The Well, Praetoria, and Incarnates; Problems with Writing?
I think you've stated my problem with Preatorians. We've had too much of them already. Just like marvel has overused Wolverine. It's come to the point that I no longer care about the story when I play the trials.
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But like all good things, they're better in moderation.
If the devs stopped the Preatoria stuff now, leaving whatever ends aren't finished to be finished later, that'll just be another complaint for the forums...
"The devs never finish what they start! It's Power Customization/Proliferation all over again!"
"More plot left to drift in a diluted mess of sea these writers call a story..."
or when the devs come back to revist Preatoria to finish said unfinished plots...
"WHAT!? More of this crap!!"
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Well I'll have to thank you, then. It's people like you that play these trials over and over, making sure they work, reporting bugs and what not, so that in a few months down the road, when all the Preatoria stuff is done, I get to run it just once, enjoy it and put it down. It's only over exposure if you expose yourself to it alot.
But like all good things, they're better in moderation. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
If the devs stopped the Preatoria stuff now, leaving whatever ends aren't finished to be finished later, that'll just be another complaint for the forums...
"The devs never finish what they start! It's Power Customization/Proliferation all over again!" "More plot left to drift in a diluted mess of sea these writers call a story..." or when the devs come back to revist Preatoria to finish said unfinished plots... "WHAT!? More of this crap!!" |
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Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
I have no idea what you're responding to. Where did I say I was burnt out or overexposed to the actual trials themselves?
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AFAICS, yeah there's plot development in the trails, but they're not huge gobs of it piled on your plate, just pieces. It can seem like a lot because they've stretched the release of these trials over so many issues, but if you take it in perspective of what the devs are actually serving you...it's not *that* much.
What I'm saying is, if you had never run any of the Preatorian content, then did Going Rogue, First Ward, then leveled up and did the incarnate trials 1 each, would it really be all that huge of a plot sink? Bigger than most, yes, but is it that bad?
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Good question. This is my own take on it - others will have their own contribution to make but I wanna be clear I'm not speaking for anyone else here.
The big issue with the Incarnate system stems from the fact that the power we get is somehow given to us from the Well. We didn't make a better power suit, learn to punch harder or become physically stronger or anything like that - we just happened to get the attention of some hole in the ground and it deems us worthy. That, right there, emasculates our characters. It's not about us any more, it's about the Well and the hubris of the Dev writers who are telling their own story instead of allowing us to be the centre of our stories. There are other huge issues about the Incarnate story, but that's the root cause for me. We're no longer autonomous within the context of the game, we're puppets. |
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Hm, well, I don't see the problem with the Well myself. However, I joined CoX in May of 2011, so around issue 20 or so. But even what I've read on the Wiki, the Well doesn't seem like a problem. I mean, the lore talks about the fact that the Well works through artifacts. And didn't Pandora's Box basically CAUSE the rise of super-heroes and the sparks of inspiration that lead to the technological advances that lead to the advent of particular origins (science/tech)?
And honestly, I love Praetoria. I read the old version where it was just a Mirror Universe and honestly, that was boring as hell. Mirror Universe-style plots are way too cheap and easy and allow for absolutely no depth or development. It's a lazy sort of design. But then I guess when it comes to the forums I'm among the minority whose glad for any development, since the development of Paragon/Isles is so 'meh' right now. Praetoria is something fresh and interesting.
And I'm one of them.
I feel like playing the game tonight instead of arguing about it, so I'm only going to answer two points right now.
They're not really problems - they're just stories that not everyone likes - kinda like all stories |
Venture fancies himself a writer. |
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But they're not nearly as complex or as easy to relate to as the Praetorians
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#2 - The only good Praetorian is a dead Praetorian, with the sole exceptions of Provost Marchand, Noble Savage, and Penny. (Note that both Metronome AND DeVore are already dead, so not an issue IMO)
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Although I don't agree with your stance, I cannot un-agree with the above. Perfectly stated.
However, there comes a problem. Some don't like when you ad hominem content, twisting it so it fits what you need to tell a particular story to progress plot a certain way. For instance, people that like First Ward may have liked it better that the original writer finish it vs another writer 3yrs down the line bending it to tell some story about Mako or Scirocco. Sure, the new writer is progressing the main plot with other story ends, but for what? That said, I wouldn't mind having old plots revisited but, for pure example, I probably wouldn't enjoy there being a link between Dark Astoria and the Shadow Shard (I really do not like the SS, not the zone, the plot is meh, and I don't care for it much at all...I like the concept of a dimension eater, but that is all) just to springboard new stuff about Rularuu. It all comes down to 'you won't please everyone all the time'... |
Yes you won't please everyone all the time, but that excuse is always used to justify bad writing. Which is what this game is seriously suffering from.
And that's a bald-faced lie. Just because folks on the forums say they don't like it doesn't mean they represent the entirety, or even the majority of the playerbase. I know plenty of folks who not only really like Praetoria, but would find it awesome if there was Praetorian content ranging from 1-50.
And I'm one of them. |
Who are these people?
Prove it. Show me them.
People on the forum disliking it is absolutely irrelevant here. Golden Girl is making a claim. I'm asking her for the evidence to back that up.
I feel almost rude interjecting here (Hello I'm Captain-Electric!), but there are going to be lots of people on both sides naturally, and a lot of the people who like all the content in the game will be too busy playing the game. Believe me (or not, but I have no reason to lie), my roommate, and many of my in-game friends have never not looked forward to new Praetorian content! My roomy never wants to leave that place! But we are also excited that new storylines and themes are busting into the picture to shake things up. I socialize a lot within the game and have made several good friends and know dozens of people on a more superficial level, but I can't (and wouldn't, even if I could) speak for all of them. Out of all of those people, I am the ONLY one I know of who actually visits these forums, so you won't see them speaking for themselves either. That also tells me something about how representative the forums are....
Golden Girl makes bold claims (she is passionate about her favorite game) and I get that you're in disagreement about some of those claims. But asking her...what, exactly? To go and do research or poll people and drop names/speak for people (which is NEVER advisable, and I trust that both you and her know that) seems unrealistic! If someone asked me to bring them a pile of evidence on an Internet forum, I wouldn't believe they were being serious! Goodness, who has that kind of time?!?! This is a very small slice of my life. This isn't an episode of Perry Mason! You remember that show? Because it just popped in my head for some reason. Used to stay up late to watch it when I was a kid. Oh man, I have no idea why. Must have been a good show I guess...hmmm. I can't remember it too well. ANYWAY....
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Why not have Baron Zoria - leader of the Circle of Thorns and arch-enemy of the Dream Doctor - as the new villain trying to become the harbinger of death? Rather than Tammy Arcanus with a goatee?
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People on the forum disliking it is absolutely irrelevant here. Golden Girl is making a claim. I'm asking her for the evidence to back that up. |
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I feel almost rude interjecting here (Hello I'm Captain-Electric!), but there are going to be lots of people on both sides naturally, and a lot of the people who like all the content in the game will be too busy playing the game.
![]() Golden Girl makes bold claims (she is passionate about her favorite game) and I get that you're in disagreement about some of those claims. But asking her...what, exactly? To go and do research or poll people and drop names/speak for people (which is NEVER advisable, and I trust that both you and her know that) seems unrealistic! If someone asked me to bring them a pile of evidence on an Internet forum, I wouldn't believe they were being serious! Goodness, who has that kind of time?!?! This is a very small slice of my life. This isn't an episode of Perry Mason! You remember that show? Because it just popped in my head for some reason. Used to stay up late to watch it when I was a kid. Oh man, I have no idea why. Must have been a good show I guess...hmmm. I can't remember it too well. ANYWAY.... |
If you can't back up a claim. Don't make it.
A lot of people are looking forward to the Praetorian content. Back away from the particulars of this argument and this thread, and think about all the people you come across in-game who tend to be pretty excited about all the content that comes out. I can only speak from my limited experience, but to me it always looks like the forum is full of critics but the game is full of fans. Most of my pals have been around about as long as I have, give or take (a couple of years). But I check bios and badges a lot and the retention in this game always amazes me. Something is working. You've been around since the beginning and if most of your in-game friends have been too (and are feeling grumpy about it), then maybe you don't see what I see every time I log in. I'm not sure how I can fully separate "this is the game I see" from "I'm making a claim about the game." If I've done a poor job, I apologize, but I'm not even sure why we (meaning people in general) have to argue about such small things.
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@Captain-Electric � Detective Marvel � The Sapien Spider � Moravec Man � The Old Norseman
Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH
Without wanting to get drawn into the already raging debate, Ill try and answer the OPs question, at least from my own humble perspective. Although it is always funny to see who hasnt got certain people on ignore yet.
1) Having the Well be the sole source of all powers.
A problem that a lot of people (and certainly a lot of roleplayers) have is that by enforcing this, the origins of our characters are suddenly no longer our own. This game had six years of allowing players to create virtually any type of character from aliens, to mutants to other dimensional entities and at no point was the Well even mentioned. As it stands, theres already exceptions to the Well Lore that were aware of in game. Now we hit 50 and we essentially get told, no, it wasnt you, it was all thanks to the Well. For me, thats a [pancake] of a sucker punch to hit someone with when they hit the peak of their career.
Also, the Well is not exactly what you call a well known piece of lore. Its not mentioned in character creation, its hardly referenced in the 1-50 material. This isnt like Direct Competition Underdogs Online where your origin is determined for you in the tutorial. CoX has always allowed complete freedom of creation and yet for the Incarnate content, were suddenly all boxed into the same origin.
2. Making the Well sentient.
This was a huge mistake because it changes the nature of our characters relationship to the Well. Having us searching for artefacts of an ancient power isnt such a bad thing, it makes us treasure hunters, finding secrets of long dead gods to grow more powerful ourselves. But as soon as the source of that power becomes sentient and alive, it changes that. We essentially become acolytes of an elder god, beseeching it to grant us more power. The thrust of the Incarnate storyline is us trying to prove our value to the Well, showing it that Cole is not worthy of being its Champion.
And before anyone chimes in with the its not sentient, its being guided, I have to ask by who? Who in the universe is powerful enough to dictate what this source of all power can do? That in itself makes this and the next point dangerous ground for anyone whos still sane.
3. And now our god is mad too.
So if its not enough that our characters are now power hungry disciples of an unseen god, its established in Ramiels arc and beyond that the Well is a little bit bonkers. So now were actively trying to convince a mad god to give us more power so we can spank its champion back to his own dimension. How is this a sane and rational course of action for anyone other than the most mad of villains?
4. None of it is our dimensions concern.
I like Praetoria. At least, I liked it in the 1 20 GR content, right up to the point where it god-mods you into deciding to fight against Praetoria when you leave. But the entirety of the Incarnate content so far has occurred in Goatee Universe. Which would be a problem if wed never fought a dimensional war before, but guess what? We have! And how did we deal with the Rikti? We sealed them off in their own little backwater and left them to it. And yet now, saving Praetoria seems to be a bigger task for our 50s than anything in our world.
5. Praetoria is not a credible threat.
Its established that the world of Praetorian Earth is mostly ruled by the Hamidon. That aside from a few remaining outposts, all thats left of humanity is this tiny island state ruled by Goatee Statesman. And yet somehow, this tiny nation is a bigger threat to us than any other world. Why? Because the Well say so.
6. Disparity with Level 50 content.
Think about some of the things that level 50s can do. Long before the Incarnate system, Ive seen a DM/Regen Scrapper clear the final room in Dark Watchers arc while the rest of our 8 man team lay dead. Ive seen Tanks devastate rooms on +4/x8 settings. Weve stopped Rikti invasions, a Nazi Statesman, aspects of a mad, dimension devouring god, a machine that can strip all of the power in the world and grant it to Recluse
weve done some epic things. But for the Incarnate system, were facing old foes bumped up to the point where it takes 12 24 Incarnates to beat them. Why? Because the [pancaking] Well says so.
We even have to deal with Maelstrom, a jumped up little punk weve all kicked to the curb many times who can now just say bang, youre dead to us. This is before we get to the civilians who can down us with rocks for [pancakes] sake!
I could go on but those are the main points I feel. I dislike how needlessly complex the system is, how it ignores villains as if they never existed but these are separate to the story points. Ill just say that is as a roleplayer Ive seen bad GMs do some incredible asspulls in my time, making up things as they go along to justify their badly thought out campaign. After a while you get a sense for plots that are just being cobbled together as they go along, justifications being made up on the fly. And the Incarnate system rings that alarm and then some for me. I could forgive it maybe if this was 20 30 content maybe but this is meant to be our premier content, one of the major points for subscribing.
Instead it just feels like it is: a big sticky mess of [pancakes].
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Although it is always funny to see who hasn’t got certain people on ignore yet. ![]() |
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As usual, Dante sums my own thoughts up better than I can.
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Edit: actually I'll Just go ahead and chime in with Dante. I like the Praetorian content, I hate the well.
Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
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More importantly, the Well in itself isn't a problem. However, it could have been done so much better. Like, making it a mirror-empowerer like Scarlet made it in the fiction.
Not some semi-sentient, elder mad-god that we have to bow and scrape to to get power. That just...ugh. Terribad.
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Well, I can't speak for anyone but myself on any of this.
As far as my opinions go:
Praetoria:
I absolutely love the story of Praetoria through 1-20, and to some degree, 20-29 or however it longs to take to finish First Ward. There's just something so fascinating about the zone. I love how clean the city appears, even though everything is so corrupt, from the Seers to the PPD and the power hungry Powers Division. I love that you can play a heroic Loyalist if you want, or a villainous Resistance, and vice versa.
I just love the whole overwhelming sense of foreboding, masked in a shiny exterior. I know a lot of people don't like it because it doesn't feel like a traditional comic book story, but I don't really mind it one bit. In fact, I prefer it - to me, Praetoria has some of the best story telling I've seen in an MMO. I love playing through it on the various sides, even to this day. There's just something different about making a toon in Praetoria. Yeah, I miss out on badge missions that are early on, and I don't get benefits from the sewer trial, but I honestly don't care. Yeah, there's not many other people running around, so there's not much teaming to be done until you get to Primal Earth - I still don't care. I love it that much.
What I don't love is how the story just kind of stops once you leave it. From that point on, the game pretty much ignores the fact that you're a Praetorian. Yeah, there's a handful of missions that deal with the Praetorian plot line, like a line of dialogue or two, but that's it. The Sutter TF is always going to be the same, regardless of where you started. All of the depth that Praetoria had goes straight out the window, and you become just another hero or villain in the eyes of everyone.
I think the worst offender here is the Praetorian storyline that you get from Maria Jenkins in Peregrine Island. While I appreciate the fact that they updated the arc, the fact that it treats you the same if you're a Primal or Praetorian just seems like a wasted opportunity. I would have loved if there had been two sets of missions, one for Primals, and one for Praetorians. It just seems like a wasted opportunity. It's like no one remembers you in Praetoria once you leave it.
I even tried to explain it away using in game lore once on one of my mains, by saying that 'Mother' wiped her existence from everyone's minds when they left Praetoria, but that doesn't really work for everything since some people are guarded from her influence. Not much I can do about that. It's even worse when you return to Praetoria and most contacts don't remember you either.
And don't even get me started on the trials. The game mechanics are fun, but the story telling in them is just horrible. They COMPLETELY lack the depth of the content, Praetorian or otherwise. Trials are just a bad place to have any kind of story content in, really. There's too much going on, too much focus on the mechanics and combat, to appreciate anything else. Dialogue is easy to miss, the story is pretty inconsequential, and when major things do happen, it feels weird or poorly written. The conclusion of the Underground Trial in particular just felt really off and rushed.
I just hope more single player Praetorian content is added. If it was possible to level 1-50 in Preatoria without ever having to leave - and being able to access red-side or blue-side like a Rogue or Vigilante - I'd be extremely happy. I'd chuck that shiny new MMO in the trash and never look back.
The Well:
The only problem I have with the Well storyline is that it seems to have a mind of it's own. I think I preferred how it was portrayed in the novel, where it was just this source of power, neither good nor evil. The fact that it's selecting champions just seems really weird and unnecessary. The well shouldn't ever act of it's own accord for ANYTHING if you ask me - maybe some should just be more attuned to it's power because they have a better grasp of power or have a better grasp of how to access it through some special method - not because the Well selected them.
Explaining away a mystical entity and making it self aware takes away some of what made it special and mysterious in the first place.
Incarnates:
Playing as an Incarnate is fun, but lore-wise, things are a little weird. The NPC Incarnates are basically god-like, whereas we're just generally more powerful. There's a huge disconnect between game mechanics and story. I think they exaggerated the Incarnate potential too much, and made the NPCs a little too powerful in comparison to our own abilities. There's nothing really wrong with it as it is now, aside from how it's presented in the lore.
Sorry for rambling!
![](http://i.imgur.com/xuOnV.jpg)
I like Praetoria.
Not enough to play the new trials, mind, but I've been having fun as a lowbie.
Totally agree on how interchangeable the female villains seem.
Also not sure why every new thing is Praetoria. Am not looking forward to having the same thing happen with the Battalion. I like variety and single titles for my characters, not massive crossover events.
I forgot where I was going with this comment.
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