So, we can't go from Hero to Villain in one day...
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2012-01-13 07:19 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Without the current time gate, you'd still have to do twenty-two missions in a row which is still paying for it with time. As I said before, or did you have trouble grasping that concept?
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Originally Posted by Tyger42
Not really. As others have said, you either pay for it with time or pay for it with money. It's not that difficult a concept to grasp. I don't see you whining about being able to buy cape and aura unlocks....
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Yeah, sorry, misstated that. Your earlier explanation did make it clear.|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
Going back Hero? (Started Villain, switched to Hero, back to Villain now.) I probably will eventually, just because that's where all the non-cooperative action is, but I hope that the change tokens are available by the time I'm ready to switch.
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Most folks I know would simply have stayed a hero, rather than leveling up as a villain. Honestly, if I was going to go for the accolades hero-side, I would have probably done what you did, with one exception. None of my villains have become heroes. Instead they all became Rogues. That's good enough for the vast majority of content. They can even start TFs. Sure, it locks me out of Alignment Merits, but (a) I had heroes that could collect those (and I wasn't going to do it across lots of characters, and (b) Empyrean Merits work out so much better for me I have completely stopped getting Hero Merits.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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There's a difference between a narrative description (how a game mechanic is explained within the context of the in-game logic) and the actual specific design reason for something.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
That was the given reason as I recall it: Switching alignments should take time because it shouldn't be trivial. I'd look it up, but the only dog I have in this race is a desire to continue doing Tip missions - I generally don't care about about alignment progress and I certainly don't care about alignment merits.
The given reason was nonsense when it was given, the in-store item is just an accent mark. I'm sure any other concocted reasons are equally senseless. |
Separate from that, one of the explicit intents of the store is to provide ways to purchase QoL enhancements and that includes reducing the amount of time it takes to do things in-game. All rules involving how much effort it should take within the game to do something aren't applicable to a store specifically intended to allow players to purchase options without having to satisfy those requirements.
It may be senseless to you, but that's not because its actually without reason. The decisions must seem capricious to you if you think there's no reason behind them, but that's because you don't seem to want to accept what those reasons are. That's a problem beyond the ability of the devs to address.
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And there's nothing stopping you from changing alignments via tips if that's how you feel it SHOULD be done. |
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
In turn, please keep in mind that it is very important to a portion of the community, the one that's the vanguard of immersion in this game. Immersion is vital to an MMORPG since without it, it's ultimately indistinguishable from Prattlefield and Modern Gorefare.
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I'm a little confused by something to be honest:
Please explain how someone buying an alignment change token has any impact whatsoever on YOUR immersion into the game.
What others do with their characters' alignment doesn't have any effect on what you do in the game, so why do you care? What, is it a moral objection? Some sense that you are the only one who can say how the game MUST be played?
I don't PL or farm, but I don't stand on a soapbox and declare that it isn't right. I don't think either are good for the game, but, and this is an important point, it is not my place to tell people how they're supposed to play the game.
If it's a roleplaying concern, I can think of half a dozen scenarios off the top of my head in which a hero immediately becomes evil, or a villain becomes good. Mind control, they were drugged, their powers had an unexpected side effect on them, I could go on and on.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
If their gonna sell these cool I just hope they start selling the accolade powers I hate grinding for all those power over and over for every new toon. Just a bunch of grey mob hunting with a few avs/ebs throw in anyway.
Ok, been away all day so I kinda missed this foutaining XD
It seems to have been taken that the point of the OP was 'omg they are selling this wutbbq!!'
It's not. What DOES annoy me is that we still have the stupid, arbitrary limit on tips that means you cannot side-swap from Hero->Villain in one go in one day (or vice versa)
I don't care about A-Merits. Gate them to one a day/every two days as it stands now if that would be 'broken'. But saying its ok to side swap all the way when paying but NOT using the in-game methods? Sorry, but that's wrong. And the 'not wanting it to be a switch' argument is no longer applicable, thanks to the buyable tokens.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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It's time gated OR money gated.
If you want to avoid the time gate, pay to avoid it.
Personally, I can't see myself buying one of them. In my opinion, spending money just because you're too impatient to do it in-game is kinda silly. But, if people want to do it, I suppose it gives the devs more money to develop things I actually care about.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I hope they use some of it on BRB research.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
It's time gated OR money gated.
If you want to avoid the time gate, pay to avoid it. Personally, I can't see myself buying one of them. In my opinion, spending money just because you're too impatient to do it in-game is kinda silly. But, if people want to do it, I suppose it gives the devs more money to develop things I actually care about. |
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Anyone willing to buy the tokens in the first place has no concerns about immersion to begin with. To them it's just metagaming.|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
So now that the novelty of alignment change has worn off for some people, it's safe for the devs to turn it into for-profit sideline? The missions written around tips and alignment change are some of the best new content Paragon's added recently. Who will care now about their character's progress between the Cities of Heroes and Villains if it's reduced to a service charge?
That's exactly the kind of mercenary attitude towards a gaming world that kills immersion dead. |
I just hope they set the price of the tokens high enough to discourage people from buying them like they were penny candy
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As has been mentioned, that was not the argument to begin with. They didn't want it to be a trivial switch, in the sense of wanting to prevent frequent changes back and forth for given characters.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I don't care about A-Merits. Gate them to one a day/every two days as it stands now if that would be 'broken'. But saying its ok to side swap all the way when paying but NOT using the in-game methods? Sorry, but that's wrong. And the 'not wanting it to be a switch' argument is no longer applicable, thanks to the buyable tokens.
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If they turn around and make these tokens like 80 points or something, I'll be with you, because they'll have a non-trivial barrier in game and a trivial one in the store. If they make these the point equivalent of $5 or more, I'm guessing that would be pretty non-trivial on the scale of what most people spend on gaming. People can switch fast with them each time they buy one, but most people will not pay $5 or more to switch repeatedly.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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It doesn't really work as a narrative reason. Doing twenty-two missions in-game could equate to days or maybe weeks of in-game time. That sun moves quickly. Arbitrarily being unable to find crimes through beating up criminals also doesn't really make sense from an in-game point of view. Ergo it's a meta reason the only purpose of which is to explain design reasoning or as a red herring of player pacification.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
There's a difference between a narrative description (how a game mechanic is explained within the context of the in-game logic) and the actual specific design reason for something.
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Assuming it's the latter, what's the supposed real reason? Time-gating the rewards isn't it as that can clearly be done without gating the content. And the phantom exploit reason postulated up-thread doesn't really fly unless side-switching can be done instantly, and even then it'd be kinda iffy. Is there an official reason other than the popular one we were given?
And heck, even if there's some sort of valid reason for not side-switching via Tips in a few hours, I maintain that the Tips should keep rolling in, but doing them should give no Alignment progression until the proper time elapses.
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| Separate from that, one of the explicit intents of the store is to provide ways to purchase QoL enhancements and that includes reducing the amount of time it takes to do things in-game. All rules involving how much effort it should take within the game to do something aren't applicable to a store specifically intended to allow players to purchase options without having to satisfy those requirements. |
And it's not relevant to the flipped complaint, as that isn't about *effort*. Twenty-two missions takes the same amount of effort whether you arbitrarily limit it by time or not. Well, actually, I suppose it could potentially take *less* effort if you stretch it out temporally, as it could allow you to auto-complete an extra time.
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| It may be senseless to you, but that's not because its actually without reason. The decisions must seem capricious to you if you think there's no reason behind them, but that's because you don't seem to want to accept what those reasons are. That's a problem beyond the ability of the devs to address. |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Yes, but not as much time. They've set the "price" to where they want it with the gate. Quick question about the tokens, though: Is there a cooldown timer on them?
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Without the current time gate, you'd still have to do twenty-two missions in a row which is still paying for it with time. As I said before, or did you have trouble grasping that concept?
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Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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Okay, sure, but coming up with a narrative reason is, again, trivial. Like, it takes time for the effects of your crimes/heroic deeds to sink in. Or, so many people attempt fake redemption/corruption to pull a fast one on the other side that no one's really willing to believe it until they see some commitment...Or if there's really weird, unusual circumstances.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
It doesn't really work as a narrative reason.
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Also, I won't bother to quote him, but TG's assertion that rapid switches are always frowned upon by the audience is flat-out wrong. Every single reason I gave is an example of a perfectly valid plotline that could be well-received, or even one that has been well-received. Half of them were a joke about the way Angel/us switches alignment so many times in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, a plot which was really well-received.
i'd like it to change so that if we felt like farming tips and doing missions, we could go from Hero to villain in one go/day, or vice versa.
Keep the merit rewards on a timer though, but don't say 'it'll take you four days unless you cough up cash'.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Time equals money. It always has. If the devs believe it should take a nontrivial amount of time to change alignments, then there is no hypocrisy or inconsistency in permitting an alignment change via a nontrivial amount of money as well.
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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
i'd like it to change so that if we felt like farming tips and doing missions, we could go from Hero to villain in one go/day, or vice versa.
Keep the merit rewards on a timer though, but don't say 'it'll take you four days unless you cough up cash'. |
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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This is a hilarious strawman and you should be ashamed for actually thinking it's worth writing. "Caring about immersion means you are telling everyone else what to do" is so absurd I would expect a four-year-old to call you out on it.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Please explain how someone buying an alignment change token has any impact whatsoever on YOUR immersion into the game.
What others do with their characters' alignment doesn't have any effect on what you do in the game, so why do you care? What, is it a moral objection? Some sense that you are the only one who can say how the game MUST be played? |
If you don't understand why letting other people buy their way through the game impacts immersion, you probably don't understand MMOs and why people prefer to roleplay in multiplayer games as opposed to single player ones.
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*Sigh*|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
Time equals money. It always has. If the devs believe it should take a nontrivial amount of time to change alignments, then there is no hypocrisy or inconsistency in permitting an alignment change via a nontrivial amount of money as well.
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Let's go though this again, shall we?
1) I have no problem with Alignment change being sold as is. That's not my problem, really.
2) However, these alignment changes allow you to not only change from Hero to Vigilante (or Villain to Rogue) in one shot, something which usually takes two days because of an enforced and completely arbitrary limit, but it also lets you go from Hero to Villain, which in turn takes four days. Again, there is normally an abitrary limit on this.
3) THEREFORE, I ask the Devs remove the arbitrary and pointless limit on tips and alignment missions, allowing people to play through both alignment changes in one day should they be so inclined to do all those missions in one shot.
4) The end result: People can do the in-game missions that they need to get alignment changed in one day if they so choose (while also gating alignment merits to prevent any exploits that might cause) OR they can buy a change if they don't want to do the missions.
There. Everyone wins. Is that so hard to understand?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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You keep repeating arbitrary as if it means something. Every single thing in the game is the result of an arbitrary decision. The devs have decided that they don't want it to take less than 4 days or an equivalent amount of money to shift alignments. That's it, end of story.
The actual time it takes to do the missions means nothing. They could have gated it at 1 mission per day with 4 total missions needed or 125 enemies per day with 500 enemies needed or 15 million inf per day with 60 million inf needed. Further, missions are not completed at a consistent rate. Stealthers can blow through most tips in 5 minutes. Folks setting the difficulty to -1/x1 can do the same. Someone speed-tipping can run all 5 tips in the time it takes a group of 8 to plow through 1 or 2 tips.
All of that is fine, play the game how you want to play it. But if the time-gating is removed, that means that the speed-tippers can invest a pretty trivial amount of effort in changing alignments, which the devs don't want. Making everyone wait 4 days by allowing only 25% progress per day, or again by charging a certain amount, is how they ensure that effort investment.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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I use 'arbitrary' in this case to mean pointless and seeming to lack any good reasoning to it.|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
You keep repeating arbitrary as if it means something. Every single thing in the game is the result of an arbitrary decision. The devs have decided that they don't want it to take less than 4 days or an equivalent amount of money to shift alignments. That's it, end of story.
The actual time it takes to do the missions means nothing. They could have gated it at 1 mission per day with 4 total missions needed or 125 enemies per day with 500 enemies needed or 15 million inf per day with 60 million inf needed. Further, missions are not completed at a consistent rate. Stealthers can blow through most tips in 5 minutes. Folks setting the difficulty to -1/x1 can do the same. Someone speed-tipping can run all 5 tips in the time it takes a group of 8 to plow through 1 or 2 tips. All of that is fine, play the game how you want to play it. But if the time-gating is removed, that means that the speed-tippers can invest a pretty trivial amount of effort in changing alignments, which the devs don't want. Making everyone wait 4 days by allowing only 25% progress per day, or again by charging a certain amount, is how they ensure that effort investment. |
And your argument makes no sense. Whatever happens, you still spend more time on doing missions in game than you do by just slapping down however much they charge for the AC in store, if the whole 'Time is money' thing is even held true by the devs.
Ultimately, why does it matter? It's hardly a game breaking thing to have players being able to change alignments fast, or they would never have put it in the store in the first place. What, other than money grabbing, JUSTIFIES the in-game time limit which is totally negated simply by spending cash?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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This has been answered previously:
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
What, other than money grabbing, JUSTIFIES the in-game time limit which is totally negated simply by spending cash?
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
As has been mentioned, that was not the argument to begin with. They didn't want it to be a trivial switch, in the sense of wanting to prevent frequent changes back and forth for given characters.
If they turn around and make these tokens like 80 points or something, I'll be with you, because they'll have a non-trivial barrier in game and a trivial one in the store. If they make these the point equivalent of $5 or more, I'm guessing that would be pretty non-trivial on the scale of what most people spend on gaming. People can switch fast with them each time they buy one, but most people will not pay $5 or more to switch repeatedly. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
It may be senseless to you, but that's not because its actually without reason. The decisions must seem capricious to you if you think there's no reason behind them, but that's because you don't seem to want to accept what those reasons are. That's a problem beyond the ability of the devs to address.
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De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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Why does the ability to do something two different ways take away your immersion? Oh, wait, you're saying it doesn't?|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
If that community changes to emphasize convenience over immersion, ...
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Why do YOU care if I want MY character to switch sides today instead of tomorrow? You don't want to buy Alignment Tokens? Congratulations, you have that choice! Now [soonTM], I have a choice to buy them if I want.
I am [theoretically] willing to pay to change something. You're [actually] willing to wait. Great! We both have options. How does a second choice for something erode your enjoyment and immersion of the game? Ignore the market purchase that says Alignment Token. There, I just fixed your problem!
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Ok, can we leave 'immersion' out of it, please? That's really off-topic to what the original OP was trying to address, re: still having a time-gate on the in-game method of alignment changing versus no time gate on the paid method.
Arguably, if we are talking purely about an RP/Immersion sense, I would think it odd how a character can go from 'Good' to 'Evil' in four days, or vice versa, and be instantly excepted.
That, however, is a meta-game issue, not an IC issue. And not what this thread is about.
/re-seals bunker
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Ultimately the tokens address a number of things:
1) If I want to make a Nictus character who is a villain from the get go I can use these tokens to do so without being some silly do gooder for 20 levels. Vice versa for soldiers of arachnos
2) If I don't give a flying fart in space about RP or anyone else idea's about RP and I just want to unlock the PPP's and grab some badges I can now pay money to do so. Someone else's feelings on me doing that? IRRELEVANT.
Number 2 is the biggie. I play how I want to play and NO ONE has the right to tell me otherwise so long as I am abiding by the game's EULA. If the devs want to put these tokens on the market to make a lil extra money and make life a bit more convenient for people? I say more power to 'em.
I'm actually seeing stuff added/tweaked on bases after how many years? Yea thats market money doing that and anything that adds to the game (whether content or convenience) and generates more for the company is FINE BY ME.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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Sorry but your response is silly. Explain to me how you can tell whether another person's toon did 22 missions or used the alignment token to switch sides?|
Originally Posted by Machariel
This is a hilarious strawman and you should be ashamed for actually thinking it's worth writing. "Caring about immersion means you are telling everyone else what to do" is so absurd I would expect a four-year-old to call you out on it.
If you don't understand why letting other people buy their way through the game impacts immersion, you probably don't understand MMOs and why people prefer to roleplay in multiplayer games as opposed to single player ones. |
I'll wait while you try to find something that doesn't exist.
EDIT: And even if you knew how in the hell does that break your immersion? If you right click on folks all the time and look at tabs other than their story tab (which many people don't fill out btw) YOU are the one choosing to break your immersion. Not the other player.
As I've said before, if they had introduced side switching without any major roleplay portion I doubt most players would have blinked. They allow you to insta become a hero or villain within the first 5 minutes of the tutorial, I don't see anyone screaming bloody murder about that. And WORSE for your precious immersion, in Praetoria you can go around killing and destroying as much as you want and STILL choose to be a HERO come level 20. LOL.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
The given reason was nonsense when it was given, the in-store item is just an accent mark. I'm sure any other concocted reasons are equally senseless.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound