Originally Posted by Xanatos
![]() No there isn't.
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![](http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/KojiroJames/neversurrendersig.jpg)
Originally Posted by Xanatos
![]() No there isn't.
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We often refer to anything that seems unimaginably more powerful as a god.
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Pandora's box didn't actually GRANT super powers, but it basically removed a mental block on human minds. (And I mean human minds)
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Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I prefer to know when I'm wrong, because it's better to be on the same page with reality. So, as I'm likely to do, I went back over this page a second time and reread, and reconsidered all the main points being made against stuff me and others had written. And I'm honestly relieved to say I'm coming up dry this time. An elephant in the room needs to be necessarily large for people to eventually notice it, Scarlet Shocker, and I haven't seen many people at all noticing Matt Miller's hubristic love affair with Positron. I can say with a complete lack of sarcasm that I'm sorry you're not enjoying the story these days, but it almost feels like you're looking as hard as you can for things not to like. Well, you'll always find them, if that's your attitude. You're an eloquent writer, but it's not confidence-inspiring that you resorted to calling names when your worry about a classic redemption story was deflated.
It's one thing to tell the writers what you're looking for (feedback is awesome), but when the quality of your feedback has spiraled to the point of-- Congratulations, you've now entered the realm of utterly unconstructive feedback. As much as critics like [CENSORED] and [CENSORED] and [CENSORED] are called big grumps around here (resisting the urge to name names, but it's never hard to guess), they back their criticisms up with "But how about this idea?" every single time. I'm going to re-quote something you said earlier because it's something I can't argue with, the previous non-linearity of Origins compared to the restriction on creative freedom presented to us by the evolution of "The Well" storyline-- YES, give us back the ability to stay within canon AND write our own godlike power origins. We definitely disagree about the quality of the writing. I think the writing is great in older arcs (many of which are "new" to me, as I'm just now stumbling into them), and I love how the devs liked to build all the different storylines into BIG REVEALS. But I also think the writing is great in newer content. It's different, that's for sure, but in some places more mature. So I guess some people have one opinion and some others have another. Big shocker. ![]() |
I was going to go on a diatribe about how the newer story arcs give more choices but put more words into your mouth, without the ability to change your mind (the difference between threatening to snap a D.U.S.T. Ranger commander's neck, and actually doing it. Another example would be the villain starting arc with the 'contest'. That, for me, is the most jarring, character wise.
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Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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As for the Miller's hubris, there was a recent video posted here that I cannot find - otherwise I'd have linked it - but my take on that was exactly what I stated here and I recall there were several other posters with that view.
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Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The feedback I saw off this was something along the lines of "Oh, he has armour, does he? My Rad/Rad Defender has armour. Can he be tough, too?"
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Your selective reading puzzles me. If you read the top of this thread, the rock thread, and several others you'd be more than aware that I've suggested many and varied options for change, so calling me on unconstructive feedback is simply silly.
As for the Miller's hubris, there was a recent video posted here that I cannot find - otherwise I'd have linked it - but my take on that was exactly what I stated here and I recall there were several other posters with that view. |
With the Well, I have a theory that I'm going with. What we speak with isn't the Well, but something that has infected the Well however long ago. This is what's talking to us, and what speaks through the Incarnates. In the Ross arcs, we get images of some thing falling from the sky and defeating Merulina. The arc implies that that entity is the Well, but if all Wells are attached to species, than our Well should have been on Earth or connected to it. I think that the Battalion sent a scout, we don't know how long they've been collecting energy sources like the Well, so they could be near timeless themselves.
I think that the Battalion has slowly infected the Well over time and is now posing as the Well to those seeking power. It encourages you to just dunk your head in and get power, but then it can control you. So the strongest and best of us will be snatching up power, but risking the control of the Well. So when the Battalion shows up, the strongest among us are now liabilities, possible sleeper agents. The reason Cole was chosen as its champion was to encourage the war between dimensions, and force even more to HAVE to turn to the Well and gain power as quickly as possible. In the coming Battalion battles, those of us that took the slower paths will have to find a way to purge the Well of its invader, and return it to a pure source of power.
Although I don't mind the Well having a mind of its own, but I'd like it to be more of a lively inanimate, something we can communicate with, but not necessarily just talk to. Like how Sam describe it in his story.
This is what pisses me off about Pandora's Box, the Origin of Powers and the Well of the Furies - they represent an enforced communal origin for no narrative benefit, with its only reason to exist being that it's somewhat more convenient to write if you have fewer variables to worry about. And it just hurts the game's overall story.
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What we speak with isn't the Well, but something that has infected the Well however long ago. This is what's talking to us, and what speaks through the Incarnates.
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I expect that'll be part of Issue 30: "Come Back, The Writers Are Out Of Rehab Now! We're So Sorry!"
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With the Well, I have a theory that I'm going with. What we speak with isn't the Well, but something that has infected the Well however long ago. This is what's talking to us, and what speaks through the Incarnates. In the Ross arcs, we get images of some thing falling from the sky and defeating Merulina. The arc implies that that entity is the Well, but if all Wells are attached to species, than our Well should have been on Earth or connected to it. I think that the Battalion sent a scout, we don't know how long they've been collecting energy sources like the Well, so they could be near timeless themselves.
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It's one of those moods that affects authors every now and then - to have one over-arching thing that everything they previously did fits into, thus everything makes 'sense'. I almost never see this work well when it's introduced after the fact, in a "here's what was actually going on" kind of way. Particularly when you retcon things that clearly weren't part of the mythos into being part of it.
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I mean, unless where they're going with this is that the Omega slot is us transcending the Well, destroying it and scattering its power to all of humanity so that never again will entities like the Battalion be able to hold the threat of absolute dominion over our heads, and never again will people like Cole be randomly gifted with penultimate power by a lunatic puddle. That's the third option any true hero (well, or villain, once you remember that you should never attempt to eat a power source larger than your head) would take. The third option. Not rejecting power, or dancing for the Demiurge's amusement, but punching it in its fat metaphorical face.
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I expect that'll be part of Issue 30: "Come Back, The Writers Are Out Of Rehab Now! We're So Sorry!"
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Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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"Mender Silos" is an anagram for Something Else |
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Yeah... Been there, done that, and the results are... Not pretty. A while ago I was determined to paint nearly all of my heroes as being part of the same broader organisation for... No real reason whatsoever, and for a while it looked like it was working. Then I gained a bit of perspective and I realised the kind of mental gymnastic required to force every concept through the same hole, as it were. In the years since, I've been slowly freeing my older characters from this bond by simply taking out unnecessary mention of this organisation from their backstories, and this has been incredibly liberating. All of a sudden, these characters are free to have much more believable relationships which are not driven by the need to put character A in situation B at time C because the plot said so.
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The real irony to much of City of Heroes' storytelling is that the writers seem aware that they need to pander to our egos and let us win by punching out Cthulu, and they do this on a very superficial level. For instance, when you run the Maria Jenkins arc, every NPC you team with will tell you "This is YOUR story. I'm just here to help. I promise I will not steal your glory. This is not my fight. I will not overshadow you. You are awesome, and probably more awesome than me. This is your story. Now please stop complaining about it!" to the point where it actually makes me feel bad to read it, like we raised such a stink that the writers were left shellshocked and scrambling to praise us on pain of death.
But that's still just superficial pandering, with the broad strokes stories still paining our characters are the minuscule underlings caught in a big fish game run by the signature NPCs. They are still the movers and shakers, theirs are the high adventures and the moments of glory. We're just a face in the crowd, praised out of one side of the narrative's mouth and sullied out the other. There seems to be this profound disconnect between storyline presentation and storyline intent. The writers seem to genuinely want to put us over strong and make us appear big and powerful, yet they also seem to genuinely fail to comprehend that their basic story structure is simply not conducive to that. |
But I think the most funny instance I saw recently was in the Cape Mission in Hero 1's memorial. I entered the room with the capsule, and the Rikti Scout who has stolen the letter looked at this and exclaimed "Human: Too late!" Human... Really? Really... You look at THIS and you get the urge to call it human? Dude, that thing's more alien than you are... And YOU are a human, too!
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It's one of those moods that affects authors every now and then - to have one over-arching thing that everything they previously did fits into, thus everything makes 'sense'. I almost never see this work well when it's introduced after the fact, in a "here's what was actually going on" kind of way. Particularly when you retcon things that clearly weren't part of the mythos into being part of it.
I mean, there's a reason why retcons elicit such a reaction from fans. I would venture to say that this kind of thing is never, ever a good idea. I venture this opinion based on the human ability to recognize patterns in everyone who has ever tried this in the past. I mean, unless where they're going with this is that the Omega slot is us transcending the Well, destroying it and scattering its power to all of humanity so that never again will entities like the Battalion be able to hold the threat of absolute dominion over our heads, and never again will people like Cole be randomly gifted with penultimate power by a lunatic puddle. That's the third option any true hero (well, or villain, once you remember that you should never attempt to eat a power source larger than your head) would take. The third option. Not rejecting power, or dancing for the Demiurge's amusement, but punching it in its fat metaphorical face. I expect that'll be part of Issue 30: "Come Back, The Writers Are Out Of Rehab Now! We're So Sorry!" |
The Menders and the Letter Writer appear to take differing points of view. How does one resolve that? A LOT of emphasis is laid by many folks on the fact that "Mender Silos" is an anagram for Something Else--- but is that really a be-all-and-end-all clue? For crying out loud, Statesman is an anagram for "Satan Stem!"
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Moreover, this is one of the benefits of having a large consistent persistent world - you can imply that certain results are all derived from the same common cause as a mere allusion without having to say it, and thus let your players draw their own conclusions. There are, for instance, rumours that Mayor Spanky made a deal with the devil and that brought much of Paragon City's success, but I haven't seen this specifically confirmed everywhere. That never really comes up, but if it did... Who's to say it wasn't the Circle of Thorns that he made a pact with? Or maybe the Banished Pantheon? Or maybe neither, maybe the Insert Name of Vengeance were involved. It's loose enough to be subject to interpretation and at the same time... It really doesn't matter, so it realistically COULD be any of the above.
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The real irony to much of City of Heroes' storytelling is that the writers seem aware that they need to pander to our egos and let us win by punching out Cthulu, and they do this on a very superficial level. For instance, when you run the Maria Jenkins arc, every NPC you team with will tell you "This is YOUR story. I'm just here to help. I promise I will not steal your glory. This is not my fight. I will not overshadow you. You are awesome, and probably more awesome than me. This is your story. Now please stop complaining about it!" to the point where it actually makes me feel bad to read it, like we raised such a stink that the writers were left shellshocked and scrambling to praise us on pain of death. |
A LOT of emphasis is laid by many folks on the fact that "Mender Silos" is an anagram for Something Else--- but is that really a be-all-and-end-all clue? For crying out loud, Statesman is an anagram for "Satan Stem!"
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The letter writer shouldn't be trusted with the fate of the world either. That's all I'm going to say to avoid spoilers. |
It does illustrate the conundrum... who is telling the truth, if anyone, and how can you tell... without it being obvious because it is now Too Late?
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Something that I just cannot seem to understand is why...WHY...do people get so caught up in "the well this" and "the well that".
The only interaction anyone EVER has with the Well is in Mender Ramiel's story arc and in conversation with Prometheus. There are only 2 components in the ENTIRE Incarnate system that involve the Well (the Notice and the Favor). To say that this system and all the PCs involved in it are tied to the Well is just asinine. The only way your character is tied EXCLUSIVELY to the Well is by listening to Mender Ramiel and his ilk. You can easily accomplish meaningful progression along the Incarnate path without involving yourself with Ramiel, the Well, or Big Blue.
If you feel like your characters are somehow chained to Eva's "puddle of annoyance", then don't run Ramiel's arc. And for God's sake, don't listen to the Big Blue guy standing in a citadel of manipulators and liars.
Edit: Yes, I know there is a third component that is called "Drop of the Well", but according to its text, it's more of condensed, raw power.
If you feel like your characters are somehow chained to Eva's "puddle of annoyance", then don't run Ramiel's arc. And for God's sake, don't listen to the Big Blue guy standing in a citadel of manipulators and liars. |
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Well to be fair, calling a Rikti human is kinda like calling a human a neanderthal. They consider themselves more evolved.
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The letter writer shouldn't be trusted with the fate of the world either. That's all I'm going to say to avoid spoilers.
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The difference is that whoever wrote Spanky's story either knew what his deal was, or intended it to be deliberately vague. The common cause has to be decided up front, even if it's not revealed to the audience. You can add in unforeseen results later, but you can't do it the other way around; that is, you can't just show the results, and come up with a common cause later.
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I think the real problem is that they frankly suck at writing epic. We tell them we want to feel powerful, they bring NPCs down to our level, so rather than making us look powerful it makes the NPC look weak. We want to punch out Cthulhu, but they don't have the resources to let us actually do it, so Cthulhu puts on a human suit and we get to punch him out in the mission text.
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All I can think of is that they may not have tried to write a crossover (with another writer) before. You learn a lot from that kind of thing when you both bring your own characters and preconceptions with you, or, at least, when you have a Big Idea Which Will Be Totally Awesome You Guys Seriously. Specifically, you learn that Internet collaboration is the best, since this reduces the instances of writers stabbing each other.
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Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The only interaction anyone EVER has with the Well is in Mender Ramiel's story arc and in conversation with Prometheus. There are only 2 components in the ENTIRE Incarnate system that involve the Well (the Notice and the Favor). To say that this system and all the PCs involved in it are tied to the Well is just asinine. The only way your character is tied EXCLUSIVELY to the Well is by listening to Mender Ramiel and his ilk. You can easily accomplish meaningful progression along the Incarnate path without involving yourself with Ramiel, the Well, or Big Blue.
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Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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All of Praetoria is also linked with the Well, and how we make Incarnate progress is through Praetoria, at least at this point. Tyrant is the Well's champion and his iTrial allies have been boosted by his power to be god mode sues. I suppose you could make Incarnate progress by taking down Malta and Council and so on, but that's really not the Incarnate STORYLINE.
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