The things you "hate" about I Trials!
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2012-01-06 11:55 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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OK, as I thought. Then no, asking for level shifts is not at all the same as asking for certain ATs. Leaders ask for certain ATs because they want a balanced team - "we have five damage dealers, we need some support" or "we have all squishies, we could use a tank", that kind of thing. Nobody ever says "We have too many +3s, we need more unshifted characters to make this trial easier."|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I meant "TFs"
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If you want to compare it to a TF, it's like asking for characters that are IO'ed out.
Asking for level shifted toons is hardly something to call hardcore. The trials do have a very minor amount of progression in them, something that isn't necessarily a bad thing. This is endgame content, content that is supposed to be harder and get harder as we progress. lvl 56 AVs aren't meant to be killed by nonlevel shifted 50s. It's not hard to do some of the first TFs on your new toons a few times, and pick up a level shift before doing the higher tier trials. If the only trial forming is one of the higher tier trials, why can't you switch to a higher level shifted toon? I am sure there is something they can get out of it. You can also mail threads via ouro to new toons to get them lvl shifts before even setting foot in a trial. T3 alpha doesn't take many threads - convert a handful of astrals and mail them to your new toon, and maybe do the WST to get the notice for T3.
Just be glad the trials don't require real progression like other MMOs. Requiring you to always run with the same group. Requiring you to run the dungeon multiple times learning how to beat it before actually even completing it. Wiping multiple times learning each boss. A normal guild, with experienced players that work well together can spend a month working through endgame content before completing it the first time, and a while longer before they can get that content on farm. Here, you can pick up a whole league of random joes, without any guarantee of how good they are, and complete a trial the first time you run through it. There is no wiping repeatedly on bosses learning their mechanics, there is no learning how to work as a well oiled machine, effectively no progression, you go in with whatever you can pick up right then and there and you expect to finish it without a hitch, and if you don't throw a fit, as everyone has such a massive sense of entitlement. Sometimes you need to put a little effort into it, and the amount of effort needed for the trials is very minimal, moreso when you compare them to other games, it IS casual.
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LOL No... it really isn't. Sometimes I think you simple disagree or say things so others will disagree with you just for fun. There is no LOGICAL comparison between asking for +3s for supposed level 50 content and asking for a tank on a STF.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That's the same as things like the TFs asking for certain ATs
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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Asking for level shifted toons on UGT: If you don't have enough level shifted toons you will be lacking dps, which means you will spend significantly more time fighting warwalkers and the avatar, the longer those fights go on the more time there is for someone to make a mistake (on warwalkers) and not move out resulting in a wipe and potentially a trial fail from running out of time, or on avatar you don't have enough dps and your clarions or other resources begin running out, the avatar's -res stacks up, people die and lose their buffs, the longer the fight goes on the higher the chance for fail increases.|
Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
LOL No... it really isn't. Sometimes I think you simple disagree or say things so others will disagree with you just for fun. There is no LOGICAL comparison between asking for +3s for supposed level 50 content and asking for a tank on a STF.
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Asking for a tank on STF: If you don't have a reasonable way to hold the attention of lord recluse you risk not being able to complete the TF, if he is not managed he will run through your team and rout the group, unless you have extraordinary dps and buffing. This may lead to the TF taking a significantly longer amount of time to complete or the group giving up and disbanding.
Whether you're asking for level shifts or a specific AT the goal is the same: Make the tf or trial go as smoothly as possible and minimize the chance for failure.
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The goal is the same, when stated in broad terms, yes. The overall effect is not - an STF might need more damage, more healing, more debuffs, more tanking, or whatever, depending on what they already have. When forming a UG, what you need depends very little on what you already have; preferably, you want 24 +3s; if you have enough level shifts and Clarions you might be willing to bring anybody at all for the remaining spots, but at no point do you say "we have enough level shifts, need more unshifted characters". Moreover, you don't run a bunch of ITFs first to turn your Corruptor into a Tanker so that you can tank an STF to make it go smoothly.
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
Whether you're asking for level shifts or a specific AT the goal is the same: Make the tf or trial go as smoothly as possible and minimize the chance for failure.
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A tank is absolutely not needed for the STF; I do it quite regularly and swiftly with teams of supposed "squishies" The problem is you have leaders who REQUIRE +3 for certain trials when it is simply not needed - you yourself said|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
Asking for level shifted toons on UGT: If you don't have enough level shifted toons you will be lacking dps, which means you will spend significantly more time fighting warwalkers and the avatar, the longer those fights go on the more time there is for someone to make a mistake (on warwalkers) and not move out resulting in a wipe and potentially a trial fail from running out of time, or on avatar you don't have enough dps and your clarions or other resources begin running out, the avatar's -res stacks up, people die and lose their buffs, the longer the fight goes on the higher the chance for fail increases.
Asking for a tank on STF: If you don't have a reasonable way to hold the attention of lord recluse you risk not being able to complete the TF, if he is not managed he will run through your team and rout the group, unless you have extraordinary dps and buffing. This may lead to the TF taking a significantly longer amount of time to complete or the group giving up and disbanding. Whether you're asking for level shifts or a specific AT the goal is the same: Make the tf or trial go as smoothly as possible and minimize the chance for failure. |
"There is no wiping repeatedly on bosses learning their mechanics, there is no learning how to work as a well oiled machine, effectively no progression, you go in with whatever you can pick up right then and there and you expect to finish it without a hitch, and if you don't throw a fit, as everyone has such a massive sense of entitlement. Sometimes you need to put a little effort into it, and the amount of effort needed for the trials is very minimal, moreso when you compare them to other games, it IS casual."
So which is it?? Level shifts are required? Or just a team that can work together is required?
And don't get me wrong... I like ITrials
I just am not a completely blinded person who can see the faults with them - of which there are many.
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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No but you may run a bunch of ITFs on your tank at lvl 35-49 before you run a STF, the ITFs help you reach a combat level that can tackle the STF. The trials are sorta the same thing, except without the hard lockouts, the newer ones are basically higher level tfs. |
Originally Posted by Hopeling
The goal is the same, when stated in broad terms, yes. The overall effect is not - an STF might need more damage, more healing, more debuffs, more tanking, or whatever, depending on what they already have. When forming a UG, what you need depends very little on what you already have; preferably, you want 24 +3s; if you have enough level shifts and Clarions you might be willing to bring anybody at all for the remaining spots, but at no point do you say "we have enough level shifts, need more unshifted characters". Moreover, you don't run a bunch of ITFs first to turn your Corruptor into a Tanker so that you can tank an STF to make it go smoothly.
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ITF:STF::BAF:TPN
Also not really related but in my experience 16 man UGTs are far superior to 24 man UGTs. >_> But you're right in that I'd want as many of those 16 to be +3 as possible, however if I noticed the league did have an inordinate amount of level shifts and I knew someone was wanting to bring a toon that needed shifts, I'd probably be very willing to allow them to switch. In the grand scheme of things, the ultimate goal is to get _everyone_ level shifted so that when new trials come out people will have their toons at +3 to run them smoothly.
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I never said tanks were required, I was simply using the TF and AT you mentioned as an example. Heck I avoid (though I don't deny them) having tanks, they're inefficient on TFs compared to brutes and scrappers.|
Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
A tank is absolutely not needed for the STF; I do it quite regularly and swiftly with teams of supposed "squishies" The problem is you have leaders who REQUIRE +3 for certain trials when it is simply not needed - you yourself said
"There is no wiping repeatedly on bosses learning their mechanics, there is no learning how to work as a well oiled machine, effectively no progression, you go in with whatever you can pick up right then and there and you expect to finish it without a hitch, and if you don't throw a fit, as everyone has such a massive sense of entitlement. Sometimes you need to put a little effort into it, and the amount of effort needed for the trials is very minimal, moreso when you compare them to other games, it IS casual." So which is it?? Level shifts are required? Or just a team that can work together is required? And don't get me wrong... I like ITrials I just am not a completely blinded person who can see the faults with them - of which there are many. |
When I form trials I send tells to all my solo online friends and broadcast in global channels and broadcast. By doing this there is usually enough level shifts that nothing needs to be said. If there is an overall lack of level shifts I'll probably tell the league this and if they are willing to do lam, baf, or keyes instead of one of the higher trials, most everyone is usually ok with this, and I don't have to ask for people to switch or leave if they aren't level shifted to a certain degree. For TPN, MoM, and UGT I do require (as most of the other trial leaders on my server require as well) a +1 minimum, on my server that is the norm and it is rarely complained about. There was only one time that I required all +3s and that was on a master badge run of TPN in which I was trying to complete that same day before my account went f2p.
Level shifts are by no means required to complete these trials, but my goal as the person who is forming and leading it would be to make sure they go as smoothly and quickly as possible and complete them successfully. Smooth trials keep everyone happy about the trials and keep everyone willing to run the higher tier trials which offer better rewards.
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Are you typing in an irish accent?|
Originally Posted by Cobalt Azurean
You left out this part: (and the changes to Keyes is a direct result of feedback from players), which would be the 'squeaky wheel' I referred to earlier.
Also, data-minin' just says that it wasn't bein' run as often as somethin' that people were more comfortable with. Which is normal. People don't like change. They stay within their comfort zone. It doesn't actually say why. However, as above, the why is stated as bein' based upon player feedback, which it must've been negative as it wouldn't have been changed otherwise. Thus, again, squeaky wheel. Who's 'us'? You? Them? Not certainly I. You can't please everyone. No news is good news, and they shouldn't think that just because a few people were forced to do grouped content in a MMORPG, and therefore complained about it, shouldn't be appeased. Or because they didn't like the 'gimmick' o' the trial, or couldn't form up fast enough, or couldn't lead their way out o' a wet paperbag, or couldn't succeed with just facerollin' their way through the content. What about those o' us who didn't have a problem with it, who still ran the content with the original challenge o' it, and enjoyed it? Just because we didn't feel the need to run to the forums and proverbially heap praise upon our content overlords doesn't mean that I wasn't pleased by their efforts and output. We just went about our business and pressed forth. That's what I meant above by 'no news is good news'. Keyes is referred to as lolKeyes now because o' the changes. It's not a challenge anymore. It's a joke. Even if you have 1% regen, you'll be back at full health before the next pulse hits. Why bother havin' it now if it's not goin' take effort on part o' the league to overcome it? Thanks for the break down. I didn't know I could only be in either o' those two options that you gave me from your strict outlook that's biased towards bein' on the other side o' this. I'll keep that in mind as this isn't my first rodeo on the intarwebz. See above for what I said about data-minin' and what part it actually plays. I've said what I wanted to say, and clarified for those that questioned, and now I'll get back to actually spendin' more time playin' the game than talkin' about it. |
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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I used to basically ignore level shifts when recruiting for trials until I understood the mentality of those who bring +0's to UG: even if the trial fails they still get a big chunk of iXP, astrals and threads at the expense of others' time while contributing little to nothing to the two key battles.
I never bother optimizing team composition and I don't really care how effective your character is. But I do expect, at least, a show of good faith and the intention to contribute. Someone intentionally bringing a +0 to UG fails that requirement.
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The only trial I think anyone should be doing that on is the MoM. I think most everyone needs to be +2 or +3 on that. On the UGT or TPN, I don't think that. If at least half the league is +2-ish, they should be fine. The fewer +3s you have, the more important it is to have buffs and debuffs on the league.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
When I see leaders asking for +3 and +2s on the last 3 trials, I don't consider that casual, no not really.
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To read folks here, I can see where maybe there are servers that lack much quantity of +3s, and in such an environment, I could see leaders specifically requesting them, just to get a core of them on a league. Some place like Justice, that's just not usually necessary. Sure, random PuG #117 might not end up with many +3s, especially late at night, but it's not especially the norm.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Honestly, as long as there are a minority of such characters, I don't mind if they come. As with everything, it depends on what else is going on. If I have four or five of my in-game friends on my league, and most of the rest of the league is at least +1 and not known morons, I'm largely confident the trial will succeed. (So far only one UGT I've lead has failed.)|
Originally Posted by Laevateinn
I never bother optimizing team composition and I don't really care how effective your character is. But I do expect, at least, a show of good faith and the intention to contribute. Someone intentionally bringing a +0 to UG fails that requirement.
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Those +0 folks can still fight the spawns mostly fine. And while I do want to limit the likelihood they'll cause my trial to crash and burn by having too many of them, I don't blame them for coveting the iXP version of the ITF.
On my server, there aren't that many trials run. There's usually only 1-2 leagues running at any given time. If you want iProgress, you need to take what's running, or you don't get a trial at all. That is going to be one of the most compelling benefits of the new Dark Astoria, in my opinion.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
The way +0s are getting talked about is the way the other game talks about "bads" and "scrubs" so as a convenience you can shorten a lot of the arguments to "I don't want to carry bads".
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Given that this is not that other game, I'll respond with a hearty "no" to that.
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Originally Posted by Ogi
The way +0s are getting talked about is the way the other game talks about "bads" and "scrubs" so as a convenience you can shorten a lot of the arguments to "I don't want to carry bads".
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I am beginning to wonder if you and a few others here just play devils advocate and act obtuse about these things on purpose for reasons unknown. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It's grading rewards by difficulty, just like the 1-50 game does - once you start fighting grays, you stop getting any form of progress, so you have to find tougher enemies to continue your progress - or do you still rage when you hit level 10 in Atlas Park, and the evil devs force you to move to another zone to fight tougher enemeis if you want to progress further by taking away all ther ewards from the Atlas Park enemies?
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The comparison is not a good one since the devs have not made it clear that what you claim is the actual fact about the intended purpose of incarnate progression. Incarnate progression is not 1-50 leveling, if it were then at some point you would "out level" the BAF which is certainly NOT the case as is. No getting all t4 in all five slots is NOT out leveling, it is in fact progression and no they are not the same and you know it.
Intellectual dishonesty is not cute so cut the crap GG.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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I presume it will be the same thing that motivates them today.|
Originally Posted by Agent White
Well, what is going to motivate a person to bother with new content if they can use everything they've hoarded already to unlock all the new abilities right away? Nothing, really.
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At the moment, there are a lot of +3's with no real reason to run the trials anymore, no need or desire to add yet another ability to their slots, but run them anyway. Who cares if, when the new slots become available, they unlock them and slot them up instantly? These guys (and gals) will grind the new trials just because they can, not because they need to. It's what they do today, and I suspect it will be what they continue to do until the servers finally shut down for good.
You can probably divide the hardcore player base into those that enjoy the trials for their own sake, those that do them to stockpile components for the future, and those that do them as part of a routine of cycling through WTFs, SSAs, Tips, and whatever other repeatable content is available. And when none of that is motivational enough, they turn to playing alts and sending them through the whole process. I don't see these players losing motivation to play just because they can insta-slot their mains. And I imagine that non-hardcore players aren't stockpiling and will be doing the new trials and unlocking the new slots at a nice even pace just like the devs want.
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
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Actually on smaller servers it's especially the norm that those later/new trials just don't form.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
The only trial I think anyone should be doing that on is the MoM. I think most everyone needs to be +2 or +3 on that. On the UGT or TPN, I don't think that. If at least half the league is +2-ish, they should be fine. The fewer +3s you have, the more important it is to have buffs and debuffs on the league.
To read folks here, I can see where maybe there are servers that lack much quantity of +3s, and in such an environment, I could see leaders specifically requesting them, just to get a core of them on a league. Some place like Justice, that's just not usually necessary. Sure, random PuG #117 might not end up with many +3s, especially late at night, but it's not especially the norm. |
/shrug.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Uber the issue is that +0s don't have things like tier 3 or even tier 1 clarions, which puts more pressure on everyone else that has it. THAT's why you don't see a lot of people allowing regular 50s on UG.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Honestly, as long as there are a minority of such characters, I don't mind if they come. As with everything, it depends on what else is going on. If I have four or five of my in-game friends on my league, and most of the rest of the league is at least +1 and not known morons, I'm largely confident the trial will succeed. (So far only one UGT I've lead has failed.)
Those +0 folks can still fight the spawns mostly fine. And while I do want to limit the likelihood they'll cause my trial to crash and burn by having too many of them, I don't blame them for coveting the iXP version of the ITF. On my server, there aren't that many trials run. There's usually only 1-2 leagues running at any given time. If you want iProgress, you need to take what's running, or you don't get a trial at all. That is going to be one of the most compelling benefits of the new Dark Astoria, in my opinion. |
I agree with your points on Dark Astoria though.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Pretty much this. Also I'd argue that the single thing that the devs can do to keep Incarnate interest up is giving Incarnates something other to do when they can't form for the new trials (like at 11PM eastern on Freedom or even Virtue. |
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
I presume it will be the same thing that motivates them today.
At the moment, there are a lot of +3's with no real reason to run the trials anymore, no need or desire to add yet another ability to their slots, but run them anyway. Who cares if, when the new slots become available, they unlock them and slot them up instantly? These guys (and gals) will grind the new trials just because they can, not because they need to. It's what they do today, and I suspect it will be what they continue to do until the servers finally shut down for good. You can probably divide the hardcore player base into those that enjoy the trials for their own sake, those that do them to stockpile components for the future, and those that do them as part of a routine of cycling through WTFs, SSAs, Tips, and whatever other repeatable content is available. And when none of that is motivational enough, they turn to playing alts and sending them through the whole process. I don't see these players losing motivation to play just because they can insta-slot their mains. And I imagine that non-hardcore players aren't stockpiling and will be doing the new trials and unlocking the new slots at a nice even pace just like the devs want. |
) they are already going to do: another way for Incarnates to progress in smaller groups, duos, trios or solo when there aren't enough people to even start a BAF.Bring on Dark Astoria.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Yup pretty much this.
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Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
I presume it will be the same thing that motivates them today.
At the moment, there are a lot of +3's with no real reason to run the trials anymore, no need or desire to add yet another ability to their slots, but run them anyway. Who cares if, when the new slots become available, they unlock them and slot them up instantly? These guys (and gals) will grind the new trials just because they can, not because they need to. It's what they do today, and I suspect it will be what they continue to do until the servers finally shut down for good. You can probably divide the hardcore player base into those that enjoy the trials for their own sake, those that do them to stockpile components for the future, and those that do them as part of a routine of cycling through WTFs, SSAs, Tips, and whatever other repeatable content is available. And when none of that is motivational enough, they turn to playing alts and sending them through the whole process. I don't see these players losing motivation to play just because they can insta-slot their mains. And I imagine that non-hardcore players aren't stockpiling and will be doing the new trials and unlocking the new slots at a nice even pace just like the devs want. |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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A frigging man.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Bring on Dark Astoria. |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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I challenge any player to name one point, any point, where anything in BAF/Lambda/Keyes/UGT/TPN/MoM are grey conning to a player.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It's grading rewards by difficulty, just like the 1-50 game does - once you start fighting grays, you stop getting any form of progress, so you have to find tougher enemies to continue your progress - or do you still rage when you hit level 10 in Atlas Park, and the evil devs force you to move to another zone to fight tougher enemeis if you want to progress further by taking away all ther ewards from the Atlas Park enemies?
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At this point the absolute lowest critter anyone faces is +1 minions. At worst, it is +3 AVs.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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...TPN cameras.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
I challenge any player to name one point, any point, where anything in BAF/Lambda/Keyes/UGT/TPN/MoM are grey conning to a player.
At this point the absolute lowest critter anyone faces is +1 minions. At worst, it is +3 AVs. |
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And the reward levels are exactly the same - we've gone from fighting purples to fighting yellows and oranges - in the 1-50 game, this has an effect on the XP - on the Trials, it doesn't.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
I challenge any player to name one point, any point, where anything in BAF/Lambda/Keyes/UGT/TPN/MoM are grey conning to a player.
At this point the absolute lowest critter anyone faces is +1 minions. At worst, it is +3 AVs. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Edit: Wait, TSF? What is a TSF? I'm guessing Task/Strike Force, but I've never seen anyone refer to that as TSF before so I'm suddenly uncertain.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork