City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

So, we can't go from Hero to Villain in one day...

Aggelakis

By Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2012-01-13 07:19 in CoH and CoV General Discussions

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake View Post
you know, dont want to come across as attacking you, but its kind of a thing with any thread market related, you seem to always have a problem with it
Please feel free to PM me if you'd like to discuss this general issue. I try to stick to specifics in these discussions (and I don't believe I post in every market-related thread). Cheers,

 

Posted

Anyone who would find this option immersion breaking or game spoiling would already have had that issue with other market and in game alternatives to plot driven mechanics. This does seem like a complete non issue.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman View Post
Care to wager that you'll be among the 1% of players who take the time to come up with some kind of rational for their characters' insta-switches (even if it's just a Nemesis plot)?
So are you really complaining that they're catering to the other 99%? That seems sensible to me. Or do you just object to them actually monetizing it?

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman View Post
Yet there's already a fully working containment valve on alignment switching with the current tip mission model.
Do you really believe this? How much back-and-forth movement do you think there is? I think most characters moved in one direction and never went back. New characters are created now with the alignment of choice, because there is no barrier to what AT starts on what side.

Some heroes go redside then back to get Patron Pools. That's still a minority, since not all ATs get Patron Pools worth the trouble of doing that for.

The only people I know of who migrate the same character back and forth more than once are hard-core badgers and some role players. I'm a borderline hard-core badger, and I only ever move one character back and forth more than once.

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

To be honest, with some of the horrible things you do as a vigilante to get to villain, it's amazing you can ever go back to hero at all.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.

 

Posted

I think TG is being disingenuous. His argument of "immersion-breaking" doesn't even begin to hold up to scrutiny, which makes me feel he probably dislikes this for a completely different, much less rational reason. Coming up with plotlines wherein an instant change makes far more sense than a drawn-out rise or fall is trivial. Here's a few just off the top of my head:

-Surprise! I was secretly a Villain all along!
-I'm being mind controlled by an evil Circle of Thorns ritual!
-I was only a Villain because Arachnos had my family hostage!
-I was killed and brought back as an inherently evil undead Villain!
-But then a gypsy curse restored my old personality!
-But then I went Villain again after having sex with my girlfriend!
-But then I went back to normal and got my own spin-off show!
-I was completely reprogrammed by a Vigilante to switch from Villain to Hero!

And so on and so forth.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RuthlessSamael View Post
I think TG is being disingenuous. His argument of "immersion-breaking" doesn't even begin to hold up to scrutiny, which makes me feel he probably dislikes this for a completely different, much less rational reason.
When I talk about immersion, I'm going by my own experience with the tip missions and alignment changes and what I've seen on the boards (incidentally, I don't think there's much yo-yo'ing, which suggests the current system works fine). Perhaps you consider that subjective, but calling it disingenuous and implying ulterior motives is just being provocative.

Quote:
Coming up with plotlines wherein an instant change makes far more sense than a drawn-out rise or fall is trivial.
Trivial in perhaps more than one sense. Such switches have generally been received as unsatisfying by comics readers.

That said, I'm trying to stop thread-sitting here, so feel free to continue this discussion without me.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman View Post
In turn, please keep in mind that [roleplaying] is very important to a portion of the community, the one that's the vanguard of immersion in this game. Immersion is vital to an MMORPG since without it, it's ultimately indistinguishable from Prattlefield and Modern Gorefare.
Certainly, but how is this a problem to those players? If you feel this feature is incompatable with your rolepalying and sense of immersion, don't use it. It's as simple as that. What do you care what other players do, and how does that affect your personal roleplaying and immersion?

You can count me as part of that portion of the community who cares about roleplaying and immersion. Which is why I won't be buying any alignment change tokens for insta-switchinig and will instead continue enjoying the storylines of the tip missions. But I couldn't care less what other people are doing. Some of them only care about min-maxing their characters and killing stuff. More power to them.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman View Post
When I talk about immersion, I'm going by my own experience with the tip missions and alignment changes and what I've seen on the boards (incidentally, I don't think there's much yo-yo'ing, which suggests the current system works fine). Perhaps you consider that subjective, but calling it disingenuous and implying ulterior motives is just being provocative.
Immersion is somewhat subjective. It depends so much on your willing suspension of disbelief vs. the limitations of the medium.

Which brings me to...

Quote:
Trivial in perhaps more than one sense. Such switches have generally been received as unsatisfying by comics readers.
You should not have to be reminded that this isn't a comic book. It's a video game. Those are both very different things. This game may have been inspired by comic books, bit it's not a comic book. How many video games based on comic books actually manage to mimic an entirely different type of medium with any accuracy? Not very many, from what I can remember. And those were all single player games. An MMO is going to have a lot more difficulty with that sort of thing.

Quote:
That said, I'm trying to stop thread-sitting here, so feel free to continue this discussion without me.
Probably just as well that you do. I'd have told you what everyone else did, if I'd discovered this thread earlier. I will always argue against anyone who clamors for less choice and diversity.

 

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Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
Do you really believe this? How much back-and-forth movement do you think there is? I think most characters moved in one direction and never went back. New characters are created now with the alignment of choice, because there is no barrier to what AT starts on what side.

Some heroes go redside then back to get Patron Pools. That's still a minority, since not all ATs get Patron Pools worth the trouble of doing that for.

The only people I know of who migrate the same character back and forth more than once are hard-core badgers and some role players. I'm a borderline hard-core badger, and I only ever move one character back and forth more than once.
Just as a personal anecdote, I'm bringing my Titan Weapons Brute up redside. I'm tricking the character out, so I wanted all the stat-enhancing Accolades, and three of them are much, much easier to get redside. The one exception is the Atlas Medallion, which is obtainable very early on as a Hero, while Marshal requires completing the LRSF. So once I hit the mid-20s, I went blueside, farmed up the Atlas Medallion, and returned to red to complete the other Accolades. (All I have left at this point are the last two exploration badges for Invader.)

It was worth it, I suppose, as I got several levels out of the tip missions, plus Come Full Circle which, as you say, not many people have, but quite frankly I would rather have bought two alignment change tokens and be done with it. Titan Weapons earns XP at a ridiculous rate, and I've had to be careful with the missions I pursue so that I don't outlevel any mayhems. I like the tip missions, and the Rogue and Vigilante missions are some of the most interesting I've ever seen in game (and I doubt many people see the 20-30 and 30-40 tips), but given that I'm pursuing specific objectives those missions were little more than chaff that only indirectly contributed to my objectives.

(If we must be immersive about it, then my Brute snuck aboard a tanker to Talos, kidnapped the fortune teller in Perez, ran around mocking heroes while cloaked under Energy Aura, and went to Striga to beat down on Council goons before sneaking back to the Rogue Isles. )

De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.

 

Posted

True, I did forget about folks who switch sides for Accolades. It's not something I do - I actually find it easier/comfortable to get the accolades the old fashioned due to a decent support network in game, having two accounts, etc.

But importantly, I did include the key phrase "more than once". I don't imagine you'll be going back villain side any time soon.

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman View Post
Yet there's already a fully working containment valve on alignment switching with the current tip mission model. To assert the idea behind monetizing alignment switches at this stage isn't profit, plain and simple, makes Paragon Studios sound like a 501(c) organization.
Wow, who cares? This is just one more thread where people are either objecting that something is up for sale or saying that it costs too much. If YOU have an issue with it, don't buy it. It's that simple. But don't try to take choices away from everyone else.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman View Post
(Incidentally, I beg anyone's pardon if my persistence in this thread comes off in any way as personalized. Obviously I feel strongly about this issue,
Yeah..... I think I would have used the word "fixated".


Quote:
Originally Posted by LISAR View Post
This does seem like a complete non issue.
Doesn't it, though?


Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
But importantly, I did include the key phrase "more than once". I don't imagine you'll be going back villain side any time soon.
My badger has gone all the way around the alignments three times so far. I would agree, though, that's hardly typical. I don't have any other toons that gone more than two 'steps' in any direction.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
True, I did forget about folks who switch sides for Accolades. It's not something I do - I actually find it easier/comfortable to get the accolades the old fashioned due to a decent support network in game, having two accounts, etc.

But importantly, I did include the key phrase "more than once". I don't imagine you'll be going back villain side any time soon.
Going back Hero? (Started Villain, switched to Hero, back to Villain now.) I probably will eventually, just because that's where all the non-cooperative action is, but I hope that the change tokens are available by the time I'm ready to switch.

De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMystic View Post
do it through time and you have 4 days for a full switch
4 days WTF. Last time I did it, I switched from full Hero to full Villain in less than 24 hours.

It helps to keep spare Morality Missions on-hand for just such an occasion.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect View Post
4 days WTF. Last time I did it, I switched from full Hero to full Villain in less than 24 hours.

It helps to keep spare Morality Missions on-hand for just such an occasion.
Getting those Morality missions is part of the process. And since it perforce takes more than 24 hours to get them, switching sides takes more than 24 hours.

Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

 

Posted

Maybe it will help red side out somewhat. If players can use a token, join a redside tf, then switch back to help out the poor unfortunate souls who chose to stick with it for the long haul. :P

Kinda sad that blueside outnumbers the population of the rogue isles, npc's included.

Kills immersion dead? So I'm guessing you're also one of the people adamantly opposed to male characters obtaining carnie masks? Because that would do it too. Or is this a situation that wildly different.

you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you <3

 

Posted

A lot of people ask for nothing to be offered in the stores you can't also earn in-game. A lot of people, not necessarily the same ones although I will bet there's overlap, complain when the store offers a QoL item that allows you to do things faster than normal.

If we're only going to sell things we can get in the game, and it has to also be as easy or easier to get in-game, that limits what you can sell in the store significantly, or realigns its target audience to be brain damaged players.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
Unless you pay for an Alignment Change token, of course.


...
Wut.

So, seriously now; why is there still an arbitrary time limit on alignment switching by doing tips and such in game?
When you can just BUY the alignment you want (which, coincidentally, completely eradicates Posi's whole "We don't want alignment to be a switch you flick on and off" ramble from when it was first introduced...) it seems somewhat hypocritical to still limit the in-game method so unfairly. Bit of a bum move there.
You have this bass-ackwards.

What they need to eliminate is the buying option... not the timer.


 

Posted

Heck, I'm still holding out for an auto-50 level token (and I'm only half-joking). For $20, we'll be able to level-bump to 50 one character, so we can begin to endlessly replay all the end-game content the devs and players can't make/get enough of - right out of the box!

This will also be about "time vs. convenience" as well: you can level up a toon yourself, but if you'd rather pay not to...

I'd not buy one (end-game content can go swallow rotten eggs, far as I care), but I'm sure plenty of people would buy them and it would be a quick and easy income stream.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
A lot of people ask for nothing to be offered in the stores you can't also earn in-game. A lot of people, not necessarily the same ones although I will bet there's overlap, complain when the store offers a QoL item that allows you to do things faster than normal.

If we're only going to sell things we can get in the game, and it has to also be as easy or easier to get in-game, that limits what you can sell in the store significantly, or realigns its target audience to be brain damaged players.
Doing twenty-two missions in a row without the current irritating time limits would still be far slower than switching instantly with a token.

Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman View Post
So now that the novelty of alignment change has worn off for some people, it's safe for the devs to turn it into for-profit sideline? The missions written around tips and alignment change are some of the best new content Paragon's added recently. Who will care now about their character's progress between the Cities of Heroes and Villains if it's reduced to a service charge?
I can assure you that I'll care. I'm totally not willing to pay for something that I can earn in-game for free. That simple. And I'm far from alone in that. Why should I give a flying rat's @#$ how others do it?



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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzhi View Post
Doing twenty-two missions in a row without the current irritating time limits would still be far slower than switching instantly with a token.
How is that relevant? You seem to be saying that if the store offers it instantly, that justifies eliminating the time gate in-game. But why is that relevant? If the store purchase is designed to buy your way past the time gate, saying that the existence of the store item invalidates the reason for having a time gate is illogical.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
How is that relevant? You seem to be saying that if the store offers it instantly, that justifies eliminating the time gate in-game. But why is that relevant? If the store purchase is designed to buy your way past the time gate, saying that the existence of the store item invalidates the reason for having a time gate is illogical.
The store item invalidates the reasoning behind the time gate. And getting rid of the time gate doesn't invalidate the existence of the store item.

Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzhi View Post
The store item invalidates the reasoning behind the time gate.
It does not. If you believe the reason behind the time gate is that it should be impossible to switch sides any faster, that's false.

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In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzhi View Post
The store item invalidates the reasoning behind the time gate.
Not really. As others have said, you either pay for it with time or pay for it with money. It's not that difficult a concept to grasp. I don't see you whining about being able to buy cape and aura unlocks....



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