The Well, Praetoria, and Incarnates; Problems with Writing?

Which means you're asking her to go and actively look for people just to name drop to "prove her point". Fact of the matter is, those people you want to her find to back her claim up DO exist. But from what I've seen? They don't post on the forum board.

I myself have had plenty of discussion with folks in-game about how much we enjoy Praetoria or want to see more content beyond 1-20 in GR and 20-29 in First Ward. There was even talk of things like Praetorian Hazard Zones and Praetorian specific trials to try and bring back some life to a zone with a great amount of potential.

Most of those folks? Avoid the forum board like the plague.

I realize that a lot of folks have GG on ignore. Perhaps it's because I've only been on CoX for about 9 months, or maybe I'm just more tolerable of her behavior. I honestly have yet to take any issue with what she does, except for the constant smilies at the end of her posts, but I'm guessing she just does that as a quirk.

Forgive me if I'm getting this wrong, but according to the lore, isn't the source of the "spark" that lead to the advent and rise of the super-hero/meta-human Pandora's Box? That it actually lead to the kinds of things that would cause others to have that "potential"? And it's established that the Well can act through objects as well as straight from a watery tap. I always saw it myself as "The Well gave everyone that piece of potential that otherwise would not exist. That special something that allowed them to rise above others in similar situations to themselves", which is why you could concieveably have people of similiar origins (Natural being the best example, IMO) but only the PC's character rose to superhero standards.

Also, the more recent lore states that a "Well" exists for almost every species of being, it's a universal source of power. Admittedly, that piece of lore was only added recently, but it did answer the question of "How do things not native to Primal Earth or even this dimension become Incarnates, if originally being an Incarante depended upon where you came from?"

I figured I'd address these points both at the same time since they're somewhat related.

I rather LIKE the fact the well is "sentient" and "mad". Although, I suppose one could argue to what extent the Well is actually aware of it's own actions, and exactly how "mad" it actually is. I mean, the Letter Writer states that Mender Lazarus is an mad scientist, though in my interactions with him during the Ouro arc he seems incredibly lucid to me.

As for the idea that the Well being alive means that the nature of how we obtain power changes...I'd argue that's not the case. It's difficult to beseech it for more power when the only method of communication we've gotten is through Statesman/Recluse/Hero 1. Prometheus wants us to prove to the Well that it doesn't need a single, sole Champion. But not by talking or prostating ourselves before it. But with action, the same action that got Emperor Cole his title as "Well's Champion". And even then, plenty of folks I know RP disregarding or scoffing at Prometheus' idea in the first place.

So you can attain power without making it seem like you're just trying to suck up to Well, if the RP aspect is that important (And it is to me, I pretty much play exclusively on Virtue)

Again, addressing two related points at the same time. Praetoria being a problem is likely because of the similarities. Praetoria doesn't need us to open a Portal, they're capable of opening their own. Their technology is roughly comparable if not SUPERIOR in some cases (Warwalkers, the presence of actual cloning technology, etc, etc.). And they have an active interest in conquering us, and the means to do so in a terrifying manner; literally 'porting themselves into just about any location they want, as evidenced by TFs and the odd Server-wide event like the Seedling Invasion or the previous Praetorian Surge. Why a barrier like with the Rikti wasn't erected? I assume it's because unlike the Rikti, who have almost no means of dealing with magic, Praetoria could likely punch it's way though any such barrier that came up.

I feel that the Incarnate content is a primary example of where the Storyline and the Gameplay start to segregate from each other (the stone-throwing civvies being the Ur example right now). Also, while it's true that single characters can take on things that should be designed for whole groups (Soloing the ITF, Duoing Lambda, etc), that's not exactly a fault of the story that it's possible. That's the result of players tweaking their characters to the extreme and exploiting anything and everything in the system they can possibly manage. But doing so doesn't necessarily equate to story ability. Simply because a Controller/Dom can solo the LRSF doesn't mean anything in terms of the story. That's just an exploitation of mechanics. It's incredibly badass, I won't disagree, but I don't consider that meaningful or even relevant when RPing.

I can actually accept that Malestrom is now suddenly more badass because he has a plot device literally strapped to his chest, the full extent of which we've not seen. And we're aware that Cole has essentially empowered all his Praetors (a reasoning we were given for why Marauder/Mother/etc go from being 50 AVs in Maria Jenkins to 54+Whatever in Incarnate Trials) which gives them a hometurf advantage.

I don't disagree that you might feel the justifications and plots feel like ***-pulls. I suppose I simply don't see the problems or plot-holes in the story the way others do. So I'm constantly tilting and scratching my head when people complain about how the Trials have "Stories and backgrounds that barely hold togther", when in-game they seem to be explained rather well.

But again, it could be because I'm so new, I've not seen the progression of the game since Issue 1.

This even makes it more stupid. There are two ATs that are only part human. The character creation screen clearly states that a Natural origin character could be an alien with powers native to their race. We have the costume pieces to create a robotic character, including the Preatorian clockwork pieces, which, if you use them all, very clearly imply that you are a clockwork robot and not a cyborg or guy in power armor. In other words, some of us are NOT human, and character creation encourages being not human, but we still somehow get powers from the human well.

I've known that Cole and Richter's reopening of the Well after WWI was responsible for ushering in the new age of superheroism since reading the first novel and having the scenario discussed by players and developers years ago. I will grant that it's not something that newer players might know offhand.

I wouldn't say that all PCs are 'power hungry' at the moment so much as 'power desperate' in light of Galaxy City becoming Galaxy Crater and what else we're told is on the way. Is there another way to gain this kind of power and become an Incarnate? Perhaps. Prometheus does say that the Well snoozes most of the time, and we know that Incarnates appeared during that time, so something had to have happened that wasn't quite the same as what current Incarnates are going through. We also know from Prometheus that humanity's culture shift has caused the aforementioned 'bonkers' behavior, so we can intuit that the Well likely used to be more concerned with the quality of someone's character when granting power.

PCs recently get 'hijacked' by the writers to agree with you that this whole thing is getting kind of hairy, even if they're one of those said 'most mad of villains', and to disapprove of Prometheus' plans to make humanity (and company's) Incarnates strong enough to turn the Well into their tool, seeing that as something that the Battalion does.

You'll remember that we didn't actually 'beat' the Rikti; we just cut off the direct route from Rikti Earth to Primal Earth. We didn't 'beat' them the second time either; we managed to show that we weren't responsible for the initial hostilities and showed that Hro'Dtohz was about to commit war crimes before he could send in the main invasion force.

So why don't we try and close off access from Praetorian Earth to Primal Earth? Because Ouroboros has been warning folks about how ill-equipped we are to deal with the Coming Storm; since altering the time stream hasn't appeared to work so far to prevent the Battalion from coming to Earth, some other method is required to prevent its destruction. Since the Well is putting most of the power we might need into Tyrant, we have to get it somehow...and rather than let Tyrant dominate Primal Earth and share whatever amount of power he sees fit to distribute, it'd be better to have control of it ourselves...

Pretty sure the Well hasn't said jack to us about Praetoria itself, it's been everyone else. But I suppose this is picking nits. What makes it a credible threat, then? Eh, superior technology and psychics, I suppose.

I think that's the same thing we struggled to deal with when fighting the Rikti, who you'll remember we didn't really beat in the first place. Also, the Rikti weren't Incarnated or anything, but people are trying really hard to blow that off as an acceptable reason.

I think the biggest blow to people's ability to believe that Praetoria is a credible threat is the aformentioned fact that its already being hemmed in by the Devouring Earth and, well, how big of a population can you really fit onto that island?

If the Praetorians managed to get their hands on some cosmic cubes, would you still feel the same way?

I'll agree that he wasn't built up to be a credible threat beforehand. Same for Desdemona.

I think this idea was not emphasized quite consistently ingame. Yes, Prometheus does state that a Well appears for each species that becomes aware of its connection to 'something greater.' Yet, Prometheus also explains that a Well is a pooling of a species' ideas and creativity. Then, a Well's connection to a given species is not by biology, but by culture. It follows that if a being, any being, throws its lot in with that culture, it becomes connected to that species' Well.

The Techbot speaks the truth. The Well is not a bad idea in general, but it's its execution which sinks it hard. I've said it before, but my own words have sunk off the forums, so I might as well reiterate:

The problem is that the Well is both sentient AND the source of all power. If it were just one or the other, then explaining around it would be fairly easy for those not religiously entrenched in their own way, but it's when you put both together that we have a problem. Let's examine:

If the Well IS sentient but IS NOT the source of all power, then we have an amoral entity that presents a balance between opportunity and danger. We need its power to enhance our own, but we must trick it into giving it to us without us giving up control in return. If the well is A source of power, then the door is open for players to argue that their own, personal powers can be and probably are greater, or at the very least enough to match the Well's own. In other words, the well is a mcguffin that we need to advance the plot, but not a character-defining concept that we need in order to explain our own characters. That works.

If the Well IS NOT sentient but IS the source of all power, then we're essentially facing a character power evolution. "The Well" is simply the physical manifestation of the abstract concept of "power," and is nothing more than the inspiration we used to develop or obtain our powers in the first place. If your power is science, the Well is discovery. If your power is training, then the Well represents the tenacity to train harder. If your power is magic, then the Well presents greater arcane understanding. The well is an abstract concept that means different things to different people, and ultimately represents nothing more than our character's will to progress.

Scarlet Shocker's idea and the subsequent story written about it are good examples of how the Well could have constituted great power without infringing on character concept. You can find it here. The Well's implementation tends to kill my enthusiasm to write, yet Scarlet's story inspired me to imagine. That's more than I can say for pretty much anything I've seen to do with Incarnates, lately, not counting Dark Astoria.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

And after we showed them that we weren't responsible, the majority of them decided to call off the war. I'd consider that winning.

We are not closing off access based on future Nemesis and Dr. Manhattan's condescending older brother's say-so.

Pretty sure the Well hasn't said jack to us about Praetoria itself, it's been everyone else. But I suppose this is picking nits. What makes it a credible threat, then? Eh, superior technology and psychics, I suppose.

Currently, it only "deigns to notice us" enough to grant higher-level Incarnate powers when we defeat Praetorians. We don't get high-end goodies for defeating Statesman, or Recluse, or Imperious. Only Praetorians.
If the Praetorians had cosmic cubes, we would only have to take the cosmic cubes. I don't recall anyone sucking up to a cosmic cube and essentially saying "don't pay attention to him, pay attention to meeeeeee, I'm cooler!"

yyyeahhhhh, I should have been a little more specific. I meant 'we didn't turn them into paste'.

When the world is being imminently threatened by things that can turn a city into rubble before anyone notices or kill you before you were even born, and you're lacking pertinent information on on either, the folks who appear to be relative experts on the subject and are offering to save your neck might have a little more clout in regards to what needs to be done. Things might change as time goes on and we get more information.

For one, those three are currently on our side against the Battalion...I mean, as much as they can be. Recluse, maybe for as long as there's a threat. Statesman...well, not for much longer. Imperious is kind of out of touch.

Secondly, yet.

This looks more like a problem with how we have to deal with the sentient cosmic cubes rather than the fact that the Praetorians actually got them despite us wailing on them in years past, which is the point I was addressing.

Considering that the Rikti were peaceful and friendly before they became victims of a Nemesis plot, I'd consider the outcome we got to be preferable to genocide, at least from the heroes' point of view.

It could have been, but it isn't.

It isn't? I didn't pay much attention to the story arcs while filming. That's a shame. Then again I saw the Talons of Vengeance which means furies I guess :/.

The concepts of the Origins and the Well are kind of at odds with one another at the moment, at least from a player perspective, and I never felt that the Origins stuff was elaborated on or dealt with in a meaningful or even sufficient way as much as it could have been. At this point I think the best way to resolve the apparent conflict (without ditching anything) would be to say that the Origins are a part of that 'something greater' that Prometheus has mentioned recently. They don't really seem to be the creations of any given species, after all, and even 'aliens' seem to have the same ones that humanity has...

I mean, that's what I would do.

I don't think anyone's disputing that. 'cept, you know, the more smashy-smash villains or folks with big chips on their shoulder.

The Origin of Power is where the problem started, as people started saying "how can the CoT steal my powers? I have no powers!" It's where we started having a conflict between the players who said "I have powers because I am awesome!" and the lore that said "You have powers because magic," and later, with the Well being introduced as the source, "you have powers because a crazy puddle lets you."

Then what's the problem? We won, storyline resolved in a satisfactory manner.

That pretty much nails it, Sam. And that is before you ever layer on the notion that it is likely also Insane and/or Amoral/Evil.


Reminds me of when Odin and Thor came into contact with Zeus and Hercules. There was some *mumble mumble* about who was the leader of gods and all that and then it wasn't really an issue... "gods" became, in essence, just another sort of aliens.

Sort of like "The Force," prior to midichlorians and Jar-Jar Binks. But the way you described the concept actually works better than "The Force."

The Devs did not need to paint themselves into a corner, but they did. And in doing so, they officially painted all of our heroes into corners, and it poses all sorts of problems for many players. Officially, we all derive power from the Well. Everyone who has derived the Extra Special Power from the Well has come under its control, and can be controlled, puppet-like, whenever the Well so chooses. To paraphrase Eva Destruction, all the evidence we have to the contrary is a single assertion by some chick who won't tell us anything about herself, and whom, I might add, steals years from people's lives by touching them. "Sounds Legit" as the meme goes.

You can lay a great foundation for a story and still tell a bad story, but it is unlikely that a bad foundation will yield a great story.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.

See, this is where I suppose the opinions of many players and myself diverge: they believe Natural Origin characters have no powers and succeed by 'being awesome!', and I believe that there's a difference between one guy who can break a plasma-vomiting mech in half with his bare heel and one guy who can't. You can call it training, motivation, force of will or self-discipline, but it's still power. 'Awesome' is not a sufficient definition of the source of a Natural Origin character's skills or more importantly what is responsibe for them, and therefore people mistakenly believe that there's nothing to steal. Unfortunately, 'awesome' is approximate to the official given definition of Natural Origin characters, which makes things worse for everybody who works with or looks at the canon.

What? There's no problem. I'm saying that we won the battles by fighting (and on our own ground, which helped), but not the war. I don't think Primal Earth was sufficiently equipped either time to take the fight to the Rikti Homeworld, and with sacrifice, wit and a little luck, we found alternative paths to victory. If we were in a different situation, we might be trying a similar approach with the threat from Praetoria.

So what makes things different this time? With the main force of the Battalion breathing down our necks, we're on a tight schedule. We can't wait for Cole to get desperate enough to push through the ranks of his own population, bringing the fight to our turf personally where he can be captured, but he's still holding on to all of the power we need behind all of Praetoria.

Somehow, all that reminded me of this:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html

Read it again. The PPD's power is handwaved. The Tsoo use the Well. The CoT haven't shown up in the heroside arcs except to have Oranbegan backstory messed up some more, Arachnos's boost is temporary, and the KoA get theirs from the Furies. So that leaves the Banished Pantheon, who get theirs from an evil death god.

Yes, it is, but it's all yours. It all comes from you. Calling it anything else cheapens the concept.

The goal of Rikti War I and II was to stop the Rikti from invading us. We stopped the Rikti from invading us. Ergo, we won the war. Saying we didn't because we never went to their homeworld and they had us outnumbered is like saying the Americans didn't win their revolutionary war because they didn't actually go to England and punch the king in the face. If you get what you're fighting for, you've won, and a diplomatic victory is still a victory.

Does it? Again, do people ignore the fact that Pandora's Box sparked the rise of the meta-human? If Pandora's box had not been opened, would anyone have had the spark, the drive to push themselves (speaking of Natural Origin only) into being more than "human"?

According to the lore? Possibly no. So even Natural Origin characters owe their existence to something derived from the Well.

Nemesis. Martin Henri. Giovanna Scaldi. The entire freaking Mu and Oranbegan civilizations. Possibly Lady Grey.

Pandora's Box is, in itself, an excuse to not rewrite the entire history of the world to account for super powers. It added nothing to the game world, really.

Yes, of course. And we take great pains to ignore it, too. Because it's crap, and it seeks to define, or re-define our characters, as it were. It also makes one wonder where the Oranbegans got the powers to have an advanced magical civilization 14 000 years ago, long before Pandora's Box was opened.

For me, it's a much simpler problem - I have a wide selection of characters whose age counts somewhere in the billions of years. There's the heir to the power of creation and the usurper of the power of destruction, there's the insectoid race brood queen who essentially made her own race, there are the couple of automatons from the beginning of time... I have a few, and I'll be damned before a piece of "lore" that's not even in the game to begin with stops me.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

"You got to dig it to dig it, you dig?"
Thelonious Monk

This. Canon itself has examples that totally wreck the 'Pandora's Box' point, which means players have perfectly legitimate ground for disregarding what is essentially a Mc-Guffin that was never actually needed in the first place.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

That was the entire point of Origins. A light touch, flexible enough to allow the character's creater (ie you the player) to create anything you wanted. Hell, Scarlet Shocker is an all electric blaster of natural origin and after almost six years I still don't have a credible explanation for that one, but it just simply works! If you ask her she'll probably shrug and simply say "I somehow manage to harness the ambient electricity in the atmosphere and direct it in a meaningful way - I don't much worry about the science behind it." And during her career, she's teamed with aliens, barbarians from alternate dimensions, sentient goo in an encounter suit, mighty wizards and escaped convicts - to name but a few. Origin has been a really useful tool that you could invest as much, or as little, in as you like. But now, the Incarnate line nails you down to a very specific set of rules that limit the players imagination and ability to interact within the game environment - it's gone from the examples above to "I've got this insane puddle in my head that lends me some of its powers and though I don't trust it, or like it, I've got to go with it just to continue progressing."

"You got to dig it to dig it, you dig?"
Thelonious Monk