The Well, Praetoria, and Incarnates; Problems with Writing?

You misread the bit about being controlled by the Well

Ah, so because one aspect of my message was mildly incorrect, the rest of it can be dismissed? How typical.

Confusing the ability of the Well to control us or not isn't exactly "mildly incorrect"

This did make sense, but you're actually saying the same thing I am. At this point, the only good story about the Well is a story we can sidestep entirely. Realistically, speaking, though, that's kinda' sorta' what choice is all about.

Prior to the Origin of Powers, I could integrate my character in City of Heroes' canon as much or as little as I wanted. I could, in a sense, create a character who exists in a bubble of his own story, and who interacts with the City of Heroes universe only as a visitor, to where his backstory, source of power and personality are defined by events completely unrelated to City of Heroes at all. I could, if I were so inclined, take an existing character and put him through City of Heroes to see how he reacts, in a sort of Megazord vs. Mechagodzilla crossing or unrelated storylines. I could, and no-one would care, because the story did not assume I wanted to follow it. That's part of what made it so good for me - I could pick and choose which storylines I wanted my characters to be involved and which I wanted nothing to do with.

I agree with you that - if at all possible - I will ignore the Well's angle of granting me powers. But that's kind of my point. The best the Well's story right now can hope for is to be ignored, and that's a cryin' shame, because it had the potential to be something really good.

Ouch... Good example, and very spot on. And I agree with you as a general thing. Certain things simply don't need to be explained. More specifically, things that relate to our characters are often best left unexplained. How did I get my powers? While I may write that down in my character info, the game can't know, so the writers can't write stories that rely on that. What's my species? The game can't know, so it can't be made to need to know.

What the game CAN know is things that are rigidly-defined. Is my character male or female? Is my character a hero or a villain or somewhere in-between? Has my character done a certain bit of content? What is my character's rough power level? Have I been to a particular location? All of these things are either rigidly defined or highly specific. And even they are sometimes problematic. What, for instance, is a Vigilante supposed to be? A jerk who kills people? A hero who breaks the law in the pursuit of justice? An insane killer who just happens to violently murder mostly evil people? There's a whole spectrum here that isn't easily covered by a single notation, especially since a Vigilante can go to the Rogue Isles and do Newspaper missions there.

Generally speaking, when it comes to our characters, I feel it's best to leave as much as possible undefined, and thus open for us to define on our own. The more of our characters we can tailor to our own stories, the closer a connection we'll have with those characters.

That's the biggest irony here, I think. The Well itself is not a bad idea. When I first did Ramiel's arc, I left pumped up, eagerly anticipating the future developments of this story. Sure, I was getting power from the Well, but it didn't feel like the original source of my original power, and it also felt like I was cheating a bad guy out of his power. It was still mine, I just got it by taking it from someone else as opposed to punching people in the face. Scarlet Shocker already showed us how cool the Well could have been...

But then the ret-cons started, and those were ret-cons about MY characters and MY stories, and those were ret-cons that really didn't contribute anything to either the game or my enjoyment of it. Forcing every player through the same hole in the writing is never a good idea for the simple fact that you end up having to hammer a LOT of square pegs into that round hole. And again, what does this accomplish, but to stifle freedom of interpretation?

Now, I get that we needed SOMETHING to signify our transcendence into godhood, a sort of milestone entry into the "end game," and that got rolled into one with the plot device to essentially demote the Statesman. I get that. But I'd still have gone with an actual milestone, instead - some kind of activity that was taught impossible to do by anyone except for the Statesman (and possibly Recluse) that we do, which then starts a series of questions to learn how we were able to do it, which ultimately boils down to "We don't know. You're probably just awesome."

Mind you, we could still have had the Well of the Furies and Tyrant and the Batallion and so forth, but WE didn't have to be linked to it. Have Ramiel suggest it, then have it become apparent that we can't use it or it'll control us, then we go off looking for other ways, and then it turns out "the answer was inside you all along." Problem solved. You get your crossover storyline, I get to participate in it only if I specifically write myself into it.

In other words, "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain." I'm sorry, Guy, but that's simply not something I can agree with. Sure, no game system can be perfect, but if you're gonna' make a game system out of a previously-undefined pure story concept, then it has to pass at least some fairly stringent level of scrutiny. Because if it can't... Why mess with it at all? Why create such a specific, elaborate game system if you don't expect it to be scrutinised with at least as much specificity? Any time you create a system that writes players' characters for them, it WILL be scrutinised, and not even pedantically. Every time a player wonders "I wonder if I can make..." said player will scrutinise the system to see if that's possible, and the holes will show up.

As far as I'm concerned, the smarter storytelling approach would have been to simply not make the system as specific and as elaborate. Origins are a great example of this. Speaking of which...

You exaggerate. The concept of Dual Origins has been suggested for as long as I remember, and if it weren't for Origin-specific enhancements, that might have happened. Hell, I've suggested we be allowed to type in our origin by hand as plain text, and I don't recall that many people disagreeing, just most taking little interest. Furthermore, origins overlap in a lot of places, so oftentimes it's possible to pick just one origin based on which of the two is more pronounced and stick with that. It's not idea, but it's the best we have, because, really, it just doesn't matter.

And this is where Origins differ from the Well of the Furies, or used to, at least. No matter what Origin you picked, what that Origin actually meant was up to you to write out in full. The Origin definition gives some examples and ideas, but is otherwise fairly open to interpretation. And if you chose an unorthodox interpretation, then the game really wouldn't tell you otherwise. Sure, your technodemon might need to implant around 11 cybernetic eyes into his head, but at no point in the storyline did anyone ever ask you why you have 13 eyes in the front of your face.

If gameplay and story segregation is to be embraced, then this is gameplay pure and simple. So long as the story doesn't bring it up, we won't bring it up as players. The trouble with the Well is that the story DOES bring it up, and repeatedly. I can ignore Origins because no-one ever talks about them, aside from the exceedingly bad Origin of Powers arc, which I can also ignore. But the Well? It's all over Incarnate lore. It's quite literally impossible to ignore it without simultaneously ignoring story as a "thing." It's like trying to play the game while ignoring the fact that people have legs. Short of sticking black masking tape on your screen where the legs are, it's a pretty damn hard thing to ignore.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Actually, from the sounds of it, Ramiel DID balls up quite badly with his description of the well. Or they haven't gone back and fixed him yet.

Sylph posted on the Beta boards what is gatherable from various story sources now;

So...the Well is just a representative of the combined potential of -race X-. Which leaves lots of room for characters that circumvent that, embrace it, work partially with it or it's just not applicable to.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Not going to get into a semantic argument with you. Corrected. Next pointless and unnecessary objection?

Don't bother. You can't win, and you'll just leave dirty.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

It's a totally vital plot point for the entire Incarnate storyline - it's very important to get it right

What?? The guy who introduces the Incarnate lore to the players gives out incorrect information??

Does this mean a retcon is afoot?

Is what Sylph sharing available currently on the Live version, or does it also contain information only in the Beta version currently testing on Beta?
(Which is what I am inferring.) This could change the mix a great deal, but it also seems to canonize the notion that you cannot ever take what you are told at face value, even in the tutorial Incarnate arc.

I believe all of that is Beta only. There's even more talking about natural origins and such too.

Once again corn-holing actual villains into 'helping out for the greater good.' I'm getting real tired of this pseudo-villain crap. I want the devs to take a firm stance and tell us whether or not we'll ever have actual villainy. The most evil thing a villain player has the chance to do is kill Alexis Cole-Duncan, and the Westin Phipps arc. Other than that, it's either "work as some dude's errand boy" or "aid the heroes for the greater good."

Enhancements only serve to make the problem that comes of examining the system worse. Our characters have one Origin. Just one. If I take my Blaster dude who's concept best matches Science/Tech, and whose origin I chose as Science, I can happily slot him with Science/Mutation DOs. What's that all about, right?

And that is my whole point. About all of it. The Well doesn't matter. Its gloss. Is it gloss that could have been written better? Abso-freaking-lutely. I think some folks just get much too invested in that, to the point that they simply can't accept it because it doesn't work under scrutiny.

And I just think that's silly.

Honestly, I don't think it needs to.

I think this story of the Well is a great example. I happen to think they did a fine job of creating something to try and explain why "Incarnate" level power should be identifiable as something distinct from other supers. I have no problem with it in general because I saw it from the very first descriptions of it as a manifestation of concept that was created by humans (and metahumans), not the other way around. I saw that as suitably abstract. I don't think the devs did what you're saying they did. I think they explained it just enough.

So where do we draw the line?

No, that's not what I'm saying. That's the reductio ad absurdum version of my position.

Everyone has a BS threshold that plots and stories can cross at which point their suspension of disbelief gets shot. The assertion by a lot of people who argue against this stuff seems to me to be that only their threshold is valid - if their suspension of disbelief is broken, the story is unacceptable overall and should be fixed. Some of these people happen to have very low thresholds on top of this.

What I am trying to argue is that people ought to step back and evaluate whether their threshold really is reasonable, or said another way, whether the threshold the devs hit seems reasonable for the medium in question. This is a video game about comic books. Neither is well known as a bastion of internal plot consistency or literary merit. Granted, some of what is being argued is definitely germane to the context, like whether our characters should be treated as 1st-class protagonists or lackeys, but a lot of it seems to focus on the consistency and quality of the storytelling.

I don't think being a self-proclaimed lore geek is much excuse for overdoing one's reaction to this stuff. And while I can't claim my (higher) threshold for plot holes and the like is any more correct than someone with a lower one, when they start taking the tone some posters here do about it, I can think they've let it go too far overall.

I'm not sure what you mean here. What it's "about" is the concept of specialisation that was inherent in the old Origins system that got tossed out. Those who specialise are stronger in their specialisation, and those who generalise have more tools, but they aren't as powerful. Dual-Origin enhancements are broad-application tools that many people can use, thus they are less powerful. Single-Origin enhancements are specialised exactly for the origin they enhance, and are thus more powerful.

In a sense, that's actually disappointing, as "dual origins" are a great way to mimic an overall dual origin. For instance, Xanta is of a Science origin as she gets her powers from scientific experimentation and an innate exposure to Superadine. That's a pretty clear origin, but when it came to DOs, I had a choice - Science/Technology or Science/Mutation. Conceptually speaking, that's not a meaningless choice. As she doesn't use technology of any kind, Science/Mutation made sense.

Again, that's game systems limiting conceptual interpretation, but it's not limited by much in this case.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Origins don't matter because, Origin of Power notwithstanding, the storyline never brings them up. You're never discriminated against based on origin, you're never granted specific access based on your origin. Only a very few instances exist where your origin COULD play a role in Praetorian dialogue trees. When disarming a bomb, a tech character can notice the hidden wire, a Natural character is fast enough to yank both wires fast enough and so forth. But even then, that's optional, as you could simply pick the other option and fail to defuse the bomb properly.

The Well of the Furies is different. It is the gateway and plot thread to the whole Incarnate system. There is no way to skip references to the Well, no way to sidestep its influence. The Well of the Furies IS the story. The only way to ignore it is to claim what's written on the screen isn't true, and that's head and shoulders above Origins. If I don't like the Origin of Powers arc, I can simply not do it. If I manage to get to 35 without having ever spoken with Ashley McKnight, the first thing she'll offer me is the arc to enter the Midnight Club, and it turns out I may not even need that if Beta is any indication.

If I want to ignore origins, I can avoid references to them. If I want to ignore the Well of the Furies, then I have to either not do any Incarnate content or otherwise plug my eyes and ears sing. Your example is not equivalent. As long as the Well is written as the ONLY source of power, this problem will persist. It will only go away if I'm given an alternative which lets me bypass references to the Well, or otherwise if the Well's omni-presence as an all-power source is demoted to A-power source.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

If I recall correctly, this is how it's always kind of been. Humanity sustains the Well. The Well spits stuff back out to humanity.

I think I might've said this before, but given what the Well is, its attachment likely isn't to biology, but to culture. There's more room for association there.

I believe Prometheus states that you may or may not be the successor of a past Incarnate; if you aren't, you're likely to represent a concept which humanity hasn't had an Incarnate of yet. The player is in the best position to decide what the case is.

I was under the impression that it was taking orders from 'higher up', so to speak, not 'down below'.

I mean, if anything.

I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding here. If the Well of the Furies lore is my mother saying "You'll eat it and like it!" then my responses to it aren't "I'd rather starve!" so much as "I'll eat it, but I won't like it." I'm not refusing to touch any Incarnate content because it's "tainted." I'll be all over Dark Astoria when that comes out. What I'm saying is that while I WILL play the new Incarnate content, I'll enjoy it more if it's not presumptuous.

Obviously, I can't speak for everyone here, only for myself. However, at the same time, being willing to ignore part of the story shouldn't obligate me to never ask for it to be written better.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

the difference being you see the incarnate storyline as a springboard while others see walls.

Not so. The first time, you said "look, this doesn't make sense and it never did, so just ignore it." When I pointed out that this isn't a practical or satisfying solution (sure we can do that, but we'd rather that it was good so we don't have to), you came back and tried to give a reason why it doesn't and shouldn't be expected to make sense - that this is just a silly video game about silly comic books and we're silly for expecting more. (Clearly we should just mash buttons and go "ooooh" at the flashy lights as our "toons" beat up bad guys. And eat the tasty food pellets, I mean loot drops, of course.)

See? Different arguments.

I don't see what you're distinguishing as two different arguments as two different things at all. The second post I made was nothing but a specification of the first post. Your rejection of my second post was just a reiteration of your first rejection, with my specification tacked on the front.

Me: X
You: X is dumb because X taken to extreme is obviously unacceptable
Me: X when Y
You: X when Y is dumb because X taken to extreme when Y is obviously unacceptable

You didn't change anything meaningful, because in both cases you reduced my position to ludicrous extreme in order to argue against it.

Meanwhile, you're apparently completely unwilling to acknowledge that these conclusions you have about the quality of the writing and story are subjective and not absolute. You and I might share the notion that the writing could be better, but I do not share your (and others') assertion that it is crap. (Specifically inferred by me from your reference to it being something that is "shoveled" at us.)

You're entitled to your opinion. I can't argue with any of you that your opinion is wrong. I can try to point out that I think your opinions are founded on expectations I think are unrealistic for the medium. I honestly don't see any examples in this medium that are significantly better, because unlike you, I don't see the lore we're given here as restrictive. I liked the analogy of the lore as a springboard and not a wall, given above.

You want an example of lore in this game that's not like that, and that I do dislike actively? The way Villains are beholden to Arachnos for their rise to power. Like Sam says, that Lore I swallow but do not like. The Well of the Furies? Not like that to me.

See, I don't make that distinction. It doesn't matter to me that Origins aren't woven into the story. I know they're out there. To me, there's no difference in ignoring something we're told in one place and ignoring something we bump into repeatedly. Both are equivalent "facts" of game lore. Ignoring or accepting them has the same consequences for me in terms of my inner sense of roleplay. If I holistically rejected Origins, that would bug me just as much as holistically rejecting the Well. To refer back to an old thread discussion, the fact that aliens are lumped under the Natural Origin bugs me just as much (probably more) as any of the plot holes in the Well story do. Which admittedly isn't much, but I don't ignore it more because it's not a big part of the game story. It's in there, so it matters to me.