The things you "hate" about I Trials!
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2012-01-06 11:55 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
See this post about why MoM has to change:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?p=4061786
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Yes, there is such a thing as lying there too long, but there's also a comfortable middle ground. I tend to wait about 10 seconds, then hit the hospital. I figure that gives people enough time to notice I am dead, and use Vengeance or rez me if they can. I figure there is a good chance I would have spent that 10 seconds waiting for the door to unlock anyway.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Both are bad. Getting a (decent) rez gets you back in the action so much faster than the iTrial hospital, people really should wait for a few seconds. But they shouldn't lay around dead until they've wasted way more time than it would have taken to come back on their own.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
10 seconds is fine. I see people lay around dead for minutes. I'm not kidding.
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I was wondering "How long is too long?" And came up with 10 seconds as what I figured the average wait time in the hospital would be. Wait longer and you might as well have gone to the hospital.
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It's the people not the game. People go afk while forming or alt/tab in and out from their browser. Or are in the middle of chatting. List goes on. Sometimes I hold up the queue while I finish typing out instructions, but that doesn't have anything to do with being inattentive.
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Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
23 of 24 players entering...
Okay, we've all seen the queue stop with one person left to click the green button, and we've all seen at least half a dozen snarky comments in league chat about how "there's always one." Doesn't that tell you something? The fact that this occurs with 99% regularity indicates a system behavior, not a player behavior. My theory is that the server is initializing the trial and simply not updating the player count once TEAMSIZE-1 players have been recorded as entering. Has anyone ever seen a Dev confirm that this phenomenon is the result of inattentive players rather than the system itself? I am convinced it has nothing to do with one person falling asleep at the keyboard, as it is simply far too common for that. |
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Maybe. But I still want to hear a redname weigh in on this because, as I said, the near-100% frequency of it much more strongly suggests something system-oriented, not player-oriented. Especially since it seems to happen with the same frequency whether it is 15 out of 16 or 23 out of 24, and statistically speaking, that shouldn't be the case if it just random human behavior.
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
It's the people not the game.
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NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
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Well, first of all I question the accuracy with which you can claim statistical consistency between 24 and 16 players without data. What we can assert is that happens very frequently. Do you actually have anything you can point to which proves it is really equally likely to meaningful precision with 16 players and 24? |
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
Maybe. But I still want to hear a redname weigh in on this because, as I said, the near-100% frequency of it much more strongly suggests something system-oriented, not player-oriented. Especially since it seems to happen with the same frequency whether it is 15 out of 16 or 23 out of 24, and statistically speaking, that shouldn't be the case if it just random human behavior.
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I think there are other correlations which you are not considering. If there is a person who plays trials frequently on your server, who is also frequently tabbed out looking at Facebook while waiting for trials to finish forming, that person can become a statistically significant signal in your data.
I think a far more enlightening thing to consider is what happens when the league leader doesn't queue the event until checks in. Normally, in my experience, it it starts right away.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I admit that my data is anecdotal in nature. However, I have been on all the trials numerous times and the whole "there's always one" thing has happened every time except maybe four (out of 60 or 70). Since everyone is so familiar with this I figure everyone else sees it with the same regularity, which means we can add their data to the back-of-the-napkin estimate. 99% may be a bit of an exaggeration, but even if I'm off by a little, I am still extremely suspicious that there is nearly always one and only one person holding up the zoning of the league. Occam's Razor suggests to me that the simpler answer is that it is merely a matter of how the server updates the count as seen by the client while it instantiates the trial.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Well, first of all I question the accuracy with which you can claim statistical consistency between 24 and 16 players without data. What we can assert is that happens very frequently. Do you actually have anything you can point to which proves it is really equally likely to meaningful precision with 16 players and 24?
I think there are other correlations which you are not considering. If there is a person who plays trials frequently on your server, who is also frequently tabbed out looking at Facebook while waiting for trials to finish forming, that person can become a statistically significant signal in your data. I think a far more enlightening thing to consider is what happens when the league leader doesn't queue the event until checks in. Normally, in my experience, it it starts right away. |
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
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Don't know if this is a major factor but on Protector I know of one regular Trial Leader who has admitted they are the last one to click and delays in order to give friends and others a chance to Hop in the Que.
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Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
23 of 24 players entering...
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See, I think that people are by far the simpler explanation, making that the Occam's option. The theory about the server/client interaction requires a lot of assumptions, while several of us have direct evidence that people are frequently to blame.
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Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
Occam's Razor suggests to me that the simpler answer is that it is merely a matter of how the server updates the count as seen by the client while it instantiates the trial.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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A) You're going to have to explain this one|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
This. iTrials caused me to cancel my sub and have spoiled the game for me with
a) crap stories b) cheat mechanics c) horrid inconsistencies |
B) These are actually necessary or the trials wouldn't be a challenge
C) Again, going to need examples.
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The queue doesn't work that way. As soon as you get the accept/decline window no further players can be added to the league.|
Originally Posted by Cathulhu
Don't know if this is a major factor but on Protector I know of one regular Trial Leader who has admitted they are the last one to click and delays in order to give friends and others a chance to Hop in the Que.
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The invite to league in trial doesn't work either.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
I just dislike the whole 12+ thing. As far as I am concerned the number of people required to do these missions adds nothing to the game a takes a good deal away. We all know that virtually any pre-requisite for a mission is largely fake and requiring x people to do a specific mission in a game that automatically scales is doubly bogus. However forcing that requirement up to 12-24 no only highlights the ludicrousness of it all but also undermines the genre that we are "super heroes". That's even before you get to the design issues that mean they can fail because unknown-person-1 presses the wrong power button.
I am quite sure I would enjoy these missions a lot more if I could run them with between 6 to 8 people.
I also dislike the grindy nature of the things, but that is a reflection of the design of the Incarnate powers rather than the iTrials themselves. So they shouldn't shoulder the blame for that 
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
I hate all the stupid temp powers some of these trials have. I'm looking at the regening lichen and the mushrooms you gotta collect. What happened to all those rads and darks and colds and poisons etc why aren't there minus regen powers working?
I also hate that in some of these trials a single person can fail it for everyone else makes me cringe even thinking about it.
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Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
23 of 24 players entering...
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If you have mapserver, even short one, you might not get enter button at all.
"If you want to win you must not lose."
"Easiest way to turn defeat into a victory is to put on the enemy's uniform"
"Better strategic retreat than dishonorable defeat"
- Il Numero Uno (The Number One)
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Their powers still do things. The problem is that these two Walkers have such immensely high regen rates without using the temp powers or defeating nearby Lichen that those Darks and Rads (and others like them) can't normally overwhelm it in the numbers they appear on most leagues. Not accounting for level differences, a level 50 Lingering Radiation or Howling Twilight is worth about -75% base regen against a ~level 50 AV or GM. The Regenerating War Walker has +1000% base regen until affected by a Glowing Lichen temp power. So a league could overcome the Regenerating War Walker's bonus Regen if about half of a full-sized league was able to sustain that level of debuff on it. Giving us the temp powers allows the leagues to be much more general in their composition.|
Originally Posted by Lucky666
I hate all the stupid temp powers some of these trials have. I'm looking at the regening lichen and the mushrooms you gotta collect. What happened to all those rads and darks and colds and poisons etc why aren't there minus regen powers working?
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Note that once you use temps to get rid of the bonus +regen, Rads, Darks and others ability to debuff its base regen still speed the fight along noticeably.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Can someone explain what exactly the lichen and the warwalkers are doing together, story-wise? I've only done the UGh once - never again - and I was like 'wtf? Robots and...lichen? Eh?'. It's so difficult to actually catch what story there is in these things.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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It's under the control of the DE, and the lichen links it to them.
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
Can someone explain what exactly the lichen and the warwalkers are doing together, story-wise? I've only done the UGh once - never again - and I was like 'wtf? Robots and...lichen? Eh?'. It's so difficult to actually catch what story there is in these things.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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You find a warwalker which has been built to quickly repair itself (with nanobots or something? Who knows). The lichen scattered through the tunnels impairs its self-repair mechanisms, so you use that. Then, in a twist nobody failed to see coming, the Devouring Earth lichen takes over the warwalker and makes it regenerate, so you have to fight it again.
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
Can someone explain what exactly the lichen and the warwalkers are doing together, story-wise?
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And from a narrative point of view it dramatically demonstrates how even super high technology is not safe from the forces of hyper-evolved super organics. Having DE "lichen" overtake and control a piece of IDF super tech is an epic restatement of Ian Malcom's Law that "Life finds a way." |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It's under the control of the DE, and the lichen links it to them.
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NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
You find a warwalker which has been built to quickly repair itself (with nanobots or something? Who knows). The lichen scattered through the tunnels impairs its self-repair mechanisms, so you use that. Then, in a twist nobody failed to see coming, the Devouring Earth lichen takes over the warwalker and makes it regenerate, so you have to fight it again.
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Ah, I see now.
That's actually quite cool. Shame it's in such a terrible slog of a mission.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Here's something I don't likeabout the iTrials: plot holes or storyline that makes me go 'hmm...hang on...'
BAF: If I had 2 robots who couldn't stay defeated unless both were within 10 seconds of each other, I'd have them work alternate shifts, or better yet, have them work at co pletely different locations.
LAM: i've runoads of these but because sLAMs are such rapid wham bang thank you mam affairs with no time for anything but spamming attacks and following the leader, I have no idea what we're actually supposed to be doing. Marauder has a drink of something and then goes mental is about all I got. No idea if there are any plot inconsistencies withthe LAM, then. 
Keyes: he can stop time, right? Only...not for very long? What?
And what's with the AM herding? If i was AM, I'd be like 'uh, I'll just stay over here away from the computers. Thrrrp, noobs, you got nothing now!'
UGh: Only run it once, so can't comment.
TPN: Everyone knows about the rocks by now. Terrible.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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The problem with itrials is that you are simply supposed to like them, but players don't. They are raids. Raids appeal to a very small part of the playerbase, like pvp. But those who like them are very vocal and claim that they are really popular and any real game has them. So the devs put them in, and they paid people to do the raids by making them the way to get new powers.
They may as well have made incarnate powers only earned by pvping. Either way you are forcing a lot of players to do something they don't want to in order to get the pellet at the end.
What is worse, is that the devs have become attached to the raids - probably due to the amount of effort they have put into them. So now they are forcing you to play the ones you especially don't like to get your pellet.
CoX is becoming a game that they bribe you to play (weekly TF's) rather than a game that you play because it is fun.
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If your facility is defended by a Gatorade commercial on crack, and a bunch of portals that can send in more goons to fight off attackers, why would you leave the means to counter these defenses just lying around the facility?
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
LAM: i've runoads of these but because sLAMs are such rapid wham bang thank you mam affairs with no time for anything but spamming attacks and following the leader, I have no idea what we're actually supposed to be doing. Marauder has a drink of something and then goes mental is about all I got. No idea if there are any plot inconsistencies withthe LAM, then.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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For the same reason that you build armored space staions with exposed exhaust ports |
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
If your facility is defended by a Gatorade commercial on crack, and a bunch of portals that can send in more goons to fight off attackers, why would you leave the means to counter these defenses just lying around the facility?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
*looks at the Statesman Loyalty Program that will end when i22 comes out*|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
CoX is becoming a game that they bribe you to play (weekly TF's) rather than a game that you play because it is fun.
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Yup.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA