The Well, Praetoria, and Incarnates; Problems with Writing?

Read the latest lore updates posted in this thread today

Thanks for that, GG. Interesting reading.

The only thing that kind of gives me pause about it is how/where dimensions/multiverses factor into things. From canon lore as it currently exists, the Well of Furies apparently represents humanity collectively across dimensions (thus, why it is working with Praetorian Cole as opposed to a Primal Well having chosen Statesman or someone in opposition).

But do the Rikti have their own version of the Well? Or are they still considered "human" enough to be beholden to the "Humanity Multiversal Well"?

Time Travel is also sticky. If the bit about Twilight's Son is true- him having "appended" himself to Humanity's Well in order to restore his powers because the Kheldian Well is destroyed in his future... then it's kind of strange. Couldn't he just tap into the Kheldian Well of the past, in spite of the future one being destroyed? The implication seems to be that there is no alternative timeline wherein the KW is *not* destroyed; it's an inevitable. Because if the Wells are multiversal, then his powers should persist despite the destruction of it in his future timeline.

Still more questions. But it's enlightening all the same.

(Also, random thought: Could Lady Grey be one of the Furies?)

Define "species."

Do mutants get their own, separate Well? Do androids and robots (the ones that are "real" enough to become empowered, that is)? Do the Coralax and the Snakes count as separate species, or are they "just" magically-modified humans? (Ditto for the Arachnoids and the technomagic that Recluse's scientists unwittingly wrought on them.) What about the Devouring Earth? Or the elves, the dragons, and the catgirls?

I'm wondering if it was always planned this way, or if it was an Author's Saving Throw?

Regardless, the only real issue I have with the new lore is that it treats humanity's power-mad nature as a new thing. We've always been that way, because that's pretty much how evolution works. The species that's best at manipulating its environment always wins, and killing other species is a pretty straightforward and efficient way of manipulating problems away, while subjugating them turns a problem into a bountiful resource. Nature is a competition to see who can become the ultimate killing machine and humanity won by a landslide sometime around 15,000 years ago. All (admittedly limited) knowledge that we have states that everywhere and everywhen, life itself is designed to kill.

The full Shivan text from the Drowning in Blood Trial is now here in the Shivan spoiler thread:

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...86&postcount=6

I think you're over thinking it, Sam.

The Well is a personification, way I see it. It's representative of Humanity. It's kind of like a mirror, at least it seems to be.

So, for Star, there's no need to tie her into the Well, much the same way as I'm not tying Alpha or the Chief. Alpha is a construct, a robot. As such he doesn't think in the same way humans do, doesn't have the same inherent limits. In a way, he doesn't have any barriers; he'll just steadily keep getting better and better. Ditto for the Chief, especially since he wasn't made on Earth.

The Primal Earth Well is purely a representative. It doesn't have to grant power, not the way it seems now. So even though the visible, semi-sentient part may be a bit bonkers at present, that doesn't stop people drawing on the 'Font of Potential' of Earth or the Human race. It seems like an enabler, something to break down the barriers humans have inherently. So, even characters that don't draw on it directly can still interact with the effects it has on the world.


Lord that sounded rambly. Hope it made some sense XD

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Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Folks, anytime we look too hard at mapping systems meant to set boundaries in a game system and looking at how they would map into "real life" such as we might create in fiction, be it canon or fan-fic, we always find that they don't work. Sure, some creations map better than others, but I have never found a game system that divided people, powers, origins, or anything into neat categories that actually didn't break down if you really thought about it too hard.

What that doesn't mean is that no such system should be created for games or related media. It just means we're expected to have either really resilient suspension of disbelief, or just expected not to think this hard about this kind of stuff (which is sort of the same thing).

Long before the Origin of Power story that so many people here rail about, the Origin system never made sense even for existing characters. Is my Blaster who was dunked in coolant infused with Portal Corp energies that gave him Ice Blast powers, but who is a brilliant engineer who builds his own Devices weapons a Science or Technology character? What if his ice powers were a genetic mutation he was born with, and his secondary came from studying magic? What if you have a railgun engraved with accuracy-increasing runes?

The point is that even something as 0-day as the original Origin system made no sense if you thought about it too hard. Nothing in stuff like this does.

It's just my opinion, but if your roleplay sense of this stuff starts getting in the way of your ability to enjoy the game for what it is, I think you're doing it wrong.

ES: Good post, good analogy, and I chuckled at the image of the henchmen playing cards in limbo.

UG: Telling people "don't look at this too closely" is (a) pretty much futile, considering the sort of people (ie, lore nerds) we're talking about/to; and (b) shouldn't that equally apply to the devs, in the form of "don't explain this too much"?

Seriously, what you're saying is only a step away from "none of this matters or makes sense anyway, so stop talking and thinking and caring about it." Consider that this thread started from the premise that "eh, just ignore it" is not a real solution.

Here's something else that I thought of - it's been hinted that the Well is being "directed" in some way - so maybe Tyrant is the one doing the directing?
Like the Well's "personality" is shaped by humanity - so what if Tyrant's power-obsessed dictatirship over a major center of humanity in the multiverse had tipped the Well into its current power-obsessed mindset, meaning that it would respond to Tyrant's use of his power, and so give him even more power to use to gain even more power from it?
By using his power over Praetoria, Tyrant could have manipulated the Well into responding to power, guaranteeing him a limitless kind of power-up from it.

Skimmed the last few pages, read a lot of the rest.

One thing that I think some people are missing when they say "ignore it" (and yes, that is a valid thing to say) is that pretty much everyone who's saying "We can't ignore the sentient puddle of mild annoyance" is, to some extent or another, a roleplayer.

And one thing roleplayers like is consistency in the world they're roleplaying in.

Take Union, for example, where we have a general RP rule-of-thumb that we are ALL roleplaying in the same world. Events that happen to someone can (for example) appear on the news and other people can talk about them. That's why we have those update threads. It is (to use a term I use a lot) "shared storytelling".

But one thing we all basically agree on is that the game setting is the same for everyone. It's City of Heroes. Canon is canon is canon.

At least, that was the rule until Incarnates came along and the puddle got thrown in our faces.

I don't want my main to be beholden to the puddle for anything. His powers derive from a very specific source, which isn't even in Primal Earth's dimension. But even if that weren't true, when I roleplay him (and he's a T3/4 incarnate in everything out so far) there exists no place in his backstory for the Well.

Yes, I could shoehorn it in. I don't want to, and I see no reason that I should actually have to for a character that has existed longer than CoH has, and who the Science origin fit perfectly before Incarnates came along.

My other option is to ignore the Well, then. Okay, but... what about Hypothetical Roleplayer X who doesn't ignore the well? Canonically, he has the right to say "Shad, your main is empowered by the Well, it can take his power away whenever it wants, do whatever it wants to". Canon says X is right. My character's story says X is not right. Do I, therefore, have to rewrite my character's story, which I was roleplaying in CoH for 5 years before Incarnates hit, to accommodate a sudden behind-the-scenes alteration to the way the entire game-world works?

My character, my background, Paragon Studios' World. But the re-write of how powers exist is incompatible with my character's background. Not "fudgably tweakably" incompatible. No, it's "my character has actually been RUINED" incompatible.

Thus far, I've managed to avoid any difficult situations that would cause friction about me playing my toon is a slightly different version of reality to someone who strictly follows canon, but should I really have to? I had 5 years where my character fit perfectly with the way everyone understood the game world to work. It's bizarre but it fits. Now? Broken. And I either ignore the Puddle (been doing that so far) or I re-write my character (not going to happen - he's existed since 1999). Or, the third option is that the devs make it clear that the sentient Well of the Furies is actually a bluff, and the ultimate source of power in the multiverse is something else entirely, and the "being" we're calling The Well is pulling a long con.

Other people may not agree with me, but that is why I have a problem.