The Well, Praetoria, and Incarnates; Problems with Writing?
By
AkuTenshiiZero,
Posted on: 2012-01-14 01:40 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
They're not that different, actually |
Originally Posted by Mr_Mud
the issue 1 praetorians are unrecognisable from what we have now).
|
Quote:
| Every single incarnate trial up to this point has been linked to the Praetorians, ignoring something like the Shadow Shard which had unlimited potential for end-game play. |
Quote:
| There is no need for a Praetorian presence in the updated Dark Astoria, for example. |
Quote:
| And as I mentioned, the Praetorians were retconned. I prefered them as two-dimensional 'Mirror Mirror' rip offs, to be honest. The grim and gritty sci-fi world of Praetoria is all well and good, but doesn't feel particularly like I'm playing a superhero game, to be honest. |
Quote:
| The Coming Storm has been executed perfectly in my opinion. It hasn't dominated parts of the game it doesn't need to dominate. It hasn't been shoehorned into every update to the point of fatigue. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
The ideal model should have been the Rikti. They came as a big hit, lots of nice content. They still crop up from time to time, so they don't get old.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Well, as it's a major plotline, it won't ever finish - once the dimensional war part is over, we'll be helping and getting help from Praetoria against the Coming Storm.
|
But the Praetorianshey guys! Praetorians! So cool! You know you want more! Let's introduce them here! And here too! Ooh, and hereandhereandDon't you LOVE Praetoria? Huh? HUH?!
That's how it feels. It gets old fast.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
 |
Quote:
But they're not nearly as complex or as easy to relate to as the Praetorians - the Rikti are just a faceless horde of aliens, while the Praetorians are normal humans, with all kinds of plots and subplots going on - like a couple of new ones have started in started in DA, because the Praetors and their wacky antics have so much scope for development.
|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
The ideal model should have been the Rikti. They came as a big hit, lots of nice content. They still crop up from time to time, so they don't get old.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Not taking the |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
What lines? The Well doesn't come anywhere near the edge of the T rating
 |
bait, GG. You argue this just to hear yourself argue. Fool me once and all that.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
The problems/weaknesses of the story would be much more forgivable if the story itself hadn't dragged on for so long. Players are fatigued. Praetoria as a starter zone, the apex and tin mage tf, and possibly a Tyrant TF, are all that should have been done Praetoria-wise. Forcing it into incarnate lore, alignment switching, First Ward, and now Dark Astoria (which is beyond rediculous) doesn't really add anything to the meta-story of the game.
As for the Well of the Furies? Well...you know something is a bad idea storywise when the majority of the games roleplayers ignore it. |
I take your point but I'd say there's a massive caveat there: IF the story was any good, people would be loving it - but sadly the whole thing seems to be built by a committee of accountants, not creative artists.
Personally I feel that since the news of GR broke what we've been experiencing is a great uplift in quality of the game in terms of graphics, powers, and mechanics, but the story has plummeted in quality at the same time.
I am constantly left totally undewhelmed by the dogpile we are given as "story" these days.
Thelonious Monk
So that's another one who can be filed under "I don't like the story, so it must be a bad story".
I don't really like Star Trek - but I don't think it's a bad story - it's just not something that really appeals to me - I don't need to try and make up reasons why it might be a bad story to try and explain why I don't really like it - I just accept that there are loads of different styles and tastes, and that not everyone will like everything.
I also don't feel the need to tell Star Trek fans why their story "sucks".
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Wow, ignorance much?|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
So that's another one who can be filed under "I don't like the story, so it must be a bad story".
I don't really like Star Trek - but I don't think it's a bad story - it's just not something that really appeals to me - I don't need to try and make up reasons why it might be a bad story to try and explain why I don't really like it - I just accept that there are loads of different styles and tastes, and that not everyone will like everything. I also don't feel the need to tell Star Trek fans why their story "sucks". |
There is a MASSIVE difference between "This isn't my cup of tea, thus I am in no place to judge" and "I have invested in this universe and this story, and this latest edition of the story has been below established standard."
It's like a whole new writer coming onto a team and ignoring all that's past to 'Do his/her own thing' because it MUST be cooler. And all that does is annoy people.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
Quote:
Agreed completely. Retro-fitting stuff seems to be common place given that Positron (the character) is suddenly super duper important. To be honest I have little hope for this game's storyline ever since I heard one of the devs say they weren't going to touch on old plot threads because they were:|
Originally Posted by Mr_Mud
Something like the Well of the Furies wouldn't have been so bad if it had been the explanation for superpowers when the game was launched. Sort of how Freedom Force's universe was entirely built on the arrival of Energy X to Earth. The problem arose when the devs tried to shoehorn it into the game hideously late in the day; and to make matters worse, decided to shoehorn the Praetorians into everything at the same time.
|
"Someone else's stories who're no longer with the company".
Any writer of an ongoing serial that says the above should consider another profession. The old plot points are not "someone else's stories". The new plot points are not "your stories". The CoH game lore is bigger than any one writer and should be treated with respect accordingly...rather than as a platform to introduce some completely random concepts that have little to do with the existing lore. This isn't fanfiction; the contributions of all writers should feed into the general narrative, rather than from it.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
How is Praetoria being "forced" into a Praetorian zone?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
So where should the Diabolique story go after First Ward?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
I take your point but I'd say there's a massive caveat there: IF the story was any good, people would be loving it - but sadly the whole thing seems to be built by a committee of accountants, not creative artists.
Personally I feel that since the news of GR broke what we've been experiencing is a great uplift in quality of the game in terms of graphics, powers, and mechanics, but the story has plummeted in quality at the same time. I am constantly left totally undewhelmed by the dogpile we are given as "story" these days. |
Quote:
Yes, they are.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
They're not that different, actually
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
So the endgame should only have one storyline, and not have several? The Praetorian war is just the first story of the incarnate ssytem - afeter that, we'll move onto the second story about the Coming Storm.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
So where should the Diabolique story go after First Ward?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That's why they're the enemies
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
You shouldn't say that until it arrives
|
Quote:
Yeah, so stop quoting her. A lot of people have her on ignore and people quoting her circumvents that.|
Originally Posted by Melancton
Not taking the
bait, GG. You argue this just to hear yourself argue. Fool me once and all that. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
It's like a whole new writer coming onto a team and ignoring all that's past to 'Do his/her own thing' because it MUST be cooler. And all that does is annoy people.
|
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Itrials may have been more interesting and appealing if they didnt have a connected story line much like task forces. Not all TFs in game are against the Rikti or Nemesis. They each have their own differing story involving different enemy groups. They should have applied that logic to trials. One trial against Praetorians, another involving the Shard, another against Mot (without Praetorian involvement). Each trial making players FEEL like theyre going up against the BIGGEST threats facing the CoH universe.
Two things are needed for comic books - good art and good stories. One alone wont sell books and keep them afloat. While the art in CoH continually improves, it does seem that the story quality has declined and stagnated - Praetoria, Praetoria, Praetoria zzzzz. Someone mentioned they felt this started happening around Going Rogue but I think I started to notice it around the 5th Column VS Council nonsense. That seemed forced and unnecessary however, it didnt continually get forced down our throats constantly like Praetoria is.
Sadly it feels like when Bendis took over writing for The Avengers. Forget what came before me, I want to tell MY stories and who cares about characterization and continuity.
Quote:
Give some examples |
Originally Posted by Mr_Mud
Yes, they are.
|
Quote:
| Seems to me all we have so far is exactly that - one storyline. Praetorians, praetorians and more praetorians. |
Quote:
| IDGAF. |
I don't play red side, but I'm totally ok with the devs making stories about the Rogue isles.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
But people were asking for more Praetorian content - not everyone like the way the GR content cut off at 20 - and there are still people asking for a full 1-50 Praetorian experience.|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
The zone could have easilly been repurposed as a Paragon Zone.
|
Quote:
|
Who cares.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
No there isn't.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But people were asking for more Praetorian content - not everyone like the way the GR content cut off at 20 - and there are still people asking for a full 1-50 Praetorian experience.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The people who like the story?
|
Quote:
There are still people who want to play as a Praetorian without having to ever go to Primal Earth - before First Ward, there were 6 people who'd actually hit 50 in Praetoria by exemplaring for the last 30 levels.|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
No there isn't.
|
Quote:
| Who? |
And there are people who want to know what happens to Katie Douglas - and the devs have said that we'll get that storyline too.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
So that's another one who can be filed under "I don't like the story, so it must be a bad story".
I don't really like Star Trek - but I don't think it's a bad story - it's just not something that really appeals to me - I don't need to try and make up reasons why it might be a bad story to try and explain why I don't really like it - I just accept that there are loads of different styles and tastes, and that not everyone will like everything. I also don't feel the need to tell Star Trek fans why their story "sucks". |
I've seen your horse come up with better answers than that from it's rear end!
There are plenty of stories that I may not like, or feel comfortable with or just not take to - both in this game and without. That doesn't mean I actively dislike those stories or consider them bad. Mostly stories like that leave me with a sense of profound ambivalence.
But I genuinely think most of the end game story is complete stool water. It's inconsistent, gimmicky, and actually not very well written.
Not every story can be great, but equally not every story should be dreadful but many of the end games seem to end up that way - often because of cheating mechanics but also because of the borked fundamental premise.
Thelonious Monk
Quote:
Not everyone genuinely thinks the same as you though.
|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
I genuinely think
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
So there''s 6 people who want more Praetoria content.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
There are still people who want to play as a Praetorian without having to ever go to Primal Earth - before First Ward, there were 6 people who'd actually hit 50 in Praetoria by exemplaring for the last 30 levels.
|
Not exactly a big number haha!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The people who enjoyed the first Ward stories. And there are people who want to know what happens to Katie Douglas - and the devs have said that we'll get that storyline too.
|
You can say Golden Girl cares. But who else? Where are the posts from people clamouring to know how Diabolique's story works out? Where's your evidence?
Quote:
For whatever it's worth, almost all of the female Praetors are oddly interchangeable for me. Is Mother Mayhem different than Diabolique? Is Diabolique different than Dominatrix? I know who Black Swan is, she's just Swan, the one who everyone thinks is Natalie Portman.|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
Where are the posts from people clamouring to know how Diabolique's story works out?
|
I honestly thought there was enough storytelling bloat to go around without introducing a mirror world where everything is the same but different and everyone is really into leather. What about half the Vindicators we have now? What about those guys who were introduced with the Korean launch of City of Hero? I couldn't care less about Praetor Hoohah, quite honestly, and the whole of the WWD arc has been far more interesting than the Praetorian/Incarnate stuff to me so far.
Quote:
We are too busy playing the game to worry about those who don't like the story.
|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
So there''s 6 people who want more Praetoria content.
Not exactly a big number haha! |
Quote:
Although I don't agree with your stance, I cannot un-agree with the above. Perfectly stated.|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
Agreed completely. Retro-fitting stuff seems to be common place given that Positron (the character) is suddenly super duper important. To be honest I have little hope for this game's storyline ever since I heard one of the devs say they weren't going to touch on old plot threads because they were:
"Someone else's stories who're no longer with the company". Any writer of an ongoing serial that says the above should consider another profession. The old plot points are not "someone else's stories". The new plot points are not "your stories". The CoH game lore is bigger than any one writer and should be treated with respect accordingly...rather than as a platform to introduce some completely random concepts that have little to do with the existing lore. This isn't fanfiction; the contributions of all writers should feed into the general narrative, rather than from it. |
However, there comes a problem. Some don't like when you ad hominem content, twisting it so it fits what you need to tell a particular story to progress plot a certain way. For instance, people that like First Ward may have liked it better that the original writer finish it vs another writer 3yrs down the line bending it to tell some story about Mako or Scirocco. Sure, the new writer is progressing the main plot with other story ends, but for what?
That said, I wouldn't mind having old plots revisited but, for pure example, I probably wouldn't enjoy there being a link between Dark Astoria and the Shadow Shard (I really do not like the SS, not the zone, the plot is meh, and I don't care for it much at all...I like the concept of a dimension eater, but that is all) just to springboard new stuff about Rularuu.
It all comes down to 'you won't please everyone all the time'...
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
No there isn't.
Who? |
I really enjoyed First Ward and Going Rouge wasn't bad. Is the Well a bit grating on concepts? Perhaps, I tend to ignore it though. I consider Incarnates special and don't pursue them for every character. IOs are what I consider epitome of potential and an IOed character is surely plenty strong to take on any content. It's those characters I consider above that or are so dead-set on more power, from any source they can get their hands on, do they seek the well...but then that's just my rationale. I don't claim to make all my characters so 1337 that they could not be used, manipulated or fooled by the well.
But if one must go against the grain, nudging the story to work for their concept, then HURRAY! That's what you're suppose to do!!
The forums are no measure of community thoughts and feelings, because only a specific kind of player visits them. There isn't really any good measure of community thoughts and feelings except a mandatory random poll. The facts and evidence needed to argue about how the community feels about any given plot just don't exist.
That doesn't mean that a given piece of work can't be objectively bad, though. Murdering good ideas by overexposing them has a long and bloody history in comic books, but I think CoX could stand not to emulate it regardless. No one liked X3: Wolverine and Friends, nor was Origins too well received, and part of it is because Wolverine wasn't nearly as cool after two straight hours.
Remember: Too much of a good thing is an awesome thing. But too much of an awesome thing is...um...really, really dumb and bad.
As is quickly becoming standard, however, I reserve final judgment until after I've actually played through the endgame content.
Quote:
I think you've stated my problem with Preatorians. We've had too much of them already. Just like marvel has overused Wolverine. It's come to the point that I no longer care about the story when I play the trials.|
Originally Posted by RuthlessSamael
The forums are no measure of community thoughts and feelings, because only a specific kind of player visits them. There isn't really any good measure of community thoughts and feelings except a mandatory random poll. The facts and evidence needed to argue about how the community feels about any given plot just don't exist.
That doesn't mean that a given piece of work can't be objectively bad, though. Murdering good ideas by overexposing them has a long and bloody history in comic books, but I think CoX could stand not to emulate it regardless. No one liked X3: Wolverine and Friends, nor was Origins too well received, and part of it is because Wolverine wasn't nearly as cool after two straight hours. Remember: Too much of a good thing is an awesome thing. But too much of an awesome thing is...um...really, really dumb and bad. As is quickly becoming standard, however, I reserve final judgment until after I've actually played through the endgame content. |
There are dozens of stories that could have been focused on in the time that they've been focusing on goatee universe.
People have been asking for the continuation of plots such as the Shadow Shard for ages, or the long hinted Blood of the Blackstream, for examples.
Thankfully the Battlion are coming.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
They're also coming for Praetoria |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Thankfully the Battlion are coming.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
The Well is kinda like the Force - it has a will, but we can manipulate its power - there's really nothing unusual about a mysterious power source in a sci-fi/fantasy setting
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork