The Well, Praetoria, and Incarnates; Problems with Writing?

I like Praetoria.

Not enough to play the new trials, mind, but I've been having fun as a lowbie.

Totally agree on how interchangeable the female villains seem.

Also not sure why every new thing is Praetoria. Am not looking forward to having the same thing happen with the Battalion. I like variety and single titles for my characters, not massive crossover events.

I forgot where I was going with this comment.

Hm, well, I don't see the problem with the Well myself. However, I joined CoX in May of 2011, so around issue 20 or so. But even what I've read on the Wiki, the Well doesn't seem like a problem. I mean, the lore talks about the fact that the Well works through artifacts. And didn't Pandora's Box basically CAUSE the rise of super-heroes and the sparks of inspiration that lead to the technological advances that lead to the advent of particular origins (science/tech)?

And honestly, I love Praetoria. I read the old version where it was just a Mirror Universe and honestly, that was boring as hell. Mirror Universe-style plots are way too cheap and easy and allow for absolutely no depth or development. It's a lazy sort of design. But then I guess when it comes to the forums I'm among the minority whose glad for any development, since the development of Paragon/Isles is so 'meh' right now. Praetoria is something fresh and interesting.

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Originally Posted by Xanatos No there isn't.

And that's a bald-faced lie. Just because folks on the forums say they don't like it doesn't mean they represent the entirety, or even the majority of the playerbase. I know plenty of folks who not only really like Praetoria, but would find it awesome if there was Praetorian content ranging from 1-50.

And I'm one of them.

I feel like playing the game tonight instead of arguing about it, so I'm only going to answer two points right now.

I feel almost rude interjecting here (Hello I'm Captain-Electric!), but there are going to be lots of people on both sides naturally, and a lot of the people who like all the content in the game will be too busy playing the game. Believe me (or not, but I have no reason to lie), my roommate, and many of my in-game friends have never not looked forward to new Praetorian content! My roomy never wants to leave that place! But we are also excited that new storylines and themes are busting into the picture to shake things up. I socialize a lot within the game and have made several good friends and know dozens of people on a more superficial level, but I can't (and wouldn't, even if I could) speak for all of them. Out of all of those people, I am the ONLY one I know of who actually visits these forums, so you won't see them speaking for themselves either. That also tells me something about how representative the forums are....

Golden Girl makes bold claims (she is passionate about her favorite game) and I get that you're in disagreement about some of those claims. But asking her...what, exactly? To go and do research or poll people and drop names/speak for people (which is NEVER advisable, and I trust that both you and her know that) seems unrealistic! If someone asked me to bring them a pile of evidence on an Internet forum, I wouldn't believe they were being serious! Goodness, who has that kind of time?!?! This is a very small slice of my life. This isn't an episode of Perry Mason! You remember that show? Because it just popped in my head for some reason. Used to stay up late to watch it when I was a kid. Oh man, I have no idea why. Must have been a good show I guess...hmmm. I can't remember it too well. ANYWAY....

Without wanting to get drawn into the already raging debate, I’ll try and answer the OP’s question, at least from my own humble perspective. Although it is always funny to see who hasn’t got certain people on ignore yet.

1) Having the Well be the sole source of all powers.

A problem that a lot of people (and certainly a lot of roleplayers) have is that by enforcing this, the origins of our characters are suddenly no longer our own. This game had six years of allowing players to create virtually any type of character from aliens, to mutants to other dimensional entities and at no point was the Well even mentioned. As it stands, there’s already exceptions to the Well Lore that we’re aware of in game. Now we hit 50 and we essentially get told, ‘no, it wasn’t you, it was all thanks to the Well’. For me, that’s a [pancake] of a sucker punch to hit someone with when they hit the peak of their career.

Also, the Well is not exactly what you call a well known piece of lore. It’s not mentioned in character creation, it’s hardly referenced in the 1-50 material. This isn’t like Direct Competition Underdogs Online where your origin is determined for you in the tutorial. CoX has always allowed complete freedom of creation and yet for the Incarnate content, we’re suddenly all boxed into the same origin.

2. Making the Well sentient.

This was a huge mistake because it changes the nature of our characters’ relationship to the Well. Having us searching for artefacts of an ancient power isn’t such a bad thing, it makes us treasure hunters, finding secrets of long dead gods to grow more powerful ourselves. But as soon as the source of that power becomes sentient and alive, it changes that. We essentially become acolytes of an elder god, beseeching it to grant us more power. The thrust of the Incarnate storyline is us trying to prove our value to the Well, showing it that Cole is not worthy of being its Champion.

And before anyone chimes in with the ‘it’s not sentient, it’s being guided’, I have to ask ‘by who?’ Who in the universe is powerful enough to dictate what this source of all power can do? That in itself makes this and the next point dangerous ground for anyone who’s still sane.

3. And now our god is mad too.

So if it’s not enough that our characters are now power hungry disciples of an unseen god, it’s established in Ramiel’s arc and beyond that the Well is a little bit bonkers. So now we’re actively trying to convince a mad god to give us more power so we can spank its champion back to his own dimension. How is this a sane and rational course of action for anyone other than the most mad of villains?

4. None of it is our dimension’s concern.

I like Praetoria. At least, I liked it in the 1 – 20 GR content, right up to the point where it god-mods you into deciding to fight against Praetoria when you leave. But the entirety of the Incarnate content so far has occurred in Goatee Universe. Which would be a problem if we’d never fought a dimensional war before, but guess what? We have! And how did we deal with the Rikti? We sealed them off in their own little backwater and left them to it. And yet now, saving Praetoria seems to be a bigger task for our 50s than anything in our world.

5. Praetoria is not a credible threat.

It’s established that the world of Praetorian Earth is mostly ruled by the Hamidon. That aside from a few remaining outposts, all that’s left of humanity is this tiny island state ruled by Goatee Statesman. And yet somehow, this tiny nation is a bigger threat to us than any other world. Why? Because the Well say so.

6. Disparity with Level 50 content.

Think about some of the things that level 50s can do. Long before the Incarnate system, I’ve seen a DM/Regen Scrapper clear the final room in Dark Watcher’s arc while the rest of our 8 man team lay dead. I’ve seen Tanks devastate rooms on +4/x8 settings. We’ve stopped Rikti invasions, a Nazi Statesman, aspects of a mad, dimension devouring god, a machine that can strip all of the power in the world and grant it to Recluse… we’ve done some epic things. But for the Incarnate system, we’re facing old foes bumped up to the point where it takes 12 – 24 Incarnates to beat them. Why? Because the [pancaking] Well says so.

We even have to deal with Maelstrom, a jumped up little punk we’ve all kicked to the curb many times who can now just say ‘bang, you’re dead’ to us. This is before we get to the civilians who can down us with rocks for [pancake’s] sake!

I could go on but those are the main points I feel. I dislike how needlessly complex the system is, how it ignores villains as if they never existed but these are separate to the story points. I’ll just say that is as a roleplayer I’ve seen bad GMs do some incredible asspulls in my time, making up things as they go along to justify their badly thought out campaign. After a while you get a sense for plots that are just being cobbled together as they go along, justifications being made up on the fly. And the Incarnate system rings that alarm and then some for me. I could forgive it maybe if this was 20 – 30 content maybe but this is meant to be our premier content, one of the major points for subscribing.

Instead it just feels like it is: a big sticky mess of [pancakes].

As usual, Dante sums my own thoughts up better than I can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Edit: actually I'll Just go ahead and chime in with Dante. I like the Praetorian content, I hate the well.

More importantly, the Well in itself isn't a problem. However, it could have been done so much better. Like, making it a mirror-empowerer like Scarlet made it in the fiction.

Not some semi-sentient, elder mad-god that we have to bow and scrape to to get power. That just...ugh. Terribad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Well, I can't speak for anyone but myself on any of this.

As far as my opinions go:

Praetoria:
I absolutely love the story of Praetoria through 1-20, and to some degree, 20-29 or however it longs to take to finish First Ward. There's just something so fascinating about the zone. I love how clean the city appears, even though everything is so corrupt, from the Seers to the PPD and the power hungry Powers Division. I love that you can play a heroic Loyalist if you want, or a villainous Resistance, and vice versa.

I just love the whole overwhelming sense of foreboding, masked in a shiny exterior. I know a lot of people don't like it because it doesn't feel like a traditional comic book story, but I don't really mind it one bit. In fact, I prefer it - to me, Praetoria has some of the best story telling I've seen in an MMO. I love playing through it on the various sides, even to this day. There's just something different about making a toon in Praetoria. Yeah, I miss out on badge missions that are early on, and I don't get benefits from the sewer trial, but I honestly don't care. Yeah, there's not many other people running around, so there's not much teaming to be done until you get to Primal Earth - I still don't care. I love it that much.

What I don't love is how the story just kind of stops once you leave it. From that point on, the game pretty much ignores the fact that you're a Praetorian. Yeah, there's a handful of missions that deal with the Praetorian plot line, like a line of dialogue or two, but that's it. The Sutter TF is always going to be the same, regardless of where you started. All of the depth that Praetoria had goes straight out the window, and you become just another hero or villain in the eyes of everyone.

I think the worst offender here is the Praetorian storyline that you get from Maria Jenkins in Peregrine Island. While I appreciate the fact that they updated the arc, the fact that it treats you the same if you're a Primal or Praetorian just seems like a wasted opportunity. I would have loved if there had been two sets of missions, one for Primals, and one for Praetorians. It just seems like a wasted opportunity. It's like no one remembers you in Praetoria once you leave it.

I even tried to explain it away using in game lore once on one of my mains, by saying that 'Mother' wiped her existence from everyone's minds when they left Praetoria, but that doesn't really work for everything since some people are guarded from her influence. Not much I can do about that. It's even worse when you return to Praetoria and most contacts don't remember you either.

And don't even get me started on the trials. The game mechanics are fun, but the story telling in them is just horrible. They COMPLETELY lack the depth of the content, Praetorian or otherwise. Trials are just a bad place to have any kind of story content in, really. There's too much going on, too much focus on the mechanics and combat, to appreciate anything else. Dialogue is easy to miss, the story is pretty inconsequential, and when major things do happen, it feels weird or poorly written. The conclusion of the Underground Trial in particular just felt really off and rushed.

I just hope more single player Praetorian content is added. If it was possible to level 1-50 in Preatoria without ever having to leave - and being able to access red-side or blue-side like a Rogue or Vigilante - I'd be extremely happy. I'd chuck that shiny new MMO in the trash and never look back.

The Well:
The only problem I have with the Well storyline is that it seems to have a mind of it's own. I think I preferred how it was portrayed in the novel, where it was just this source of power, neither good nor evil. The fact that it's selecting champions just seems really weird and unnecessary. The well shouldn't ever act of it's own accord for ANYTHING if you ask me - maybe some should just be more attuned to it's power because they have a better grasp of power or have a better grasp of how to access it through some special method - not because the Well selected them.

Explaining away a mystical entity and making it self aware takes away some of what made it special and mysterious in the first place.

Incarnates:
Playing as an Incarnate is fun, but lore-wise, things are a little weird. The NPC Incarnates are basically god-like, whereas we're just generally more powerful. There's a huge disconnect between game mechanics and story. I think they exaggerated the Incarnate potential too much, and made the NPCs a little too powerful in comparison to our own abilities. There's nothing really wrong with it as it is now, aside from how it's presented in the lore.

Sorry for rambling!