The Well, Praetoria, and Incarnates; Problems with Writing?
By
AkuTenshiiZero,
Posted on: 2012-01-14 01:40 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Prior to the DA Revamp I would have agreed with SlickRiptide and Samuel_Tow. While the The Well of the Furies is a horrendously crap story idea and should just be retconned out of existance and the praetorians are overexposed and shoe-horned into far too much content; the majority of the new DA content is absolutely amazing. Mainly because it draws from a lot of old plot points and weaves in a whole bunch of different characters into the overall narrative of the zone. It really draws from the lore in an absolutely fantastic way. It's epic without being overbearing. Good job!
I, much like Jack Emmert, am a massive fan of Kurt Busiek's Astro City. It's the best comic ever made bar none. And it's obvious to see the inspiration City of Heroes takes from it. One of Astro City's big plotlines was something called "The Dark Age". In it, the city's primary hero gets killed, the world is getting darker and darker, and an evil being from another dimension breaks into our reality and starts causing chaos. I absolutely loved reading this in Astro city. So now that something VERY similar is happening in Paragon...gotta say I'm loving that too.
But yeah the Well of the Furies is so convoluted/ridiculous at the moment I pretty much just ignore it entirely.
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Truth be told, I don't know all that much about Dark Astoria or its storyline. I spent I think a day testing it, got depressed at the horrible drop rates (lots of stuff wasn't dropping that they intended to fix) and simply lost my enthusiasm. The whole raid grind idea has burned me out so bad that I'll just see what comes out on Live and go from there. Hopefully it'll involve meaningful progress. That's why I don't get Beta invites and turn down the ones I do get - I suck at Beta testing.|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
Prior to the DA Revamp I would have agreed with SlickRiptide and Samuel_Tow. While the The Well of the Furies is a horrendously crap story idea and should just be retconned out of existance and the praetorians are overexposed and shoe-horned into far too much content; the majority of the new DA content is absolutely amazing. Mainly because it draws from a lot of old plot points and weaves in a whole bunch of different characters into the overall narrative of the zone. It really draws from the lore in an absolutely fantastic way. It's epic without being overbearing. Good job!
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All of this is to say that... If Dark Astoria really is the step in the right direction everyone says it is, then I'll be the first to sing its praises. What I saw after a day of going into it was promising, to say the least.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I simply disagree. I think either you're wrong, or you're reading something into what I said that I didn't mean. And yes, I've read Sam's good explanation of why he thinks that's changed over time.|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Certainly the game has been reduced to that, but it wasn't always the case.
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This has always been a video game about comic book super heroes (and later super villains). We can disagree about the quality of the way the game's story has presented those things to us, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what genre it represents, and that's what I meant and nothing more (or less). Comic books, even if we restrict ourselves to things like Marvel and DC, have been of sweeping quality either across time or even at the same time across different titles.
There are concepts and memes, some positive and some negative, found in comic books. Basically what Sam said and I infer you to agree with is that CoH at release contained lots of concepts and memes you liked with or preferred. As time has progressed it has introduced more that you dislike.
CoH at release was a creative vacuum. We know a lot of lore existed in some form, but it was not present in the game. They mostly laid out a world with a backstory and plopped our characters in it. As time has gone on, people have filled that vacuum with more detailed info. Sometimes they've filled it with lore from the original plan, sometimes they've changed it, for better or worse. (Clearly the Well is considered by some here to be a change for the worse.) It makes complete sense to me to debate the quality of the writing behind some of those additions (well, to a point), but it's impossible to start filling a conceptual vacuum with more concrete info without stepping on some toes when people have written arbitrary back stories for their characters. Yes, I realize more care could have been taken, and that's part of the reason for this thread.
I'll agree with one thing about the Well storyline. It's more "shepherding" of our characters than it needs to be in terms of back story direction. Unlike some of the vocal posters in this thread, I do not find it very restrictive, but I'll concede that it does require an association some may not want, similar to how CoV's setting requires all villains to associate with Arachnos. I do think the setting would have been better with a more abstract concept behind Incarnate-level power, but I just don't find what we got as objectionable as some.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I think the Developers could patch up 80% of this problem by adding one more paragraph of dialogue to Prometheus where he confesses that while most individuals who possess Incarnate-grade abilities are gaining them from the Well and are thus the generalized origin of all Incarnates (stereotypes, yo!), there are other sources of power that can grant powers on the same scale that, while they do feed back into the well because they are being utilized by Humans, they don't DRAW from it. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
This just in: I agree completely, and you bring up an interesting point.
For a while now we've been saying that we want the Well of the Furies to be A source of power, not THE source of power. From what I'm reading in regards to future storyline progression, it seems like the writers are lawyering up. OK, so the Well of the Furies is just A source of power. Which would be good, except all the other sources of power are Wells, too, just different ones. Yes, in the purely technical, "letter of the law" sense that is different... But it really amounts to the same thing. The point of wanting the Well to be A source of power is so that I could add in my own, personally-devised source of power. To open up the potential for more sources of power only to rigidly define them, too, sounds to me like missing the point by a mile. Moreover, I agree that all this effort to explain EVERYTHING in the game through the same one plot device is getting old, and getting old fast. It's ruining otherwise interesting plots, and it's ruining potential future ideas because we know they'll be tied to the well in some way, too. But the truth of the matter is the Well is a one-trick pony. It works as the source of power behind one storyline, maybe a couple. But as the source of power behind the whole game, it's nothing more than shooting yourself in the foot. The simple fact is that the Well of the Furies is more trouble than it's worth. It takes time, effort, possibly money and a LOT of customer dissatisfaction to ret-con EVERYTHING as deriving from the well, and all of this for what? The Well and its family and friends as the source of everything and anything is a crappy story. It takes this vast, multi-fasceted, wide world and reduces it to a single gimmick. The Well as a concept is not bad, if it were contained to its own storyline and restricted to INTERACTING with other stories, rather than DEFINING them. The Well as the basis for everything just ruins the story. As far as I'm concerned, an old SomethingAwful quote works very well in regards to the effort being put into ret-conning everything to stem from the well, and the benefit this leads to: It's like someone said "I'll give you this sack full of rats, but only if you let me kick you in the groin 10 times." It's not worth it! |
It could be further explained that the Well also significantly increases in strength when these new power sources are introduced. And as Wells themselves are some of the most ample and easily integrated hypernatural power sources in the universe due to their symbiotic nature, this explains how Battalion came upon the idea of consuming OTHER Wells to boost its own power.
Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
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I like to consider some of the worst examples of comic book writing (One More Day, Countdown to Final Crisis, Superman at Earth's End, etc.) to be lessons in what not to do, rather than sources of inspiration. It quite literally terrifies me that someone could look at, say, Bimbos in Time and think "This sucks! City of Heroes should totally be like this!" I'm not saying I believe you disagree with this, but just because City of Heroes is a comic-book-inspired game, that doesn't mean it should be inspired by crap comics and hack writers. Pick from the good, ignore the bad.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
This has always been a video game about comic book super heroes (and later super villains). We can disagree about the quality of the way the game's story has presented those things to us, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what genre it represents, and that's what I meant and nothing more (or less). Comic books, even if we restrict ourselves to things like Marvel and DC, have been of sweeping quality either across time or even at the same time across different titles.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
There are concepts and memes, some positive and some negative, found in comic books. Basically what Sam said and I infer you to agree with is that CoH at release contained lots of concepts and memes you liked with or preferred. As time has progressed it has introduced more that you dislike.
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It's not that there are memes I dislike making their way into the game. It's that memes are replacing concepts and storytelling.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
CoH at release was a creative vacuum. We know a lot of lore existed in some form, but it was not present in the game. They mostly laid out a world with a backstory and plopped our characters in it. As time has gone on, people have filled that vacuum with more detailed info. Sometimes they've filled it with lore from the original plan, sometimes they've changed it, for better or worse. (Clearly the Well is considered by some here to be a change for the worse.) It makes complete sense to me to debate the quality of the writing behind some of those additions (well, to a point), but it's impossible to start filling a conceptual vacuum with more concrete info without stepping on some toes when people have written arbitrary back stories for their characters. Yes, I realize more care could have been taken, and that's part of the reason for this thread.
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It occurs to me that the Well of the Furies is not the first time the writing team have tried to tie all concepts to the same root. City of Villains tried to ally all villains in the game to Arachnos and all heroes to Longbow, to the point where "hero" and "Longbow" as well as "villain" and "Arachnos" are used interchangeably. PvP zones are supposed to be heroes vs. villains, but they're really Longbow vs. Arachnos, with player characters being assigned allegiance based on alignment. Feh!
As far as I'm concerned, a "creative vacuum" is the most conducive to player creativity. I'd much rather see a large, persistent world created through fiction where my character is let loose to pursue plot threads here and there, than to have a linear storyline that explains everything with the same small handful of concepts. If filling in the world makes it too specific, then don't fill it in. Broaden it. But instead of broadening, the City of Heroes world has been getting smaller and smaller and smaller, with each of the many divergent plot threads being tied together at both ends.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I'll agree with one thing about the Well storyline. It's more "shepherding" of our characters than it needs to be in terms of back story direction. Unlike some of the vocal posters in this thread, I do not find it very restrictive, but I'll concede that it does require an association some may not want, similar to how CoV's setting requires all villains to associate with Arachnos. I do think the setting would have been better with a more abstract concept behind Incarnate-level power, but I just don't find what we got as objectionable as some.
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Dark Astoria already seems to suggest our voices are being heard. That's good. So long as debate exists, there can be no losers.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I tried to break your paragraph up, but then I realised it's all one sentence. I am impressed! 
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This is actually more powerful approach than you realise. If you watch the AWESOME Issue 11: A Stitch in Time trailer, you will catch Mender Silos saying the following:|
Originally Posted by Sylph_Knight
I think the Developers could patch up 80% of this problem by adding one more paragraph of dialogue to Prometheus where he confesses that while most individuals who possess Incarnate-grade abilities are gaining them from the Well and are thus the generalized origin of all Incarnates (stereotypes, yo!), there are other sources of power that can grant powers on the same scale that, while they do feed back into the well because they are being utilized by Humans, they don't DRAW from it.
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| We travel in time, through the Pillar of Ice and Flame, an artefact from the end of the universe itself. Of the 11 methods of time travel, the Pillar grants us the greatest level of temporal accuracy, while also being the most accessible. |
Not only is the I11 trailer probably hands down the best one I've ever seen for the game (no offence, Samuraiko, but that voice actor sells the thing big!
), but it does a great job dumping a lot of exposition in a little time without contradicting itself, without contradicting established canon and without shutting any doors for potential future concepts.When I argue against the Well of the Furies, I argue because I know the writers can do better. They HAVE done better. Maybe it's not the same people, granted, but it proves it CAN be done better, because it has been done better. Yes, since its introduction, Ouroboros has been the hub for all the game's storylines, but the difference between it and the Well is that Ouroboros only tells its own story. It does not attempt to re-write the stories of those who take part in it. We go to Ourobors by choice, and the story then twists to involve us in it, but it never reaches back to rewrite who we are, and THAT is the key difference.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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When I started to hit the higher-end content in the 40-50 range for the first time in Grandville, I had the distinct feeling that I had become somebody important in the Rogue Isles. When I finished my first patron arc, Scirocco spoke to me, somewhat begrudgingly, as an equal. My journey was coming to an end, my efforts were being recognized, and I had the power to match my status.
Now that I've started getting into Incarnate content, I feel...pedestrian. Like I'm just one f a bajillion other heroes/villains scrambling like rats in a maze. I'm no longer a respected member in the upper ranks of a massive organization, because Arachnos doesn't amount to a pile of dirt anymore. Frankly, I haven't felt so insignificant since level 1.
The problem here is twofold: One, being forced to have a massive team for trials makes the individual feel smaller. You literally aren't making enough personal impact. Going fist-to-fist with Back Alley Brawler made me feel powerful, being one of 10 Corruptors chipping away at Siege makes me feel weak. Secondly, the narrative is no longer personal. This is where the SSA's shine infinitely brighter than trials, people call me by name and know who I am! In trials, nobody knows who I am, nobody knows of my deeds, and nobody will remember what I've done.
Finally, there is the factor of how poorly the Devs have scaled trials. This is going back the the infamous Rocks Of Death. When I started the Incarnate content, I was expecting the opportunity to face cosmic-level threats the likes of Galactus or Onslaught. And what did we get stuck with? Being pelted to death by rocks thrown by housewives while raiding a TV station. Way to seriously drop the ball, guys. I know we already have Rulaaru, and it's probably pretty tough to top that in terms of threat-level, but these are threats I surpassed in the freakin' Zig Breakout tutorial. Again, we need bigger threats to match our new level of power, if those were legions of planet-devouring Lovecraftian horrors throwing rocks at me, I would be satisfied. Housewives. F***ing housewives.
The off-beat space pirate...Capt. Stormrider (50+3 Elec/Storm Science Corruptor)
The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)
Virtue Forever.
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None taken - I've LONG said that the Issue 11 trailer is one of my favorites of the official trailers. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Not only is the I11 trailer probably hands down the best one I've ever seen for the game (no offence, Samuraiko, but that voice actor sells the thing big!
), but it does a great job dumping a lot of exposition in a little time without contradicting itself, without contradicting established canon and without shutting any doors for potential future concepts. |
And the voice really makes it - that "yes I sound like a know-it-all because I AM a know-it-all, and you'd best not forget that" tone just does it. Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Dark_Respite's Farewell Video: "One Last Day"
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
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MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
The Well and Incarnates are despised because they put the players second. This is a continuation of the problems with City of Villains, Origin of Power storyline (OOPS) and so on to the ridiculous new tutorial in Galaxy City, where we have to follow a specific storyline rather than be active partners in creating our own.
It retcons the established story into a straitjacket and any player character whose background is different from that is forced into being a human whose power derives from the Well of Furies.
Sam's right about the Issue 11 trailer: that's exactly the way to write for this particular game. Silos saying, "This is one of 11 ways to time travel" gets you involved in that specific story but allows you an "out" to come up with your own method of time travel. THE ENTIRE GAME SHOULD BE WRITTEN THAT WAY. If they want to say that the Well is "but one way to cosmic-level power," then that's fine. Now you can have a fallen angel or demon from Hell or robot using dark energy attain those power levels. The problem is when it becomes the ONLY way to progress. That's just lame and, quite frankly, bad MMO writing.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
I'll try to be brief... Well, I'll try
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You have to remember that Granville and all of the 40-50 content came not just an Issue after CoV was made, but a whole BETA after the fact. The entire time, myself and others hammered away at the "lackey" feeling of the low-level villain game, and I see Grandville as the answer. For the first time, there is where you feel like a big fish. That's also what Westin Phipps is for - to trump people who thought the game wasn't "evil" enough.|
Originally Posted by AkuTenshiiZero
When I started to hit the higher-end content in the 40-50 range for the first time in Grandville, I had the distinct feeling that I had become somebody important in the Rogue Isles. When I finished my first patron arc, Scirocco spoke to me, somewhat begrudgingly, as an equal. My journey was coming to an end, my efforts were being recognized, and I had the power to match my status.
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Originally Posted by AkuTenshiiZero
Now that I've started getting into Incarnate content, I feel...pedestrian. Like I'm just one f a bajillion other heroes/villains scrambling like rats in a maze. I'm no longer a respected member in the upper ranks of a massive organization, because Arachnos doesn't amount to a pile of dirt anymore. Frankly, I haven't felt so insignificant since level 1.
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Originally Posted by AkuTenshiiZero
When I started the Incarnate content, I was expecting the opportunity to face cosmic-level threats the likes of Galactus or Onslaught. And what did we get stuck with? Being pelted to death by rocks thrown by housewives while raiding a TV station. Way to seriously drop the ball, guys.
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Originally Posted by Dark_Respite
None taken - I've LONG said that the Issue 11 trailer is one of my favorites of the official trailers.
And the voice really makes it - that "yes I sound like a know-it-all because I AM a know-it-all, and you'd best not forget that" tone just does it. |
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Originally Posted by Ironik
The Well and Incarnates are despised because they put the players second. This is a continuation of the problems with City of Villains, Origin of Power storyline (OOPS) and so on to the ridiculous new tutorial in Galaxy City, where we have to follow a specific storyline rather than be active partners in creating our own.
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It's a basic fact of the human condition that "our own stuff" always feels like the best, even when it's garbage. It may not be as good, but it's ours, and that makes it more valuable.
This is my story. There are many like it, but this one's mine.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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So what kind of story freedom did the old tutorials gives you? |
Originally Posted by Ironik
the ridiculous new tutorial in Galaxy City, where we have to follow a specific storyline rather than be active partners in creating our own.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Though you could really say that some of the weird stretches in the Well lore (particularly its attitude towards Cole) are due to the fact that they chose the Praetorian War as the initial Incarnate storyline and at the same time used it for the Trial mechanics, thus requiring enemies that can stand up to 16-24 demigodlings. They could have told the exact same story with a mix of task forces and level 45-50 mission contacts and probably presented it much better, and they wouldn't have had to come up with explanations for why Cole is able to PL his friends a bunch of level shifts.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
This was my emotional journey, as well. Let's roll with "you have drunk from the well and have the power of the gods." Now what? Go fight civilians. And you need 20 other people to do it. Presentation, presentation, presentation. That's what we're missing, and badly.
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Also then we could have had more missions in the "Devoured Underground" map set. Seriously I can't get enough of how awesome that place looks.
@Mindshadow
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All of it. It was story-neutral. "Hello. Here's the city. These are the game mechanics." The new story system assumes not just that you are new to Paragon City, but that you are NEW TO YOUR POWERS. Sorry, but my centuries-old mutant isn't. Nor is my alien who just landed on Earth. I can, and have, made characters who fit the paradigm dictated by the new lore, but I have many more who are not constrained by it.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
So what kind of story freedom did the old tutorials gives you?
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More to the point, the game should not constrain our creativity in this manner. If CoH wants to distinguish itself from every other MMO out there, they should embrace this "creative playground" model.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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I see the new tutorial a lot more free in my opinion O_o. In the end, the old ones were the same thing just a bit anticlimatic with a "Meh" story that never gets brought up again. In the new one, you're sort of that "Guy who was there and seen it all" as far as the CoH universe treats you. Matthew Hasbey's arc is a direct after-effect of the attack, and I believe it's mentioned a few times villain side. I guess that's why Arachnos sees potential in your villain rather than just Destined One B.S.|
Originally Posted by Ironik
All of it. It was story-neutral. "Hello. Here's the city. These are the game mechanics." The new story system assumes not just that you are new to Paragon City, but that you are NEW TO YOUR POWERS. Sorry, but my centuries-old mutant isn't. Nor is my alien who just landed on Earth. I can, and have, made characters who fit the paradigm dictated by the new lore, but I have many more who are not constrained by it.
More to the point, the game should not constrain our creativity in this manner. If CoH wants to distinguish itself from every other MMO out there, they should embrace this "creative playground" model. |
Though I don't know. I like the Freedom tutorial better for heroes, but breaking out of jail was always fun. I can't nitpick the game to death though.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
I hate the new tutorial because it's actually faster to get to level 2 by street sweeping now (unless I'm playing the tutorial with about 5 other people).
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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Just to point out, it was faster to street sweep when the old tutorial was around as well...
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Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague
I hate the new tutorial because it's actually faster to get to level 2 by street sweeping now (unless I'm playing the tutorial with about 5 other people).
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Not redside it wasn't - the Tutorial took me less than 5 minutes.
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Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
Just to point out, it was faster to street sweep when the old tutorial was around as well...
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Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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See, I had an almost opposite experience with the Incarnate content. And I'm not saying this just to be contrary. I want to add a perspective to this argument that I think is getting overlooked here.|
Originally Posted by AkuTenshiiZero
When I started to hit the higher-end content in the 40-50 range for the first time in Grandville, I had the distinct feeling that I had become somebody important in the Rogue Isles. When I finished my first patron arc, Scirocco spoke to me, somewhat begrudgingly, as an equal. My journey was coming to an end, my efforts were being recognized, and I had the power to match my status.
Now that I've started getting into Incarnate content, I feel...pedestrian. Like I'm just one f a bajillion other heroes/villains scrambling like rats in a maze. I'm no longer a respected member in the upper ranks of a massive organization, because Arachnos doesn't amount to a pile of dirt anymore. Frankly, I haven't felt so insignificant since level 1. The problem here is twofold: One, being forced to have a massive team for trials makes the individual feel smaller. You literally aren't making enough personal impact. Going fist-to-fist with Back Alley Brawler made me feel powerful, being one of 10 Corruptors chipping away at Siege makes me feel weak. Secondly, the narrative is no longer personal. This is where the SSA's shine infinitely brighter than trials, people call me by name and know who I am! In trials, nobody knows who I am, nobody knows of my deeds, and nobody will remember what I've done. Finally, there is the factor of how poorly the Devs have scaled trials. This is going back the the infamous Rocks Of Death. When I started the Incarnate content, I was expecting the opportunity to face cosmic-level threats the likes of Galactus or Onslaught. And what did we get stuck with? Being pelted to death by rocks thrown by housewives while raiding a TV station. Way to seriously drop the ball, guys. I know we already have Rulaaru, and it's probably pretty tough to top that in terms of threat-level, but these are threats I surpassed in the freakin' Zig Breakout tutorial. Again, we need bigger threats to match our new level of power, if those were legions of planet-devouring Lovecraftian horrors throwing rocks at me, I would be satisfied. Housewives. F***ing housewives. |
When I started doing trials, I felt VERY important. Being an Incarnate means you're part of an elite group of heroes with powers VASTLY overshadowing that of others of the same type (example, an Incarnate KM/WP Scrapper is vastly more powerful than a level 50 non-Incarnate KM/WP Scrapper). Yes, there are a lot of people that are a part of this "Elite", but the effort and energy those individuals put in to get to that point is in no way diminished or lessened simply because there's a lot of them.
I'm part of a group of ridiculously powerful heroes confronting threats that ordinary heroes stand little chance of taking on by themselves (Apex and Tin Mage TFs make this -very- clear). So I still felt powerful being a part of these Leagues because we (the League) are taking on threats far above and beyond what most normal heroes are use to dealing with. So even though I'm just one person, I'm still one very special person.
At least, that's how I see it.
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Hear, hear. Well put.
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Originally Posted by Ironik
The Well and Incarnates are despised because they put the players second...
It retcons the established story into a straitjacket and any player character whose background is different from that is forced into being a human whose power derives from the Well of Furies. Sam's right about the Issue 11 trailer: that's exactly the way to write for this particular game. Silos saying, "This is one of 11 ways to time travel" gets you involved in that specific story but allows you an "out" to come up with your own method of time travel. THE ENTIRE GAME SHOULD BE WRITTEN THAT WAY. |
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
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While I don't disagree with what you're saying specifically, this interpretation speaks to me of a desire to belong, and it's a desire I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that I do not share. I don't want to go into why and just by how much I don't share it, but to say that I don't want to belong to an "elite" which destroys my individuality and recognises me only as a part of something bigger, especially when I never asked to be part of it.|
Originally Posted by Issen
When I started doing trials, I felt VERY important. Being an Incarnate means you're part of an elite group of heroes with powers VASTLY overshadowing that of others of the same type (example, an Incarnate KM/WP Scrapper is vastly more powerful than a level 50 non-Incarnate KM/WP Scrapper). Yes, there are a lot of people that are a part of this "Elite", but the effort and energy those individuals put in to get to that point is in no way diminished or lessened simply because there's a lot of them.
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The way Mender Ramiel sells the story of the Well of the Furies, "you are the only one who can stop them." While you obviously can't be the "only one anything" in a persistent, consistent world, his story did at least try to pretend you could. Canon and facts aside, the spirit of Mender Ramiel's story is one I can respect. It's an ego stroke. "You" are the one that's destined to save us all.
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Originally Posted by Issen
I'm part of a group of ridiculously powerful heroes confronting threats that ordinary heroes stand little chance of taking on by themselves (Apex and Tin Mage TFs make this -very- clear). So I still felt powerful being a part of these Leagues because we (the League) are taking on threats far above and beyond what most normal heroes are use to dealing with. So even though I'm just one person, I'm still one very special person.
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But that's not what happens. You need a mass of people to take on one guy, or one guy and one girl. No matter how elite this mass of people is, clearly that one guy is much more elite than they are. I don't want to be another face in the crowd (largely because I don't like being represented and representing others). I don't want to be in the elite league. I want to be the guy the elite league is struggling to take down. I want to be Marauder, I want to be Bobcat, I want to be Anti-Matter, I want to BE the threat that ordinary heroes and villains stand little chance to take out by themselves and struggle even in large numbers.
Yes, it's an ego trip. That's kind of the point. When I've received the power of the gods, I want to feel like one and act like one. I don't want to be just a very strong elite hero. I don't want to be a Ballista. I expect to have transcended previous boundaries and become something far more. Certainly the wide breadth of different powers we get from the Incarnate system imply we have a multitude of different skills. They imply independence, to my eyes. It is no longer enough to be a specialist in a narrow field, relying on your team to make up for your weaknesses. As a person with godlike power, you're expected to be a specialist in all fields.
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Again, I don't mean to disregard and dismiss your way of seeing the Incarnate system. I just feel you're approaching it from a position of fairly low expectations, because to be honest - you're a member of an elite few even as early as your 40s, when the really big stuff starts happening. Especially the way CoV's Grandville storylines shape up, that's the time you're presented as a bigshot elite. I see the Incarnate system as needing to take the next step, and needing to make that a doozy. No mere increment of power, but a jump in the total scope of storytelling, and I don't mean being dropped in a big bad hostile universe.
At some point, I start wanting to BE the raid boss.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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*bonks Sam on the noggin with a rock*|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I don't want to be in the elite league. I want to be the guy the elite league is struggling to take down. I want to be Marauder, I want to be Bobcat, I want to be Anti-Matter, I want to BE the threat that ordinary heroes and villains stand little chance to take out by themselves and struggle even in large numbers.
Yes, it's an ego trip. That's kind of the point. When I've received the power of the gods, I want to feel like one and act like one. I don't want to be just a very strong elite hero. I don't want to be a Ballista. I expect to have transcended previous boundaries and become something far more. |
*dusts hands*
And THAT is how you take care of one of those "transcended boundaries" types!
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
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Why you little...|
Originally Posted by Melancton
*bonks Sam on the noggin with a rock*
*dusts hands* And THAT is how you take care of one of those "transcended boundaries" types! |
Just you wait. I'm gonna get 20 of my friends, and we are so gonna kick your ***.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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We're not at that point yet.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Yes, it's an ego trip. That's kind of the point. When I've received the power of the gods, I want to feel like one and act like one.
... At some point, I start wanting to BE the raid boss. |
There's still time.
...though, I hear there's at least one mission in new DA where you have the option of denying all assistance.
I haven't played though any of it myself.
61866 - A Series of Unfortunate Kidnappings - More than a coincidence?
2260 - The Burning of Hearts - A green-eyed monster holds the match.
379248 - The Spider Without Fangs - NEW - Some lessons learned (more or less.)
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That's the real kicker - we WERE at that point when we were level 50, and then all of a sudden we're not. Zwillinger's now infamous and oft-quoted "you need to learn to walk before you can run" is the real problem. We should never have been put in a position where all the game's canon enemies race ahead of us and we're left having to catch up once again. What, really, was the point of the last 50 levels if we're going to wipe the board and start the coming of age story all over again, but with bigger stats?|
Originally Posted by TheDeepBlue
We're not at that point yet.
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Incarnates should have been bigger, better and more impressive than the heroes before them, but instead they're a step down, with the eventual promise that maybe, at some point that's still not in the game, they may break even and return to where they were at level 50. That's what I don't like about how the story is being sold, at least through Trials.
As you say, though, Dark Astoria seems to be a step in the right direction, at the very least in terms of presentation.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The world that Rick Dakken created and that Jack Emmert shepherded into existence had more in common with George R.R. Martin's Wild Cards novels than it had with comic books directly. The intent was to envision what a world of superheroes would logically be like. That's why we have an entire history that covers things like the Citizen Crimefighting Act and hero licenses and other trappings that make the world ring true instead of it being simply a world full of costumed vigilantes. That's why there are war walls to hem in the original zone borders instead of the zones just magically being blocked by invisible borders. That's why the original stories tried to treat the villains as mostly three-dimensional, except in the cases of groups like the Freakshow and the Trolls that were inherently two-dimensional and intended to be comedy relief as much as they were intended to be opposition to the heroes.
Nowadays, we have Lord Recluse twirling his mustache and trying to "take over Paragon City" while the meteor storm has things destabilized, as if all it takes is for a villain to get Mary-Anne, er, I mean the Mayor, to sign on the dotted line and deed the ranch, er, the city over to him.
The current shepherds of the story don't see themselves as shepherds, don't care about any story that they didn't create, and they don't see the game as anything more than a virtual comic book.
That's why I don't really get all that concerned about the story any more, except to note when it's really ridiculous. There hasn't been a "story guy" since Arctic Sun who gave a damn about the lore and the current developers put story as a priority very low on the totem pole behind new game systems and bells and whistles.
And the rest is true, as well. Rick Dakan and his team didn't just create a "story," they created a world. They created a world replete with super-powered beings, and then took it upon themselves to guess how such a world could actually operate on a somewhat realistic level. If super heroes existed and war broke out, would governments not try to use them as soldiers? If super heroes could be paid for their would, wouldn't they want to? If science existed to create massive shield walls and portals to other dimensions, how would this affect society? These questions and more are explored, both in-game and in the now many years old history segments, and they make up a believable, persistent world.
But today's writers don't seem to care about a believable, persistent world. They don't seem to care about building anything persistent at all, because they refuse to either lay the foundations of their own stories in a consistent way or use existing foundations from older writing. Things just "happen" with no buildup or integration, and the best explanation we get is that... Well, that was the truth all along, we just didn't know it. Instead of building off of the very cool world the game shipped with and exploring its various assets, recent writers have busied themselves tearing it down and then duct-taping ill-fitting anecdotes in any holes that open up.
There's no longer any respect for the source material, and City of Heroes is rich with source material, lemme' tell ya! It seems like writers these days behave like Architect authors - each one is here to tell his own story about his own characters, lore and player concept be damned. It's actually a common complaint I have with Architect arcs I play, even the ones I'm specifically asked to test-run. But here's the thing - player Architect authors make story arcs for fun, and if they're inconsistent with game lore or presumptuous of character concept, then eh. It was just a player having fun. The official Paragon Studios writers do not have this luxury. I presume they're paid at least in part to write, and they're the ones that are responsible for canon. They need to do better than this.
Even Jack Emmert, the guy we all seem to love to hate, the guy who gets most often accused of creating a Mary Sue, still had the presence of mind to give his character an at least somewhat believable backstory, rooted in the long-term lore of the game and the history of the city. The Statesman, Miss Liberty and Back Alley Brawler are the only people who consistently show up throughout history and help shape the city into what it is.
To claim that "Well, comic book storytelling sucks, so it's OK for City of Heroes storytelling to suck." just doesn't work. For one, I know a fair few people who like to see comic books as a legitimate storytelling medium, home to great stories, both moving and intense. For another, just because something shows up in a comic book, it doesn't mean it's a good idea to put it in the game.