like you.
It may take a long time for it to happen, but if such technological progression continues, then it's guaranteed to happen; whether by accident or on purpose, or even both at once. That's when the "it's just a toaster" attitude will go from being merely silly to being downright dangerous. They will not just fail to recognize the soul in the machine, they will outright deny its existence. It's easy to destroy something if you're convinced that it has no feelings, or that those feelings do not matter. All the while those doing the destroying will proclaim to be the "good guys". |
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You could just as easily argue that heroside players get to be lackeys that do nothing but stop a villain, sometimes after its too late, and return everything back to the status quo. The heroes do not get to permanently improve the world in any significant fashion, and the notion that heroism is about the status quo is equally suspect as villainy being about destroying it. Sometimes the villain wants to preserve the status quo, because the status quo is what works best for them - I mentioned Phipps above, and he's the posterboy example of someone exercising villainy not by trying to destroy the status quo and therefore losing, but trying to preserve the status quo and therefore winning (and in spectacularly nauseating fashion besides).
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
It's not satisfying at all. Heroside, players get the satisfaction of stopping the bad guys and saving the day. Villainside, players get to be lackeys for bigger villains and, afterward, are politely told to go home and wait for the next opportunity.
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Anything with two sides will always fail because of side stacking. If they had something with 3 sides like Heroes vs Villains vs Shivans then the two weaker sides could team up on the more powerful side.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
I'd love to see this. It'd be a great way to revive interest in PvP.
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Well, here's the thing... This is a game based on comic book superheroes. That scenario is pretty rare there. Villains joining up with heroes for the "greater good", however, isn't rare at all. Although it often comes with a backstab somewhere along the line. |
Originally Posted by Antigonus
I think the answer is simple: The next arc needs to have the heroes doing something utterly evil and despicable for "the greater good".
And I want to be on a team with Golden Girl when that arc comes out just to see her squirm. |
And, yeah, overplayed plot hooks are pretty much expected with comic book plots, so they're keeping true there as well. ;p
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I don't do evil content, and I don't squirm - unless I'm like sitting on a hard chair with no cushion - that's kinda uncomfortable after a while |
Originally Posted by Antigonus
I think the answer is simple: The next arc needs to have the heroes doing something utterly evil and despicable for "the greater good".
And I want to be on a team with Golden Girl when that arc comes out just to see her squirm. |
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I have never felt that red side is really villainous... I've also proposed several solutions in the past, but it would require a whole new system to be introduced... like having a system where you can select something like an arc like "I want to build a bomb" you would then be presented with missions that would get you pieces to build that bomb... and then once you got that bomb you would then get a selection of "threaten to destroy the city" where you have to place the bomb(s) (you'd have to do more missions and build more bombs for different plans) in a specific spot... followed up by a mission to invade a tv network and deliver a message and then depending on some variable determines whether you are successful or not like having to fight a more iconic hero.
I haven't read past the first page, because it's the same old argument over and over again. But the way I see it, a villain would take one of the following options:
1: Go to Paragon City, and run around yelling "OMG guys, Darrin Wade is going to steal the power of Rularuu and he's gonna eat the universe and we're all gonna die!!!!" Wait for heroes to rush off, en masse, to stop him. While they're occupied, steal everything that isn't nailed down.
2: Start trying to find out how Wade did it, so we can do something similar ourselves.
3: Break into Portal Corp. Find a nice dimension that Nemesis doesn't rule. Go there. Make popcorn.
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Not if all parties understand that griefing is part of it. I mean there's no way around it if they did implement something of that nature. Not really one sided either unless the other team is built specifically for annoyance rather than fighting. I'd personally jump into the frey everyday until it was nerfed just to find a way to tick off hero players, just like a villain should.
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Originally Posted by Antigonus
As awesome as that would be, it would be completely hated by the majority of the players. The outcry of "griefing" would crash the forums and it would end up getting reworked.
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It isn't always about winning or losing. Whenever I play a competitive game, I don't always mind losing as long as I put up a big enough fight and a flashy enough show while going out.
An idea that I had before I realized that AE didn't have victoroy/defeat chains was for there to be a mission arc where, as a villain, you build up a massive army and then lead them into battle against the heroes, but ultimately get defeated at the end. There would be a mechanic in the final mission where the enemies would not only be endless, but also slowly getting stronger due to a map wide Defense, To-Hit, and damage buff that would kick in and then slowly ramp up over time. After awhile, the Heroes (even signature Heroes) and the besieging enemies would become invincible, unavoidable, high damaging enemies. Then, people would be bragging about how long they could last in a mission like that.
A second idea would be a mission in a custom map where you have defenses that can slow down and make vulnerable the endless horde of nearly indestructible hero enemies, but these defense systems slowly fail due to damage and what not. So, the mission is where you have to keep backtracking into the base, until the end where you hop in an escape pod and set the self destruct button.
It would be really hard to pull off due to programming issues, but it sounded like a fun project to undertake one day.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
In talking to Dr. Aeon, I know for a fact that he does everything in his power to convey a truly villainous experience, but please understand that we cannot take each and every character, origin or backstory into account. Don't get me wrong, we would *love* to give you all the opportunity to take over or destroy the world
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I had a thought while reading your reply, so just for the heck of it, here goes: We have Primal Earth, Praetorian Earth, Warrior Earth and Reichsman's home dimension. But shouldn't there be more "copies" of our universe out there? I'm thinking somewhere there should be a large number of somewhat divergent Earths.
So make a number of dimensions (or one dimension with several programmable options) where we can save it or destroy it as we please. Then that dimension will be permanently attached to our character, and we could go there when we please, or even there may be some missions (Portal Corp?) where we go there. It could work a bit like bases, although with a lot less options. Just save or destroy, some options for how much destruction, and some options for killing (or saving) certain NPCs, and how much the public loves or fears or loathes or doesn't care about our character.
Hard to do, as I'm seeing several zones worth of work here, but could be fun.
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