So, we can't go from Hero to Villain in one day...
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2012-01-13 07:19 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
The issue is it's not how some believe the game should be played...I don't normally follow people's trends so I don't know who has been antifreedom the whole time.
I'm probably going to come off as selfish here, but since I never found a reason to switch alignments, aside from playing ATs on the "opposite" faction, which no longer requires switching, I honestly won't even notice the service. Paying for it, doing it via missions... It's something I'm not going to do regardless.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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In turn, please keep in mind that it is very important to a portion of the community, the one that's the vanguard of immersion in this game. Immersion is vital to an MMORPG since without it, it's ultimately indistinguishable from Prattlefield and Modern Gorefare.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Keep in mind that roleplaying IS NOT AT ALL important for most people in this community.
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Similarly, although I myself am not much of a PVPer, I'm extremely disappointed in the devs' neglect of that aspect of the game. It may not mean much to me personally, but it matters a great deal to a significant portion of the player community. That's the segment that takes the lead in the CoH vs. CoV aspect of the game, which, incidentally, this convenience service also implicitly undercuts.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
And newsflash: Convenience over immersion has ALWAYS been a part of this community. I really can't believe you can think that it hasn't with things like the AE debacle, farming in PI, speed runs pre and post the Katie Hannon nerf, folks asking for ways to circumvent random tf rewards which lead to merits, etc, etc. Hell, folks who are 50 have shown they prefer the faster BAF/LAM over the more story immerse next level trials. I . . . don't get your statement at all based on the history of this game/community.
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It's not like this one service is worth getting exercised over by itself, much less rage-quitting. Still, there have been so many misfires, blunders, and wrong turns with CoH Freedom since its announcement that I suspect I'll be in need of a break soon. Or at least more coffee this morning.
EDIT: Needs moar doom:
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As to the bolded, I never saw this as a COH vs COV aspect. Especially since it's a been a while since they simply gave you COV for getting COH. Also, many players play both sides on the same account. This convenience doesn't undercut anything as that divide has stopped being important for ages. Especially now that you can start the game on EITHER SIDE with ANY AT.|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
In turn, please keep in mind that it is very important to a portion of the community, the one that's the vanguard of immersion in this game. Immersion is vital to an MMORPG since without it, it's ultimately indistinguishable from Prattlefield and Modern Gorefare.
Similarly, although I myself am not much of a PVPer, I'm extremely disappointed in the devs' neglect of that aspect of the game. It may not mean much to me personally, but it matters a great deal to a significant portion of the player community. That's the segment that takes the lead in the CoH vs. CoV aspect of the game, which, incidentally, this convenience service also implicitly undercuts. Fortunately, you don't have to believe that. I quit for some time after the AE debacle, and after coming back around the time Going Rogue was introduced, my game time dropped off considerably once the iTrials were introduced. It's not like this one service is worth getting exercised over by itself, much less rage-quitting. Still, there have been so many misfires, blunders, and wrong turns with CoH Freedom since its announcement that I suspect I'll be in need of a break soon. Or at least more coffee this morning. |
I think at this point I'll have to go with YMMV as I think you (and others like you) take the whole coh vs cov thing waaay too seriously.
I'll end by saying yeah I think the game has gotten waaaay better since COH freedom. Convenience and more options greater than annoying roadblocks based on roleplay/immersion.
YMMV.
EDIT: As that came off a bit too harsh, I'll just say I'm really not trying to annoy you. Anyone who's paid attention to my post over the last few years will know I'm always for MORE options for players, even when it cuts into roleplay, because this primarily is a game. The less annoying unnecessary time sinks we have the better, as far as I'm concerned. In this case it ALSO aligns with my ideal that I think since COH Freedom, the more the devs can make money the better. (Even if I don't always agree with how they attempt to make it---see my commentary on super packs---they should still be allowed to try.)
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You talk of "immersion" being important for MMOs and in general I can agree with that.|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
In turn, please keep in mind that it is very important to a portion of the community, the one that's the vanguard of immersion in this game. Immersion is vital to an MMORPG since without it, it's ultimately indistinguishable from Prattlefield and Modern Gorefare.
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But based just on my "science girl turns temporarily evil" scenario I mentioned earlier I could easily argue that a system of immersion that forces a specific path or method on its players can be almost as bad as having no immersion accounted for at all. I'm not saying that I dislike the tip-based alignment system we have. But I will say that the systematic method it imposes doesn't fit my definition of the way I'd want to roleplay my alignment switches in all cases.
This is why I favor the choice we will now have. If it makes sense to you to work though the hardwired tip missions the Devs have provided to accomplish alignment changes then by all means use them. But because that scheme doesn't fit all of my own ideas about the way individual characters might approach this I'm glad I now will have a choice in the matter.
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I like this idea, and I may actually take advantage of it. There are a couple of badge titles that are perfect for a couple of my characters. Being able to get those titles without going through the whole switching rigamarole--which they wouldn't do ICly anyway--would make them worth getting, IMO. Seeing them with 'correct' titles would make me enjoy them more, leading to me playing them more, which means I'd be playing the game more than I do now.
I've never been interested in creating in-character reasons for game mechanics. I am a roleplayer, and immersion is important to me, but I suppose one person's immersive feature is another person's intrusive mechanic. My characters have no idea what 'enhancements' are. My one character with an Incarnate whatsis slotted is not imbued with godly powers; she just continues to hone her abilities and simply fights better. If the Shrike visits the Isles so she can wear 'Pilot' under her name, it won't become part of her personal story.
(I also wouldn't have any problems with the aforementioned Incarnate token, but I suppose that's a whole different can of worms.)
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Really?|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
So now that the novelty of alignment change has worn off for some people, it's safe for the devs to turn it into for-profit sideline? The missions written around tips and alignment change are some of the best new content Paragon's added recently. Who will care now about their character's progress between the Cities of Heroes and Villains if it's reduced to a service charge?
That's exactly the kind of mercenary attitude towards a gaming world that kills immersion dead. |
Rikti invade and Positron just stands there watching us fight them,
There are infinite villains of all types wandering the streets
But it is the ability to go to an island and act like a villain that is what breaks your immersion?
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DOOOOOOOM!|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Needs moar doom:
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YMMV holds true on an individual basis, but this issue also affects the entire highway.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I think at this point I'll have to go with YMMV as I think you (and others like you) take the whole coh vs cov thing waaay too seriously.
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As for taking this too seriously, it's precisely because fun is so fragile. Serious things in life can be borne with stoicism much more easily.
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| Also, many players play both sides on the same account. |
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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
Rikti invade and Positron just stands there watching us fight them,
There are infinite villains of all types wandering the streets But it is the ability to go to an island and act like a villain that is what breaks your immersion? |
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Originally Posted by Lothic
But based just on my "science girl turns temporarily evil" scenario I mentioned earlier I could easily argue that a system of immersion that forces a specific path or method on its players can be almost as bad as having no immersion accounted for at all.
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The Alignment Change Token is CoX's for-profit equivalent of "a wizard did it".
I'm happy that they are offering this. There are both gameplay and RP reasons for why people might want to instantly switch alignments.
I don't think it will have any negative impact on the game, as alignment switching through tips is often a personal process anyway, something other players aren't going to witness. I'm often completely unaware of the alignment of other players anyway, unless they are roleplaying.
As for it being hypocritical, I agree with Lothic. There are two ways to change alignments, and both have limiters on them to prevent it from being done on a whim.
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I'd argue that what's wrong with the comic industry today is that there are TOO FREAKING many multi-arc issues.|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
YMMV holds true on an individual basis, but this issue also affects the entire highway.
As for taking this too seriously, it's precisely because fun is so fragile. Serious things in life can be borne with stoicism much more easily. As an aside, this undercuts CoH/V as badly as any "devs hate redside" complaint. In another MMORPG, which I went back to playing recently, players were initially limited to deciding on one faction or another for their characters on each server. At some point, the powers that be decided to reverse this policy, which detrimentally affected not only the PVP community (hello, spies!) but also the RP one. CoX never had a chance to see the difference that policy would have made. You've noticed, then, that immersion is incredibly delicate in this game. Nothing undermines the already tenuous suspension of disbelief faster than the cynicism naked profiteering provokes. Picture the scene at COXCON's comics panel in an alternate universe when random fanperson asks Lothic why Science Girl suddenly turned evil between issue 101 and 102. A sudden super-science accident is a valid explanation in a comicbook universe, of course. A multi-issue arc that revolves on character development over the course of adventures is, most comics fans agree, a more satisfying narrative. The Alignment Change Token is CoX's for-profit equivalent of "a wizard did it". |
And how does something that you don't have to buy and there is no indication that another team mate or player who used it did so, break immersion?
One can just pretend that it's not there just like other things.
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Exactly! I'm not getting the argument here but I'm trying to. If you are doing tips with a team and get your morality mission, if others come along with you THEY CANNOT switch sides if they have not done their 10. |
Originally Posted by Liquid
I'm happy that they are offering this. There are both gameplay and RP reasons for why people might want to instantly switch alignments.
I don't think it will have any negative impact on the game, as alignment switching through tips is often a personal process anyway, something other players aren't going to witness. |
There is nothing as far as I can see in the alignment system that is a community process.
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Only if it provokes such. I think most of us have come to realize that paragon has to pay their employees something and that freedom existed in the first place as a way to get additional money into the game so that they can get us more content(which has happened thus far, lot more costume, powersets and new zones than in the past) so monetizing a process that I can still do at no cost whatsoever, not even an issue. that is the kind of thing that im glad they monetized, rather than the gamble packs. I would argue instead that the only way this "naked profiteering" would engender cynicism is if one was already cynical about freedom and merely looking at excuses to throw another fit.
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
You've noticed, then, that immersion is incredibly delicate in this game. Nothing undermines the already tenuous suspension of disbelief faster than the cynicism naked profiteering provokes. . |
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The difference becomes apparent as soon as they talk about their characters. Maybe this is like jazz ("If you have to ask, you'll never know."). It comes back to the OP's complaint of how this "completely eradicates Posi's whole 'We don't want alignment to be a switch you flick on and off' ramble from when it was first introduced". Well, it is now.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
And how does something that you don't have to buy and there is no indication that another team mate or player who used it did so, break immersion?
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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
that is the kind of thing that im glad they monetized, rather than the gamble packs.
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Anyroads, DOOM!
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You've randomly assumed in my case that "Science Girl suddenly turning evil between issue 101 and 102" is an isolated incident in that character's development. Far from it. Just so happens that I've been roleplying that character for years and I could probably spend an entire weekend at a convention telling that fanperson of yours her entire story and how her alignment shifts relate to it. |
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Picture the scene at COXCON's comics panel in an alternate universe when random fanperson asks Lothic why Science Girl suddenly turned evil between issue 101 and 102. A sudden super-science accident is a valid explanation in a comicbook universe, of course. A multi-issue arc that revolves on character development over the course of adventures is, most comics fans agree, a more satisfying narrative.
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Again if you want to explain an alignment switch as a long, drawn out multi-issue arc then have fun with that. Sometimes people would rather roleplay other aspects of their character without having the game force them to stretch out one portion of that with bottlenecked content that you otherwise can't avoid.
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
You've noticed, then, that immersion is incredibly delicate in this game. Nothing undermines the already tenuous suspension of disbelief faster than the cynicism naked profiteering provokes.
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
The Alignment Change Token is CoX's for-profit equivalent of "a wizard did it".
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
The difference becomes apparent as soon as they talk about their characters. Maybe this is like jazz ("If you have to ask, you'll never know."). It comes back to the OP's complaint of how this "completely eradicates Posi's whole 'We don't want alignment to be a switch you flick on and off' ramble from when it was first introduced". Well, it is now.
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Sure there's no denying that Paragon Studios will probably make a few dollars with this new token, but making it cost a certain amount of real world money is -not- the primary reason for its cost. Connecting it to real world money enables it to serve its actual purpose as a control mechanism. As I explained it's pretty much the same reason why MMOs charge money for server transfers - they do it to encourage people not overuse the feature to an abusive degree.
Paragon Studios has no delusions that they'll actually make a significant profit from these things. But even if they actually -do- make a profit then it'll only be good for the entire game in general. Still seems like a win-win to me.
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I being a big lore based RPer on virtue with most characters vig,or rogue for concept purposes but also someone who understands limited play time due to rl constraints and disposable income can recognize both sides of this debate fairly clearly.
On the one hand non rp vets who are sick of taking time to do the change wanted a fast option, given one that requires RL cash, it offends for a variety of reasons. Mostly as a cash grab, and want equally fast in game play options. Which ofcourse would undermine the whole reason to have to pay for an insta change in the first place.
On the other is the RPers who see it as well a cash grab, but are offended because they feel it by allowing that fast out of game play option to swap, destroys and even belittles thier own system. effectively putting profit before game play quality for players.
My Suggestion:
To keep the current in game system, force those who want it quick and easy to pay for it, and to be sure to use some of that funding to expand our beloved alignment story content for RPers. More arcs for each level range, maybe one for each origin. Dont know about you but Id like to see our origins mean something again and I think alignment arcs are a great place to start.
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I can safely say if CoH had gone with that policy, that would have been the most incredibly irritating thing ever.
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
As an aside, this undercuts CoH/V as badly as any "devs hate redside" complaint. In another MMORPG, which I went back to playing recently, players were initially limited to deciding on one faction or another for their characters on each server. At some point, the powers that be decided to reverse this policy, which detrimentally affected not only the PVP community (hello, spies!) but also the RP one. CoX never had a chance to see the difference that policy would have made.
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Yet there's already a fully working containment valve on alignment switching with the current tip mission model. To assert the idea behind monetizing alignment switches at this stage isn't profit, plain and simple, makes Paragon Studios sound like a 501(c) organization.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
Sure there's no denying that Paragon Studios will probably make a few dollars with this new token, but making it cost a certain amount of real world money is -not- the primary reason for its cost. Connecting it to real world money enables it to serve its actual purpose as a control mechanism. As I explained it's pretty much the same reason why MMOs charge money for server transfers - they do it to encourage people not overuse the feature to an abusive degree.
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I'm just hoping I can use my mindrays to convince them to use the profits to write more tip missions somehow. It makes sense. I think it does.|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Yet there's already a fully working containment valve on alignment switching with the current tip mission model. To assert the idea behind monetizing alignment switches at this stage isn't profit, plain and simple, makes Paragon Studios sound like a 501(c) organization.
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I hope it does.
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(Incidentally, I beg anyone's pardon if my persistence in this thread comes off in any way as personalized. Obviously I feel strongly about this issue, but I don't wish to suck all the oxygen out of this discussion. It can happily proceed without my input for a little while.)
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I believe it's a virtual certainty that the more money this game makes the more content they will be able to provide in general. But if you wanted to drill down to a specific case then I don't think it'd be a huge stretch to think that the money Paragon Studios gains from the Alignment Change tokens would be able to ultimately create more tip/morality missions.
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Originally Posted by Demetrios Vasilikos
To keep the current in game system, force those who want it quick and easy to pay for it, and to be sure to use some of that funding to expand our beloved alignment story content for RPers. More arcs for each level range, maybe one for each origin. Dont know about you but Id like to see our origins mean something again and I think alignment arcs are a great place to start.
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The Trial rewards are designed that way - the reward rate is balanced around how often we can get them - the alignment merits and the things they can purchase are balanced around the idea of earning 1 every 2 days. If they became easier to earn, then the prices of the stuff they can purchase would have to be increased to reflect it.
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Originally Posted by Lucky666
Kinda like if you keep doing a baf over and over you keep getting emp merits, oh wait....
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Yet with only the ONE path to alignment switching we are constrained to follow that lengthy hardwired process whether we want to or not. The Alignment Change token provides an alternative and a choice that we have been lacking.|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Yet there's already a fully working containment valve on alignment switching with the current tip mission model. To assert the idea behind monetizing alignment switches at this stage isn't profit, plain and simple, makes Paragon Studios sound like a 501(c) organization.
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I already clearly acknowledged that Paragon Studios will make some money from this. But you are almost desperately trying to make it sound like this is such a huge taxation on the playerbase that it'll be automatically unacceptable to everyone which simply isn't the case. If Paragon Studios was actually going to make "so much money" from this then why did they opt to go for the tip-based system first INSTEAD of this profit-mongering scheme back when they first introduced the system?
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you know, dont want to come across as attacking you, but its kind of a thing with any thread market related, you seem to always have a problem with it, It is kind of a question at this point what they are allowed to actually use to raise money at this point that wont have you angry. Its seems like you just dislike the market and anything at all that they try to do, no matter how reasonable, it is always a gross abuse and UNACCEPTABLE, with some cheeky link to an actual abusive business practice.
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
(Incidentally, I beg anyone's pardon if my persistence in this thread comes off in any way as personalized. Obviously I feel strongly about this issue, but I don't wish to suck all the oxygen out of this discussion. It can happily proceed without my input for a little while.)
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Not to mention it's STILL total hypocrisy going by Posi's original statement. I'm FINE with that, but I'm not cool with only the paid option being instant. That's just lame.
If you'd rather save the money, then obviously you have to take the time.
A respec is a bit different than an alignment change, and really, good, it's more money for them...people can complain "I want access to Patron Powers, but dont want to put in the effort needed." and everyone can reply "Buy a token!"
Unless there's a cool down, you can even switch to and back in one day. \o/
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