The Well, Praetoria, and Incarnates; Problems with Writing?
By
AkuTenshiiZero,
Posted on: 2012-01-14 01:40 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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In general, I agree that one should just ignore the lore that is problematic.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
That disappoint is compounded by the insane sentience of the giver of power - which is why I felt compelled to retcon the story in my own head as above.
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For me, there came a point at which even retconning in my head was getting trumped by the increasing intrusion of the Devs with the Insane Sentient Well. Statesman turned out to be an "incarnate" of Zeus, blah blah. Well, "gods" and all that have been a comic staple for a long time, and this was a hand-wave-to-the-weird-stuff sort of Zeus. "Incarnation" means something quite specific, though, and the Devs then upped the ante by saying that you had to become an "Incarnate" before proceeding. As long as it was ME who got to choose just who was "incarnating" my hero, that still was not a deal-breaker, and there seemed to be some work-arounds suggested in the lore. But then the Devs went out of their way to close every possible loophole and make it Official Lore that you were being "incarnated" by the Insane Sentient Well who could take you over like a puppet whenever it chose... unless a single statement by a life-stealing gal who has not revealed her own origins can be taken at total face value, which is a pretty thin reed to lean on. The Well is "Incarnated" into you to the exclusion of all other possibilities.
For me, that took it into the realm of having to join an infamous party from history and officially wear an armband. I cannot hand-wave that armband the Devs are forcing on us away, so I am not proceeding.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
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Exibit A: Me.
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Originally Posted by Xanatos
You misunderstand. Golden Girl says that people are looking forward to new praetorian content.
Who are these people? Prove it. Show me them. People on the forum disliking it is absolutely irrelevant here. Golden Girl is making a claim. I'm asking her for the evidence to back that up. |
Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
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Lol considering one of the complaints is "well, why are there all these incarnates here? I thought I was the most powerful", perhaps it will mitigate that so not everyone is incarnating all their characters to max all the time and instead, think of a concept that *does* work with the lore and only have a few.|
Originally Posted by Melancton
I cannot hand-wave that armband the Devs are forcing on us away, so I am not proceeding.
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I mean, is it that you can't think of a concept that does fit? Or that you won't?
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Well sure. But even the ingame explanation says that every non-Incarnate super lays claim to power without help or even permission from the Well. They don't even have to know it literally exists.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Yes, it is, but it's all yours. It all comes from you. Calling it anything else cheapens the concept.
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| The goal of Rikti War I and II was to stop the Rikti from invading us. We stopped the Rikti from invading us. Ergo, we won the war. Saying we didn't because we never went to their homeworld and they had us outnumbered is like saying the Americans didn't win their revolutionary war because they didn't actually go to England and punch the king in the face. If you get what you're fighting for, you've won, and a diplomatic victory is still a victory. |
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Originally Posted by Issen
Pandora's Box
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Yes, of course. And we take great pains to ignore it, too. Because it's crap, and it seeks to define, or re-define our characters, as it were. It also makes one wonder where the Oranbegans got the powers to have an advanced magical civilization 14 000 years ago, long before Pandora's Box was opened.
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Originally Posted by Melancton
For me, that took it into the realm of having to join an infamous party from history and officially wear an armband. I cannot hand-wave that armband the Devs are forcing on us away, so I am not proceeding.
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61866 - A Series of Unfortunate Kidnappings - More than a coincidence?
2260 - The Burning of Hearts - A green-eyed monster holds the match.
379248 - The Spider Without Fangs - NEW - Some lessons learned (more or less.)
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It isn't really either of those. I cannot say "armbandlolz" and wear it anyway. It is treating something as trivial that is not trivial at all.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I mean, is it that you can't think of a concept that does fit? Or that you won't?
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There was another game long ago in which one of episodes offered great power, but you had to kneel at an altar and worship the deity there as God and receive the great power as a servant of that god. That was a deal-breaker for me as well, so I skipped it.
There was no necessity for the Devs to be as thoroughly ham-handed about this in the lore as they have been. They needlessly caused this problem for me, and that is my only complaint. I have no problem with players that are going the Incarnate route; as I have said before, that does not make them "such-and-suches" that they would do that, etc. It is entirely personal.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
I'm not someone to multi-quote so I'll just respond with what I can.
Pandora's Box seemed to work ok for most explanations of power in game. It was open only a crack before Cole and Richter opened it wide, heralding the dawn of a new age of heroism. So anything before the Well was discovered could still be powered from that source due to it being open a little way. However, the box was only mentioned in the Web of Arachnos novel and IIRC, has never been mentioned in game. I also seem to recall that the novels have always been regarded as 'secondary' lore i.e. not a reliable source of information. Which is a shame as they're a lot better than some of the other sources. 
Either way, Pandora's Box and the Well were vague, out of sight mechanisms that allowed players to create anything they wanted without having to differ to some almighty power source for them to progress. Once we hit 50 though, the only way to progress is through the Well (or Wells, depending on species), regardless of your origin. IMHO, this is sloppy. How we came about our powers has never been mentioned in character creation, leaving players free to create any concept they please. But at level 50, it's lumped on us, forcing us into a strict method of progression. And it's not like the developers didn't have a chance to change this, they just redid the tutorial so there's no real excuses for not establishing Well lore there.
As for the Rikti, I do still think they were a far more viable threat than Praetoria. They had an entire world to call on, the ability to open thousands of portals across the globe simultaneously, have vast motherships and a network of mind linked soldiers. Plus, don't forget, we were fighting them at a time when we didn't have teleporters or medical bays as that technology was reverse engineered from Rikti tech. Sealing off their dimension from ours was a sensible, logical choice. And yet this three island state, barely recovered from humanity almost being wiped out is left free to open portals to ours? Why? Because every nation on earth is happy to take the word of a guy from the future who may be Nemesis and a demigod who has never played straight with humanity from the start? For me, it just stretches suspension of disbelief too far. Just adding 'because the Well says so' to Praetoria doesn't make it more awesome or dangerous, it's just lazy as is using the same AVs we kicked around not a level or two ago.
This kind of inconsistency is rife in Incarnate lore. We can blow up Warwalkers with no problem in the Sutter TF but in the Apex TF, they're tough cookies. When we attack Praetoria in the Tin Mage TF, non-incarnates are hit by some bizarre 'anti-non-incarnate ray' that gives them a -4 level debuff. And yet this effect is never applied in any iTrial. It's as if the developers come up with the trials then just patch together whatever lore they can to justify it, no matter how patchy it is.
I agree with Eva, it was the Origin of Power arc that first showed signs of a shift in the lore towards the worse. That appeared to be the first attempt of the new writers to reconcile 'the old stories' with the 'new ones we want to tell'. Now bringing in new writers is obviously going to happen, the folks that wrote some of the old stories are long gone. But they shouldn't be trying to retcon everything to support the new (and IMHO) inferior stories. Vincent Ross' arc is a prime example of this.
I've stated before and I still stand by my belief that the current developers of CoX have little appreciation for what it is that make CoX so great:
1) The feeling of being a hero (or villain),
2) being the centre of the story and
3) totally free to create any conceivable character
are three of the key things that make CoX fun. The fourth tier is, I believe, having a convincing and consistent world to do those two things in. Incarnate content gives none of that flexibility or consistency and its clash with 'old lore' is jarring. Perhaps this isn't so visible to newer players but to some of us, it's a big disappointment.
(Apologies for the wall of text, I only get small windows of time to post in so it all comes out in a big jumble.)
EDIT: I've just remembered the final thought I had: the rumours of the 'third way' that was mentioned at the Player Summit. I'm not one to make idle bets but I'm willing to wager that that's going to be a 'non-defined, non-Well' method to try and satisfy the complaints made about the extremely narrow Incarnate lore. If it is, then they may manage to pull this mess back out of the fire. If not then... well, I'll have to see.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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Right, sorry. Wasn't specifically asking you, it was more a general question people seem to have with a piece of lore.|
Originally Posted by Melancton
It is entirely personal.
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You've got these posters saying they have natural girls who are just awesome at manipulating ambient electricity or robots from the beginning of time and what not that *would not* accept some boost from a pool they don't like.
Well, don't.
But does that mean you can't create a concept or story that does incorporate these points? Is it that we're misconstruing the concept of our characters being a part of a universe with a history and laws, want to gain power, but are at odds with these laws? Such that, an incarnate or a god is the ultimate of power in this universe and therefore one must seek *that* power to surpass these laws and limits of *THIS* universe?
I don't have any deep threaded investment in the incarnate system myself, so maybe that's why I'm not seeing red when I read the story or play the game. But then I tend to consider every piece of fiction as its own little universe with its own laws, limits and history. I can create my universe and be its god, dictate its rules, tell of its past and live in it, but when I go on vacation to another universe, that is no longer the case. I'm bound by their rules and have no power except the 1; I can transport myself from that universe when I please.
Is the Well a problem? It can be if you let it. But I kind of cringe when people complain that 'there's no longer freedom' when it comes to concept or whatever, as if the laws that dictate this universe are somehow only *NOW* limiting them.
AFAISI, the well is the source of all power, the devs are the gods that control it and I must abide by their rules while I inhabit their universe. Otherwise, I'd be able to make my melee defender, have whatever animations I want, make my *really* powerful characters simply be lvl 285, and so on. But the universe has laws. Incarnate power comes from a Well. Not everything literally was pulled out of its waters, but the universe there is all linked to it in some way. I can accept that. Call me narrow minded, or self limiting, but I find it explains *ALL* limitations of this game and any other.
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Originally Posted by Issen
Okay...this constantly comes up in any thread involving these three, with folks like Eva and Venture tearing into the writing.
However, I've pretty much never been able to get a concrete reason or explanation for this unbridled hatred of this particular set of stories. I mean honestly, what are these "plot holes" that supposedly exist or are created by this content? |
OP, to really clarify just what everyone has said, to shorten what everyone's wrote, to convey the feelings of all whom have posted, and to sum up the raw emotion displayed through text to answer your question in regards to the topic: '' THIS NOT VIDYA GAM3! IT RE4L LIFE! ''
Issen, there's no plot holes or snoops, snippets or curves. There is no rain on your parade, and the spoon truly is there. It's people forgetting they are playing a game created by developers of a company for other people to pay to play about some tights wearing guys and gals' stories. That's about it. It's not really about the players, it's about how the players build their powers to go at the enemy in the trials.
So to /thread this discussion, and past arguments:
Devs do what Devs do.
Players continue to pay, or spend money occasionally for points.
There you go.
P.S
The writing's on the wall..
Again, I'm pressed for time so this will be limited:
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Yes, we can handwave away what we don't like. The problem is that we have to.| But does that mean you can't create a concept or story that does incorporate these points? |
What's more, in a very real sense, you can't handwave away what you don't like. Yes, you can make up whatever you want and if that's what gets you through the night baby, whatever. But gluing feathers on a rat doesn't make it a swan. The canon is what it is. The story you've made up in your head to make it palatable has no currency here. It means absolutely nothing when we're evaluating the quality of the work.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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Right, that has more to do with not liking the story so ignoring it. That's not what I'm talking about though and is honestly not that different from characters that are simply jokes without actual regard for the in-game lore (not downing on people that handwave the lore away, just saying that it's similar in its basic form).|
Originally Posted by Venture
Yes, we can handwave away what we don't like. The problem is that we have to.
What's more, in a very real sense, you can't handwave away what you don't like. Yes, you can make up whatever you want and if that's what gets you through the night baby, whatever. But gluing feathers on a rat doesn't make it a swan. The canon is what it is. The story you've made up in your head to make it palatable has no currency here. It means absolutely nothing when we're evaluating the quality of the work. |
I'm talking about actually incorporating the lore itself into the concept. For a short example: We know the power the well grants is persistent and when the wielder of that power perishes, the power does not and can be passed to any. I've got a character who is the 'incarnate' of Cerberus, the guardian of 'Hades'. Well, he is the guardian of the 'Hades Well of the Furies', basically when a god or incarnate somehow perishes, he tosses that power back into the well but must forever be chained to that place. Long story short, he tricks the other gods to free him to search for a 'leak' in the well (that he created), freeing him of his timeless incarceration. Now he schemes to gain the wells power because if he has to choose to be literally chained to the well or figuratively by the well's will, he'd choose the latter since at least one comes with the perk of more power.
Of course, that's a direct link to the well but it's not out of possibility to conceptualize a secondary link or motive to specifically seek out the well's power.
But none of this helps if you think the lore is doodie. The story is what you take from it, and you can choose to take nothing from it.
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This, really, is the saddest part. The Incarnate Oops is not an unexpected error, or the result of somehow unpredictable circumstances. Someone proposed that all player powers be explained by the same source and someone else thought it was a good idea, then approved it. At some point in development, there was at least one person convinced that players would enjoy having creative control taken away from them, and convinced enough to wrap an entire, extremely costly section of the whole game into it. One would think this sort of thing requires a tad more forward planning.|
Originally Posted by Melancton
There was no necessity for the Devs to be as thoroughly ham-handed about this in the lore as they have been. They needlessly caused this problem for me, and that is my only complaint. I have no problem with players that are going the Incarnate route; as I have said before, that does not make them "such-and-suches" that they would do that, etc. It is entirely personal.
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I get what they're trying to do - they're trying to craft a "cinematic experience," like what you'd get out of Mass Effect or Saints Row or Dragon Age, entirely forgetting that these games, despite having customization elements, have nowhere near the freedom that City of Heroes has. They have a plot, characters are beholden to this plot and the story drives them along this plot. This is not what City of Heroes is, and one look through the Role Playing forum would reveal that. Many, many people come here to tell their own stories.
Seeing City of Heroes as a story is a mistake, largely because that's not what we treat it as. City of Heroes is a setting. This is a city full of heroes and villains that our characters were either born in, or very commonly simply came to for various reasons. Much of our characters' stories take place outside the city and before the city. The history of our characters does not begin the moment we show up in Galaxy City and have the Statesman punched directly into our mouths. This is merely the point where we join our characters and start following their adventures, but it is not the point where their adventure starts.
Let's look at the 90s Fox Cartoon X-Men for a moment. Where does the story start? Granted, for Jubilee, it starts at the beginning, but for everyone else? Not so much. The X-Men already exist, they have a base, they have active membership, they have old friends and sworn enemies, they have been activists for a long time, they have trained, they have fought and they have amassed a long history of past experiences. The day we start the story is just that one day when big things start happening, but big things have happened for many years before, too. We'll just cover those as either flashbacks or character development.
City of Heroes is the setting that our characters' adventures take place in, and it defines the loose sequence of adventures we go through, but City of Heroes IS NOT the story of our characters. No, our characters are our own, because their story is our own to write, and our own to fit within the persistent world... Or fit the persistent world to it, if it comes to that *coughoriginofpowerscough* Sorry, I'm coming down with something.
The point is that the storytelling in this game needs to stop sticking its nose in my business and telling me how to write my characters. Let me handle that, you just focus on giving me stuff to do. I'll worry about WHY I'm doing it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Alright, thanks everyone for taking the time to have this discussion with me. It was a topic that was constantly confusing me. And also thank you for discussing it in such a calm and reasonable manner. Proof once again that City of Heroes has (in my personal opinion of course) pretty much the best player community for any game I've played.
I certainly do understand the position you're in, even if I don't necessary agree with it. I myself have never had a problem with the way the game was written, but then, I admit I never had to watch the game evolve first-hand, my knowledge comes strictly from the Wiki and whatever is told in-game.
And I'm not saying your points are valid critiques either. I can certainly see where, if I were of the stance that such things were something I felt was important to my storytelling, that I would standing right with you in agreement. Even so, I do respect your position and wish there was some kind of middle ground that could be reached.
In any case, thanks for the discussion! At this point you've all answered any questions I had, so you're welcome to keep discussing if you wish, but you've more than satisfied my curiosity. Thank you! 
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The Well 'lore' can eat my shiny metal rear end.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Lol considering one of the complaints is "well, why are there all these incarnates here? I thought I was the most powerful", perhaps it will mitigate that so not everyone is incarnating all their characters to max all the time and instead, think of a concept that *does* work with the lore and only have a few.
I mean, is it that you can't think of a concept that does fit? Or that you won't? |
My 'Incarnate level' characters powers so far;
Alpha: Alpha is a genius level robot a penchant for stealing or simply building high tech equipment. He's been around for a long time; now he's really, really good at it. When you get in fights with people who can punch out space-ships, you tend to fight back with higher power shield and even shootier lasers.
Chief Centurion Z1: The Chief is a mechanoid alien. He's a mixture of scientist, doctor and highly powerful warrior. He's always learning, always picking up new tricks, and has, really, always been one hell of a tough nut to crack.
Kitsune Vixen: A human/kitsune hybrid mutant, Vix's psychic and empathic powers only get better with practice and inner focus. As Earth, her home and her friends are forced more and more into danger, she focuses more and more on how she can best protect them and the citizens of Paragon. That dedication and refusal to give up is what drives and empowers her. She's always had potential, now she's having to push herself to the limit.
Umbral Nightwalker: An amoral Nictus scientist can do quite well in the Rogue Isles, more so when you can get quick and fast results simply by paying mercs. It's even better when you have no use for human currency. Nightwalker has spent all his time working on his ultimate goal, the further evolution and perfection of the Nictus race. His experiments are slowly bearing fruit, even more so as more varied and powerful opponents present themselves for harvesting of samples and new ways to prolong his already considerable lifespan and augment his power. He will not rest until he has found what he considers his 'cure' for the Nictus.
No need for the puddle of annoyance at all. I have reasons I'm perfectly happy with that explain increased powers. End of.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I'm kinda bored with all the DA IS THE NEW PRAE talk. I've done the story line and there is a bit of Prae in there. Diabolique is not the big bad. She is just a little part of a bigger story. There are like 2-3 missions with Prae Duncan in and us tracking down Diabolique then her personal story. Then a trial against Mot, not Prae. There is a bit of Prae used but it isn't OMG COLE EVERYWHERE like the other trials. This is something Primal side. DA has advanced so much story line. It has ended the Knives of Artemis, wiped out 1-2 Prae villian groups, possibly the Tsoo, shown us the barest extent of what Malta has their sticky fingers in and made them a much bigger threat to us. It has ended the DA storyline in a way and given us a chance to see people who we have helped before. It gives some more info on the Victor Van stuff, shown us that Arachnos may be about to have a power struggle, that maybe the Circle of Thorns isn't all bad or if they are 100% evil, they at least did something good and wrapped up Cimoria in a way I would be happy to leave it at. DA is not Prae 2.0.
I think we have like 1 or 2 more Prae trials, so 1 issue or so before we start moving onto Rularuu and stuff or fighting Oroborousususususus. With MoM and the failed mindwash of the Prae world, I really feel like Cole is going oh bugger and we are close to winning. I'm kinda hoping Hami prae isn't a trial but a raid like Primal Hami with the options like primal hami.
As for the well, we aren't really drinking from it like Statesman or Recluse. They took the fast root to power. We are going the slower root and going on the evidence of Lady Grey, we can control the well, not be controlled by it.
Now, if you really care that much about source of your powers, you can probably come up with a reason yourself for your powers. Solid light holograms and more efficient lasers etc. I'm a crab spider and I chose rebirth, cardiac, cimoerians and vorpal. Cardiac is me improving myself with the Vandal Suit and better lasers. The Cimoerians are the descendents of Cimoerians who are my sidekicks. Rebirth is me rallying my allies giving them the strength to fight on and Vorpal is using portal tech and a powerful kick.
My main problem with the well is that it is the only choice. There are other ways I can think to empower myself. Nanites, the Voice of Creation Dedelus sometimes hears etc If it said that the Well has many forms and stuff like that, I would be happy.
I enjoy the writing for things like DA but I found the inital lore a bit lacking
-The Hat
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The Avs might feel the same way about having to fight heroes who were 45-50 the last time they fought them, but are now 50+1-50+3.|
Originally Posted by Dante
Just adding 'because the Well says so' to Praetoria doesn't make it more awesome or dangerous, it's just lazy as is using the same AVs we kicked around not a level or two ago.
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The argument against using the Praetorians in the Incarnate content is silly - dangerous villaisn don't accept defeat - if heroes beat them, they just find new ways to become even more powerful and then try and defeat the heroes again - returning villains are a major feature of comicbooks.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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So the short answer is, you won't. Didn't even have to read the rest |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
The Well 'lore' can eat my shiny metal rear end.
No need for the puddle of annoyance at all. I have reasons I'm perfectly happy with that explain increased powers. End of. |
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Yes, I refuse to acknowledge lore than is worse than what I could write in my sleep. A nutless monkey could do better than the current, mad sentient Well lore. It's that simple.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
So the short answer is, you won't. Didn't even have to read the rest
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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[Edited for Irrelevance.]
61866 - A Series of Unfortunate Kidnappings - More than a coincidence?
2260 - The Burning of Hearts - A green-eyed monster holds the match.
379248 - The Spider Without Fangs - NEW - Some lessons learned (more or less.)
The ArchVillains need some kind of explanation as to why they're a threat again. Most comic book villains don't just show up again and are automatically threatening, the ones who do are guys like Green Goblin and the Joker. They're high-end from the start. Almost all villains, when they return, have a new trick up their sleeve.
And anyone saying that the story is fine because you can completely ignore it is really just admitting that the story is terrible. Some of us are only here for the story (or setting, or characters, or whatever) in the first place. If the story is terrible, we're done.
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Which is what we get from Prometheus and Ramiel.
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Originally Posted by RuthlessSamael
The ArchVillains need some kind of explanation as to why they're a threat again.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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How I would have written the well:|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The Techbot speaks the truth. The Well is not a bad idea in general, but it's its execution which sinks it hard.
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It wouldnt just exist, it would have been created, long ago, by a group/race/civilisation (we could call them the Furies) that had just, almost, lost a war with a singularly being who was so powerful it threatened all of existence. Fearing that another individual may one day achieve similar levels of power, the Furies created a maguffin (call it The Well) that placed a throttle (a limiter if you will) on the amount of personal power a single individual could acquire.
However, knowing that such things were never perfect, they needed a fail-safe. So they made The Well semi-sentient, able to relax its on restrictions on select individuals in a controlled manner so if a threat to the universe were to arise that the limited forces of good could not deal with, The Well, could ensure that powerful Champions would be able to step up to the plate.
That would be the mechanics of it anyway, actual 'writing' should probably be left up to those who actually can (i.e. not me)
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Originally Posted by Issen
Alright, thanks everyone for taking the time to have this discussion with me. It was a topic that was constantly confusing me. And also thank you for discussing it in such a calm and reasonable manner. Proof once again that City of Heroes has (in my personal opinion of course) pretty much the best player community for any game I've played.
I certainly do understand the position you're in, even if I don't necessary agree with it. I myself have never had a problem with the way the game was written, but then, I admit I never had to watch the game evolve first-hand, my knowledge comes strictly from the Wiki and whatever is told in-game. And I'm not saying your points are valid critiques either. I can certainly see where, if I were of the stance that such things were something I felt was important to my storytelling, that I would standing right with you in agreement. Even so, I do respect your position and wish there was some kind of middle ground that could be reached. In any case, thanks for the discussion! At this point you've all answered any questions I had, so you're welcome to keep discussing if you wish, but you've more than satisfied my curiosity. Thank you! |
I'm very glad that one of these threads can be of use and can be discussed amicably.
In all honesty, I do see that the Devs are in a tricky situation. They need to give us new, thrilling events and more pretty pixels to shoot at and there will be those who are satisfied with just that. But the story is what holds all those events together and for some of us, it's a very important aspect especially when you have a seven year old community who've built up a love of their characters and hate to see them suddenly restricted by obtrusive lore.
Sadly, I feel that in MMO development, story is always the last thing considered and the first thing to get the chop when cuts come in. The move towards more co-op content is a cost saving measure even if it completely invalidates alignment for villains. IOs, the AE, even common SOs come with tiny, easily ignored lore that didn't affect my gameplay if I chose to ignore them. Alas, the Incarnate system was not designed to be so readily ignored. All I want is a way to progress my character without the game lore dictating how I did it.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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I agree completely. But let's be honest, this is the same dubious writing model that has afflicted comics for decades. A new writer comes on board and retcons or runs roughshod over the lore established by previous writers, even lore beloved by fans (can anyone say "Death of Phoenix"? I knew you could).|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
The CoH game lore is bigger than any one writer and should be treated with respect accordingly...rather than as a platform to introduce some completely random concepts that have little to do with the existing lore. This isn't fanfiction; the contributions of all writers should feed into the general narrative, rather than from it.
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I don't mean for this to sound like I am excusing what Paragon Studios has been permitting (demanding?) with the writing of new content since the departure of its earliest authors, rather, I am simply pointing out that it is entirely consistent with its source material. And despite my devotion to the idea of RPGs being faithful to their source material, this is one aspect of that source material I really wish CoX would stop emulating.
Tired of Praetoria
I was gone from the game from just prior to GR to just prior to Freedom, and upon my return after those 3+ years away I was very surprised to see how much Praetoria had risen to almost completely take over the role of Major Villain. It felt like Lord Recluse and Arachnos had lost its luster among the writers at Paragon Studios and so they were ultimately relegated to the status of Just Another Villain Group with minions/lieuts/bosses. I was a little taken aback by how Praetoria had been "fleshed out" in this morally ambiguous shades-of-gray manner that made it entirely unappealing to me (I like my heroes to wear white hats and my villains to wear black hats, so to speak, which is why I liked the old take on Praetorian Earth with its classic Silver Age Mirror, Mirror motif).
As far as I'm concerned, Praetoria is just a source of high-tech enemies with fancier graphics that has overstayed its welcome (with me) narratively, and I'm disappointed that it has become the focus of the Incarnate storyline so far. I'm disappointed that they also keep turning to the Hamidon as the Big Bad (honestly, I never found the "big pile of goo" to be a compelling master villain). I'm more interested in The Battalion, but I have a feeling I am going to lose interest in the game (again) before they are ever truly elaborated upon.
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
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That's also what happened during the second Rikti invasion - any time co-op content is added, Arachnos has to become "just another villain group" - and just like Arachnos got more development after the Rikti storyline, they're being set up for some pretty big changes now as the Praetorian storyline moves towards the climax.
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Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
I was very surprised to see how much Praetoria had risen to almost completely take over the role of Major Villain. It felt like Lord Recluse and Arachnos had lost its luster among the writers at Paragon Studios and so they were ultimately relegated to the status of Just Another Villain Group with minions/lieuts/bosses.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
For whatever reason, origins had to be cut from the final release of the game, or rather cut down to a simple aesthetic choice. I believe that's a direct result of going with an Archetype class system which made origins' previous effects inapplicable, hence why they were left in but robbed of any function. This bred in players a massive sense of disregard for the practicality of origins and instead taught us to view them as a tool for storytelling. My character's origin is "Technology," but what does that mean? Do I create technology, like a scientist? Am I made of technology, like a robot? Do I just sort of have superior technology, like an advanced alien? Did I find a piece of advanced technology, like the Guyver?
Time and again we'd have the argument about what origins meant. Does "Science" mean you're a scientist who uses science or a the result of experiment where science has been used on you? Does mutation mean you've mutated or that you were born different? Is a pureborn demon magic or natural? Arguments upon arguments were made, and every time someone made a suggestion to make Origins "mean something," no-one could ever agree on precisely what those origins should actually mean.
And now Origins mean nothing at all, which I suppose is the only possible solution at this point, but that doesn't make it a good one. Now, like in every other MMO, we are what the game tells us we are, and the freedom we enjoyed before level 50 is gone unless, like AzureSkyCiel, we close our eyes, plug our ears and yell "LALALALA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU! LALALALA!"
As far as I've seen, players' regard for origins has ranged from utter disregard to accepting them as a roleplaying tool. Whenever a system of advantages vs. disadvantages is proposed (say, you're a robot so psionics don't work on you, but you're weak against electrical damage) have taken the form of an entirely separate system not at all reliant on Origin to define it.
The fact of the matter is that Origins have never been well defined, and this has played to their advantage. They gave us a framework which made us think creatively, but didn't give us almost any limitations to restrict the result of this creative thinking. That's why I have the aforementioned automatons from the beginning of time - because I could. The game constantly challenges me to be more creative with the massive field of opportunity it presents, and as time goes on, my ideas become more and more outlandish... Literally. I consider this to be a massive benefit that City of Heroes has over most other games, and it's just such a shame it's being disregarded in favour of a very railroading, character-redefining storyline, instead.