The Well, Praetoria, and Incarnates; Problems with Writing?
Well thank you Dante. It's nice to see folks willing to answer the major question without getting sucked into the rage. I want to add my own opinions and possible counter-points to yours, since you seem to have a lot to say.
Without wanting to get drawn into the already raging debate, Ill try and answer the OPs question, at least from my own humble perspective. Although it is always funny to see who hasnt got certain people on ignore yet.
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1) Having the Well be the sole source of all powers.
A problem that a lot of people (and certainly a lot of roleplayers) have is that by enforcing this, the origins of our characters are suddenly no longer our own. This game had six years of allowing players to create virtually any type of character from aliens, to mutants to other dimensional entities and at no point was the Well even mentioned. As it stands, theres already exceptions to the Well Lore that were aware of in game. Now we hit 50 and we essentially get told, no, it wasnt you, it was all thanks to the Well. For me, thats a [pancake] of a sucker punch to hit someone with when they hit the peak of their career. Also, the Well is not exactly what you call a well known piece of lore. Its not mentioned in character creation, its hardly referenced in the 1-50 material. This isnt like Direct Competition Underdogs Online where your origin is determined for you in the tutorial. CoX has always allowed complete freedom of creation and yet for the Incarnate content, were suddenly all boxed into the same origin. |
Also, the more recent lore states that a "Well" exists for almost every species of being, it's a universal source of power. Admittedly, that piece of lore was only added recently, but it did answer the question of "How do things not native to Primal Earth or even this dimension become Incarnates, if originally being an Incarante depended upon where you came from?"
2. Making the Well sentient.
This was a huge mistake because it changes the nature of our characters relationship to the Well. Having us searching for artefacts of an ancient power isnt such a bad thing, it makes us treasure hunters, finding secrets of long dead gods to grow more powerful ourselves. But as soon as the source of that power becomes sentient and alive, it changes that. We essentially become acolytes of an elder god, beseeching it to grant us more power. The thrust of the Incarnate storyline is us trying to prove our value to the Well, showing it that Cole is not worthy of being its Champion. And before anyone chimes in with the its not sentient, its being guided, I have to ask by who? Who in the universe is powerful enough to dictate what this source of all power can do? That in itself makes this and the next point dangerous ground for anyone whos still sane. 3. And now our god is mad too. So if its not enough that our characters are now power hungry disciples of an unseen god, its established in Ramiels arc and beyond that the Well is a little bit bonkers. So now were actively trying to convince a mad god to give us more power so we can spank its champion back to his own dimension. How is this a sane and rational course of action for anyone other than the most mad of villains? |
I rather LIKE the fact the well is "sentient" and "mad". Although, I suppose one could argue to what extent the Well is actually aware of it's own actions, and exactly how "mad" it actually is. I mean, the Letter Writer states that Mender Lazarus is an mad scientist, though in my interactions with him during the Ouro arc he seems incredibly lucid to me.
As for the idea that the Well being alive means that the nature of how we obtain power changes...I'd argue that's not the case. It's difficult to beseech it for more power when the only method of communication we've gotten is through Statesman/Recluse/Hero 1. Prometheus wants us to prove to the Well that it doesn't need a single, sole Champion. But not by talking or prostating ourselves before it. But with action, the same action that got Emperor Cole his title as "Well's Champion". And even then, plenty of folks I know RP disregarding or scoffing at Prometheus' idea in the first place.
So you can attain power without making it seem like you're just trying to suck up to Well, if the RP aspect is that important (And it is to me, I pretty much play exclusively on Virtue)
4. None of it is our dimensions concern.
I like Praetoria. At least, I liked it in the 1 20 GR content, right up to the point where it god-mods you into deciding to fight against Praetoria when you leave. But the entirety of the Incarnate content so far has occurred in Goatee Universe. Which would be a problem if wed never fought a dimensional war before, but guess what? We have! And how did we deal with the Rikti? We sealed them off in their own little backwater and left them to it. And yet now, saving Praetoria seems to be a bigger task for our 50s than anything in our world. 5. Praetoria is not a credible threat. Its established that the world of Praetorian Earth is mostly ruled by the Hamidon. That aside from a few remaining outposts, all thats left of humanity is this tiny island state ruled by Goatee Statesman. And yet somehow, this tiny nation is a bigger threat to us than any other world. Why? Because the Well say so. |
6. Disparity with Level 50 content.
Think about some of the things that level 50s can do. Long before the Incarnate system, Ive seen a DM/Regen Scrapper clear the final room in Dark Watchers arc while the rest of our 8 man team lay dead. Ive seen Tanks devastate rooms on +4/x8 settings. Weve stopped Rikti invasions, a Nazi Statesman, aspects of a mad, dimension devouring god, a machine that can strip all of the power in the world and grant it to Recluse weve done some epic things. But for the Incarnate system, were facing old foes bumped up to the point where it takes 12 24 Incarnates to beat them. Why? Because the [pancaking] Well says so. We even have to deal with Maelstrom, a jumped up little punk weve all kicked to the curb many times who can now just say bang, youre dead to us. This is before we get to the civilians who can down us with rocks for [pancakes] sake! I could go on but those are the main points I feel. I dislike how needlessly complex the system is, how it ignores villains as if they never existed but these are separate to the story points. Ill just say that is as a roleplayer Ive seen bad GMs do some incredible asspulls in my time, making up things as they go along to justify their badly thought out campaign. After a while you get a sense for plots that are just being cobbled together as they go along, justifications being made up on the fly. And the Incarnate system rings that alarm and then some for me. I could forgive it maybe if this was 20 30 content maybe but this is meant to be our premier content, one of the major points for subscribing. Instead it just feels like it is: a big sticky mess of [pancakes]. |
I can actually accept that Malestrom is now suddenly more badass because he has a plot device literally strapped to his chest, the full extent of which we've not seen. And we're aware that Cole has essentially empowered all his Praetors (a reasoning we were given for why Marauder/Mother/etc go from being 50 AVs in Maria Jenkins to 54+Whatever in Incarnate Trials) which gives them a hometurf advantage.
I don't disagree that you might feel the justifications and plots feel like ***-pulls. I suppose I simply don't see the problems or plot-holes in the story the way others do. So I'm constantly tilting and scratching my head when people complain about how the Trials have "Stories and backgrounds that barely hold togther", when in-game they seem to be explained rather well.
But again, it could be because I'm so new, I've not seen the progression of the game since Issue 1.
Also, the more recent lore states that a "Well" exists for almost every species of being, it's a universal source of power. Admittedly, that piece of lore was only added recently, but it did answer the question of "How do things not native to Primal Earth or even this dimension become Incarnates, if originally being an Incarante depended upon where you came from?"
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Also, the Well is not exactly what you call a well known piece of lore.
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So if its not enough that our characters are now power hungry disciples of an unseen god, its established in Ramiels arc and beyond that the Well is a little bit bonkers. So now were actively trying to convince a mad god to give us more power so we can spank its champion back to his own dimension. How is this a sane and rational course of action for anyone other than the most mad of villains? |
PCs recently get 'hijacked' by the writers to agree with you that this whole thing is getting kind of hairy, even if they're one of those said 'most mad of villains', and to disapprove of Prometheus' plans to make humanity (and company's) Incarnates strong enough to turn the Well into their tool, seeing that as something that the Battalion does.
I like Praetoria. At least, I liked it in the 1 20 GR content, right up to the point where it god-mods you into deciding to fight against Praetoria when you leave. But the entirety of the Incarnate content so far has occurred in Goatee Universe. Which would be a problem if wed never fought a dimensional war before, but guess what? We have! And how did we deal with the Rikti? We sealed them off in their own little backwater and left them to it. And yet now, saving Praetoria seems to be a bigger task for our 50s than anything in our world. |
So why don't we try and close off access from Praetorian Earth to Primal Earth? Because Ouroboros has been warning folks about how ill-equipped we are to deal with the Coming Storm; since altering the time stream hasn't appeared to work so far to prevent the Battalion from coming to Earth, some other method is required to prevent its destruction. Since the Well is putting most of the power we might need into Tyrant, we have to get it somehow...and rather than let Tyrant dominate Primal Earth and share whatever amount of power he sees fit to distribute, it'd be better to have control of it ourselves...
Its established that the world of Praetorian Earth is mostly ruled by the Hamidon. That aside from a few remaining outposts, all thats left of humanity is this tiny island state ruled by Goatee Statesman. And yet somehow, this tiny nation is a bigger threat to us than any other world. Why? Because the Well say so. |
I think that's the same thing we struggled to deal with when fighting the Rikti, who you'll remember we didn't really beat in the first place. Also, the Rikti weren't Incarnated or anything, but people are trying really hard to blow that off as an acceptable reason.
I think the biggest blow to people's ability to believe that Praetoria is a credible threat is the aformentioned fact that its already being hemmed in by the Devouring Earth and, well, how big of a population can you really fit onto that island?
Think about some of the things that level 50s can do. Long before the Incarnate system, Ive seen a DM/Regen Scrapper clear the final room in Dark Watchers arc while the rest of our 8 man team lay dead. Ive seen Tanks devastate rooms on +4/x8 settings. Weve stopped Rikti invasions, a Nazi Statesman, aspects of a mad, dimension devouring god, a machine that can strip all of the power in the world and grant it to Recluse weve done some epic things. But for the Incarnate system, were facing old foes bumped up to the point where it takes 12 24 Incarnates to beat them. Why? Because the [pancaking] Well says so. |
We even have to deal with Maelstrom, a jumped up little punk weve all kicked to the curb many times who can now just say bang, youre dead to us. |
61866 - A Series of Unfortunate Kidnappings - More than a coincidence?
2260 - The Burning of Hearts - A green-eyed monster holds the match.
379248 - The Spider Without Fangs - NEW - Some lessons learned (more or less.)
Originally Posted by Issen
Also, the more recent lore states that a "Well" exists for almost every species of being, it's a universal source of power. Admittedly, that piece of lore was only added recently, but it did answer the question of "How do things not native to Primal Earth or even this dimension become Incarnates, if originally being an Incarante depended upon where you came from?"
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This even makes it more stupid. There are two ATs that are only part human. The character creation screen clearly states that a Natural origin character could be an alien with powers native to their race. We have the costume pieces to create a robotic character, including the Preatorian clockwork pieces, which, if you use them all, very clearly imply that you are a clockwork robot and not a cyborg or guy in power armor. In other words, some of us are NOT human, and character creation encourages being not human, but we still somehow get powers from the human well.
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61866 - A Series of Unfortunate Kidnappings - More than a coincidence?
2260 - The Burning of Hearts - A green-eyed monster holds the match.
379248 - The Spider Without Fangs - NEW - Some lessons learned (more or less.)
More importantly, the Well in itself isn't a problem. However, it could have been done so much better. Like, making it a mirror-empowerer like Scarlet made it in the fiction.
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The problem is that the Well is both sentient AND the source of all power. If it were just one or the other, then explaining around it would be fairly easy for those not religiously entrenched in their own way, but it's when you put both together that we have a problem. Let's examine:
If the Well IS sentient but IS NOT the source of all power, then we have an amoral entity that presents a balance between opportunity and danger. We need its power to enhance our own, but we must trick it into giving it to us without us giving up control in return. If the well is A source of power, then the door is open for players to argue that their own, personal powers can be and probably are greater, or at the very least enough to match the Well's own. In other words, the well is a mcguffin that we need to advance the plot, but not a character-defining concept that we need in order to explain our own characters. That works.
If the Well IS NOT sentient but IS the source of all power, then we're essentially facing a character power evolution. "The Well" is simply the physical manifestation of the abstract concept of "power," and is nothing more than the inspiration we used to develop or obtain our powers in the first place. If your power is science, the Well is discovery. If your power is training, then the Well represents the tenacity to train harder. If your power is magic, then the Well presents greater arcane understanding. The well is an abstract concept that means different things to different people, and ultimately represents nothing more than our character's will to progress.
Scarlet Shocker's idea and the subsequent story written about it are good examples of how the Well could have constituted great power without infringing on character concept. You can find it here. The Well's implementation tends to kill my enthusiasm to write, yet Scarlet's story inspired me to imagine. That's more than I can say for pretty much anything I've seen to do with Incarnates, lately, not counting Dark Astoria.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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You'll remember that we didn't actually 'beat' the Rikti; we just cut off the direct route from Rikti Earth to Primal Earth. We didn't 'beat' them the second time either; we managed to show that we weren't responsible for the initial hostilities and showed that Hro'Dtohz was about to commit war crimes before he could send in the main invasion force. |
So why don't we try and close off access from Praetorian Earth to Primal Earth? Because Ouroboros has been warning folks about how ill-equipped we are to deal with the Coming Storm; since altering the time stream hasn't appeared to work so far to prevent the Battalion from coming to Earth, some other method is required to prevent its destruction. Since the Well is putting most of the power we might need into Tyrant, we have to get it somehow...and rather than let Tyrant dominate Primal Earth and share whatever amount of power he sees fit to distribute, it'd be better to have control of it ourselves... |
Pretty sure the Well hasn't said jack to us about Praetoria itself, it's been everyone else. But I suppose this is picking nits. What makes it a credible threat, then? Eh, superior technology and psychics, I suppose.
Currently, it only "deigns to notice us" enough to grant higher-level Incarnate powers when we defeat Praetorians. We don't get high-end goodies for defeating Statesman, or Recluse, or Imperious. Only Praetorians.
If the Praetorians managed to get their hands on some cosmic cubes, would you still feel the same way? |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
The only real problem with the Well is the way it dictates a character's motives. There are too many character concepts that just won't kowtow to another entity, ever, which are perfectly valid in the supers genre, and there is no other way to get the Incarnate powers. If I want to skip the Hollows because I've decided that my hero is cool with the Trolls, I can do that and still get to level 20. If I want to skip the iTrials because I've decided my Villain can't stand to have any other creature legitimately claim to be his master, I'm locked out of Incarnate powers.
Obviously there are some concepts that can't work just because you can't emulate everything, so the concepts that turn up less often in the relevant genre get neglected. You can't be a guy who goes on globe-hopping adventures because even if we had occasional door missions where the door was a helicopter that takes you to an ancient Tibetan monastery, that would still never be more than about 10% of the content. But for the iTrials? Just make the method of power acquisition more open-ended. If the Well were more vague, that'd work. If the Well were one option among several, that could also work.
And after we showed them that we weren't responsible, the majority of them decided to call off the war. I'd consider that winning.
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We are not closing off access based on future Nemesis and Dr. Manhattan's condescending older brother's say-so. |
Currently, it only "deigns to notice us" enough to grant higher-level Incarnate powers when we defeat Praetorians. We don't get high-end goodies for defeating Statesman, or Recluse, or Imperious. Only Praetorians. |
Secondly, yet.
If the Praetorians had cosmic cubes, we would only have to take the cosmic cubes. I don't recall anyone sucking up to a cosmic cube and essentially saying "don't pay attention to him, pay attention to meeeeeee, I'm cooler!" |
61866 - A Series of Unfortunate Kidnappings - More than a coincidence?
2260 - The Burning of Hearts - A green-eyed monster holds the match.
379248 - The Spider Without Fangs - NEW - Some lessons learned (more or less.)
Incarnate stories kind of ruin the whole point of "Natural" toons. But eh. I'm okay with the plots for the most part. At least Dark Astoria is a break from the well/praetoria.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
yyyeahhhhh, I should have been a little more specific. I meant 'we didn't turn them into paste'.
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It could have been, but it isn't.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
Incarnate stories kind of ruin the whole point of "Natural" toons. But eh. I'm okay with the plots for the most part. At least Dark Astoria is a break from the well/praetoria.
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I mean, that's what I would do.
I don't think anyone's disputing that. 'cept, you know, the more smashy-smash villains or folks with big chips on their shoulder.
61866 - A Series of Unfortunate Kidnappings - More than a coincidence?
2260 - The Burning of Hearts - A green-eyed monster holds the match.
379248 - The Spider Without Fangs - NEW - Some lessons learned (more or less.)
The concepts of the Origins and the Well are kind of at odds with one another at the moment, at least from a player perspective, and I never felt that the Origins stuff was elaborated on or dealt with in a meaningful or even sufficient way as much as it could have been. At this point I think the best way to resolve the apparent conflict (without ditching anything) would be to say that the Origins are a part of that 'something greater' that Prometheus has mentioned recently. They don't really seem to be the creations of any given species, after all, and even 'aliens' seem to have the same ones that humanity has...
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I don't think anyone's disputing that. 'cept, you know, the more smashy-smash villains or folks with big chips on their shoulder. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
The Techbot speaks the truth. The Well is not a bad idea in general, but it's its execution which sinks it hard. I've said it before, but my own words have sunk off the forums, so I might as well reiterate:
The problem is that the Well is both sentient AND the source of all power. If it were just one or the other, then explaining around it would be fairly easy for those not religiously entrenched in their own way, but it's when you put both together that we have a problem. |
If the Well IS sentient but IS NOT the source of all power, then we have an amoral entity that presents a balance between opportunity and danger. We need its power to enhance our own, but we must trick it into giving it to us without us giving up control in return. If the well is A source of power, then the door is open for players to argue that their own, personal powers can be and probably are greater, or at the very least enough to match the Well's own. In other words, the well is a mcguffin that we need to advance the plot, but not a character-defining concept that we need in order to explain our own characters. That works. |
If the Well IS NOT sentient but IS the source of all power, then we're essentially facing a character power evolution. "The Well" is simply the physical manifestation of the abstract concept of "power," |
The Devs did not need to paint themselves into a corner, but they did. And in doing so, they officially painted all of our heroes into corners, and it poses all sorts of problems for many players. Officially, we all derive power from the Well. Everyone who has derived the Extra Special Power from the Well has come under its control, and can be controlled, puppet-like, whenever the Well so chooses. To paraphrase Eva Destruction, all the evidence we have to the contrary is a single assertion by some chick who won't tell us anything about herself, and whom, I might add, steals years from people's lives by touching them. "Sounds Legit" as the meme goes.
You can lay a great foundation for a story and still tell a bad story, but it is unlikely that a bad foundation will yield a great story.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
Here's how I deal with the Well of Furies lore:
"LA LA LA LA. I CAN'T HEAR YOU."
No, I'm not kidding. Since it's next to impossible to RP during Trials, I simply accept them as canon in broad strokes of story telling. If I want to, I'll say my blaster walked right in, wasted the place herself, made Marauder cry like a b@#$% and then proceeded to enjoy ale and wenches back in Primal Earth, and if I want to, I'll completely disregard the Well as being a source of power for any of my characters.
The Issue 22 lore only confirms it's possible to become incarnate-like without the Well. PPD, Tsoo, CoT (sort of), Arachnos, Banished Pantheon, Knives of Artemis (admittedly, they aren't the Knives of Artemis anymore), all of them gain Incarnate-like power without becoming incarnates.
So I just say the same thing's been happening with my characters.
My reincarnating Samurai is getting stronger through rigorous training and recalling his past lives (ala Desmond Miles with the Animus Bleeding Effect), my mages are simply learning greater magical theories, my tech-boys are innovating groundbreaking new tech.
And I will reach across the Internet somehow and punch you in the face if you try to tell me otherwise about my story.
Click here to find all the All Things Art Threads!
The Origin of Power is where the problem started, as people started saying "how can the CoT steal my powers? I have no powers!" It's where we started having a conflict between the players who said "I have powers because I am awesome!" and the lore that said "You have powers because magic," and later, with the Well being introduced as the source, "you have powers because a crazy puddle lets you."
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Then what's the problem? We won, storyline resolved in a satisfactory manner. |
So what makes things different this time? With the main force of the Battalion breathing down our necks, we're on a tight schedule. We can't wait for Cole to get desperate enough to push through the ranks of his own population, bringing the fight to our turf personally where he can be captured, but he's still holding on to all of the power we need behind all of Praetoria.
61866 - A Series of Unfortunate Kidnappings - More than a coincidence?
2260 - The Burning of Hearts - A green-eyed monster holds the match.
379248 - The Spider Without Fangs - NEW - Some lessons learned (more or less.)
See, this is where I suppose the opinions of many players and myself diverge: they believe Natural Origin characters have no powers and succeed by 'being awesome!', and I believe that there's a difference between one guy who can break a plasma-vomiting mech in half with his bare heel and one guy who can't. You can call it training, motivation, force of will or self-discipline, but it's still power. 'Awesome' is not a sufficient definition of the source of a Natural Origin character's skills or more importantly what is responsibe for them, and therefore people mistakenly believe that there's nothing to steal. Unfortunately, 'awesome' is approximate to the official given definition of Natural Origin characters, which makes things worse for everybody who works with or looks at the canon.
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http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html
"I do so love taking a nice, well thought out character and putting them through hell. It's like tossing a Faberge Egg onto the stage during a Gallagher concert." - me
@Palador / @Rabid Unicorn
The Issue 22 lore only confirms it's possible to become incarnate-like without the Well. PPD, Tsoo, CoT (sort of), Arachnos, Banished Pantheon, Knives of Artemis (admittedly, they aren't the Knives of Artemis anymore), all of them gain Incarnate-like power without becoming incarnates.
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You can call it training, motivation, force of will or self-discipline, but it's still power.
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What? There's no problem. I'm saying that we won the battles by fighting (and on our own ground, which helped), but not the war. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Yes, it is, but it's all yours. It all comes from you. Calling it anything else cheapens the concept.
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According to the lore? Possibly no. So even Natural Origin characters owe their existence to something derived from the Well.
Does it? Again, do people ignore the fact that Pandora's Box sparked the rise of the meta-human? If Pandora's box had not been opened, would anyone have had the spark, the drive to push themselves (speaking of Natural Origin only) into being more than "human"?
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Pandora's Box is, in itself, an excuse to not rewrite the entire history of the world to account for super powers. It added nothing to the game world, really.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Again, do people ignore the fact that Pandora's Box sparked the rise of the meta-human?
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For me, it's a much simpler problem - I have a wide selection of characters whose age counts somewhere in the billions of years. There's the heir to the power of creation and the usurper of the power of destruction, there's the insectoid race brood queen who essentially made her own race, there are the couple of automatons from the beginning of time... I have a few, and I'll be damned before a piece of "lore" that's not even in the game to begin with stops me.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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One of the lesser touched on inconsistencies of the Well and the game in general - but one that really grates on me - is this:
From levels 1-50, no matter your origin, you improve yourself. You get better - because your origin gives you the flexibility to create a story that fits your character whichever way you see fit. You're a robot-inventor like Techbot and you invent new gadgets and stuff to make yourself more powerful. Or you're a supereme martial artist that learns new skills as you go about your heroic villainy. Or the nanites in your blood stream enhance your abilities progressively over time... the origins as first presented work very very well.
Then you get to 50 and bang... the only way to progress is to let this insane puddle take your character over. This despite the fact that you regularly encounter enemies that are much tougher than you - Malta, Devoured Earth, Rikti, etc etc...
They don't need the Well to become more powerful - and yet, at level 50 you suddenly forget how to train, lose your invention ability, your spellbook runs out of pages... and so suddenly you are beholden to an external influence to improve your characters.
There's always the option of saying "don't play" but that misses the point - for 50 levels we've been part of a community, having fun with friends and most importantly - gaining power! So suddenly to have to make such a stark choice - well, let's just say it's a big disappoint. That disappoint is compounded by the insane sentience of the giver of power - which is why I felt compelled to retcon the story in my own head as above.
![](http://repeat-offenders.net/savecoh/SaveCOH_Blue_leaderboard.jpg)
Thelonious Monk
Nemesis. Martin Henri. Giovanna Scaldi. The entire freaking Mu and Oranbegan civilizations. Possibly Lady Grey.
Pandora's Box is, in itself, an excuse to not rewrite the entire history of the world to account for super powers. It added nothing to the game world, really. |
Yes, of course. And we take great pains to ignore it, too. Because it's crap, and it seeks to define, or re-define our characters, as it were. It also makes one wonder where the Oranbegans got the powers to have an advanced magical civilization 14 000 years ago, long before Pandora's Box was opened.
For me, it's a much simpler problem - I have a wide selection of characters whose age counts somewhere in the billions of years. There's the heir to the power of creation and the usurper of the power of destruction, there's the insectoid race brood queen who essentially made her own race, there are the couple of automatons from the beginning of time... I have a few, and I'll be damned before a piece of "lore" that's not even in the game to begin with stops me. |
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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The concepts of the Origins and the Well are kind of at odds with one another at the moment, at least from a player perspective, and I never felt that the Origins stuff was elaborated on or dealt with in a meaningful or even sufficient way as much as it could have been
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That was the entire point of Origins. A light touch, flexible enough to allow the character's creater (ie you the player) to create anything you wanted. Hell, Scarlet Shocker is an all electric blaster of natural origin and after almost six years I still don't have a credible explanation for that one, but it just simply works! If you ask her she'll probably shrug and simply say "I somehow manage to harness the ambient electricity in the atmosphere and direct it in a meaningful way - I don't much worry about the science behind it." And during her career, she's teamed with aliens, barbarians from alternate dimensions, sentient goo in an encounter suit, mighty wizards and escaped convicts - to name but a few. Origin has been a really useful tool that you could invest as much, or as little, in as you like. But now, the Incarnate line nails you down to a very specific set of rules that limit the players imagination and ability to interact within the game environment - it's gone from the examples above to "I've got this insane puddle in my head that lends me some of its powers and though I don't trust it, or like it, I've got to go with it just to continue progressing."
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Thelonious Monk
If you can't back up a claim. Don't make it.
I myself have had plenty of discussion with folks in-game about how much we enjoy Praetoria or want to see more content beyond 1-20 in GR and 20-29 in First Ward. There was even talk of things like Praetorian Hazard Zones and Praetorian specific trials to try and bring back some life to a zone with a great amount of potential.
Most of those folks? Avoid the forum board like the plague.