The things you "hate" about I Trials!
This is an MMO, in MMOs content gets farmed. The enemies you kill will still be there the next time you run the content.
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Who are you referring to to when you say 'you' in terms of 'the enemies you kill will still be there the next time you run into them'?
If you mean 'you, the player', then yes, Stephanie Peebles ring is gone again the next time I go to Striga with a different toon.
But I'm not talking about the player experience. I'm talking abput the narrative.
MrCaptainMan, my main, is a lvl 50+3 en/en Blaster. He has rescued Stephanie's ring once, he has discovered the Truth behind Faultline once and he has defeated Frostfire once in his frozen base in the Hollows. If he goes back to the Hollows now, Frostfire will not be there for him, because that narrative strand is finished. If he visits Faultline, Jim Temblor won't be all "oh I'm very sad cos everyone says my dad was a villain' and Cap won't get to fight Arbiter Sands or that Lost psychic with the giant head again.
The only way I can have Cap fight past enemies from normal instanced cobtent is via Ouro, and narratively that's explained by being time travel.
The TFs are one place I can repeat content and find the same enemies in the way you describe, but the vast majority of the game we play does not work in the way you describe it for individual toons.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
The more I think of it, the sillier the iTrial narrative design seems. I used to think tge BAF and LAM were treatable as repeatable narratively. Seige and NS are trying to release mindwashed again, and we have to stop them again, and look, Cole's filled up his weapons caches again, time to go destroy them again.
But if they're really only supposed to actually happen once for each character's story, then what are the endless repetitions supposed to be?
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
But anyway, if our aim is to destroy the weapons caches at the Lambda facility, and we do so, why do we have to fight Marauder afterwards? Why don't we all just fly over the wall and escape?
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Just kill things and take their stuff, which is the real point after all.
Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
Maybe they went about it the wrong way. It takes X number of normal story arcs plus a bit of street-sweeping and the odd TF maybe for a toon to get from 0 to 50, and I believe it can be done wihout repeating any content.
Perhaps they should have worked out how many iTrials ( or empys or astrals or threads or whatever iRewards they want to use as a metric) it will take for a toon to get from 50 to the maximum tricked out incarnate progress state (after all, theoretically once you've crafted every single Incarnate ability for every single slot you're done for the time being until they introduce new slots) and then released that number of different iTrials, lockig toons out of them once they'd done them and gained their rewards.
So if it would take like grinding iTrials 1000 times to get to uber-Incarnate, they'd need 1000 separate iTrials.
That would certainly slow down the i-progress, which would keep us subbing for longer.
And it wouldn't cause any storyline problems.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
The more I think of it, the sillier the iTrial narrative design seems. I used to think tge BAF and LAM were treatable as repeatable narratively. Seige and NS are trying to release mindwashed again, and we have to stop them again, and look, Cole's filled up his weapons caches again, time to go destroy them again.
But if they're really only supposed to actually happen once for each character's story, then what are the endless repetitions supposed to be? |
The more intricate the story behind any given content, whether it's the story of our characters going through the missions or just the backstory leading up to the missions, the less sense it makes for repeating it to be a case of facing down the same villains trying to do the same thing again. Facing Arachnos robbing the bank in a Safeguard mission over and over sort of makes sense (though bank robbing seems a bit mundane for Lord Recluse...), but uncovering and then stopping an intricate plot to poison the city's water supply stops making sense pretty much the second time you do it. You would know what Dr. Vahz was doing and just go straight to stopping him. How many times can we kidnap Ms. Liberty from that base in Nerva and beat up the Freedom Phalanx? How many times is Reichsman going to try and form the League of Evil People Who Don't Want to Help Him?
Let me be clear that I'm not so much defending the way things are as the best idea. All I'm saying is that the water is way, way under the bridge. As a player base we were all pretty pumped back when TFs were made such that we could exemplar down and run them even if we had out leveled them. Everything sort of snowballed from there, and we have mostly quietly accepted repeating content, even if the repeating makes little narrative sense. Building the iTrials on this model was mostly a case of the devs taking something that seemed to work and running with it.
The only reason I think anyone is complaining is that the iProgress requires such focused iTrial repetition. It's not like normal leveling where you can do a TF, then go do missions or something for a while before even touching another TF. I22 will hopefully help significantly with this, but right now, it's pretty severe.
I can't tell if you're serious about 1000 iTrials that you could each only ever run once, but I sure hope not. That sounds terrible.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Not very serious, no . But GG at least would get another 1000 'this [whatever] is awesome because it is!' posts out of them
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
- I hate the way people feel the need to fill the league to the maximum before starting.
- I hate the fact that leaders spend time before loading into the trial trying to organize teams a certain way when the trial doesn't require it.
- I hate when leaders lock full leagues (a lot).
- I hate that the league system doesn't play well with locked leagues.
- I hate backseat drivers.
- I hate people that ignore proven tactics, given a valid explanation. Such as how to taunt WW or Night/Siege or fighting IN FRONT of the terminals in Keyes.
As far as the content of the trials...
- I hated the TP kick from maelstrom, better since the change.
- I hate the fact that Antimatter doesn't stay taunted very well.
- I hate the fact that Olympian guards do so much dmg with the stun.
- I hate the first part of the UG where you have to wait.
![](http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb323/coharkyaeon/redarksig_clear_ps_new.png)
Issue 24 PPM Calculator // The Great Makeover: The Vindicators
I think it stems from several factors as to why so many seem to hate content some just roll through and move past like any other part of the game.
For one COX is very solo friendly. This is one of its greatest strengths to be honest imo. However when players long used to, maybe even spoiled by the ease such content has in that it lacks a need for real strategy and creates real challenge.
Now While I hate how they end with fighting characters that shouldnt be any tougher AVs then when we used to solo them in certain story arcs instead of some fun battle of epic proportians pitting us against like upwards of a dozen AVs at once that you needed to seperate to avoid them buffing each other etc, you know like 8 on 8 would to me be more heroic feeling.
I love how effective the incarnate powers are at doing what IMO they are meant to do. Let me feel more powerful then I was, without breaking the old content entirely.
For years some of my favorite TFs are in the shadow shard. except doc Qs I run the rest fairly often, especially those with a lvl 50 cap. These TFs have long been feared by many because of the heavy def debuff, psi dmg, and CC heavy power of the ruls which tear into some of the most hardy of tanks and scrappers.
Even now many newer players, or poor man builds, struggle to survive there, and when i run TFs I can often see long before looking at thier build info, the issues hindering them. Some seek to learn how to become stronger, some say its thier concept and it wont be changed for any reason.
As a Lore Based RPer I understand concept desire, but refuse to let it force me into making an inferior character anymore then I let the so called optimal power comboes be my reason for picking sets. For example I have a many years old and frequently shelved dark sr and dark regen. both are fun concepts and do fit the power sets i chose, but the sets despite being among the most godly combos just feel dull.
My Psi/Ment blaster who most say is the most gimped of blaster sets for dps is imo the best character I have, and he outperforms id guess humbly 90% of ALL other players I run with if not more.
Nor do I see an issue with I trials themselves making us have to use our new powers wisely. However I do understand the feeling of frustration that can occur when a large group based activity is easily ruined by one person, be it through ignorance, accident, or intent.
This is why imo I trials need a different system to punish. Like a lengthy lockdown in a cell. for example using extreme powers like flashy aoes gets you targeted by a insta kill sat laser. you end up in a cell that is nigh impossible to escape from. requiring several allies. Now the main team has to lose members to save the lost one or move on without him. This would be a good way to have those griefing get shut down, while those who screw up by accident or first time can be shown mercy and those helping can feel more heroic.
Personally I dont tie the RP of being incarnated up with the trials at all, they are just big war stories that after one time have been done as far as the story goes. I actually prefer for RP reasons to just grab WST notices and convert them slow and steady style. might take a while but my characters get where they need and do so doing alot of the content ive always enjoyed.
The only reason I think anyone is complaining is that the iProgress requires such focused iTrial repetition. It's not like normal leveling where you can do a TF, then go do missions or something for a while before even touching another TF.
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And yes, I am aware that DFB also encourages repetition with its selection of rewards. It was created to train newbies for the eventual iTrial grind.
I22 will hopefully help significantly with this, but right now, it's pretty severe. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
The one and only thing I dislike about the iTrials are that if you are not Level 50 or not an Incarante, it is nigh impossible to find an 8 person team (or sometimes any team at all). This varies from server to server, I'm sure - but on Champion I can spend an hour trying to form up a team or a task force with no luck.
Since the iTrials came out, I haven't seen any Hamidon raids, Kahn TFs, Statesman/Lord Recluse TFs, LGTFs, or mothership raids...the only task that gives alpha slot common components that I still see run are ITFs.
I love the Incarnate stuff, but I feel like it overshadows the older content.
50s: Silent Spy - MA/Regen Scrapper | Tinkerhell - SS/Inv Brute | Extrasensory - Psi/Men Blaster | Ana Cruz - DP/PD Corruptor | Sara Thunderbird - Elec/Elec Scrapper | Pinstrike - Spines/SR Scrapper | Cold Feet - Cold/Cold Blaster
@Silent Spy, Champion Server
It requires repetition, period. In normal leveling you can do a TF, then go do missions and never touch that same TF again, unless you want to. You gain all the rewards that are exclusive to that TF the first time. The only exceptions I can think of are the ITF, and that's only if you want the Nictus weapons, and Hami, simply because of the sheer number of people required.
And yes, I am aware that DFB also encourages repetition with its selection of rewards. It was created to train newbies for the eventual iTrial grind. |
Even if that's what happened, I don't think they did a great job what with the rush of people that burned themselves out on BAF and Lambda. I think there was too much repetition there, even for most people who liked re-running TFs.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
I suppose that follows. I am not sure it's likely, though (as you may have been hinting at with the "quixotic" bit), since the devs also seem to want to use them as a narrative vehicle. If they create more story-arc-driven content in the vein of I22's DA, that may be able to change, with the arcs being the narrative delivery and the iTrials then being something fits into that narrative, but makes repetition (more) sensible.
There's still a problem, though. For that to work, the repeatable tasks have to relate to something that makes sense to be essentially static. "Winning" at the trial can't really be associated with any change in the narrative. Roughly, it'd be like the trial equivalent or running the PvP zone missions. Longbow and Arachnos aren't going anywhere, so invading their bases over and over without really affecting the larger world makes sense.
But even a narrative told in story arcs needs to either go somewhere, or end up unresolved. If the arc narrative goes somewhere, then even though the associated iTrials may be internally consistent with repetition, they won't make sense for anyone who got past that part of the arc narrative. If the arc leaves things unresolved, and we're running the trial over and over in an eternal status quo, then (at least in my opinion) that doesn't feel much better than running something with a story over and over. One breaks immersion, but the other just feels ... empty.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
While I acknowledge my anecdotes can't be taken as representative of the playerbase, this was never an issue for me. I and may other players on Justice ran TFs and SFs many, many times for Reward Merits and general entertainment. I suspect, but cannot prove, that this was extremely common behavior visible in data mining, which led to the impression that people were going to be satisfied with running iTrials over and over.
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There's still a problem, though. For that to work, the repeatable tasks have to relate to something that makes sense to be essentially static. "Winning" at the trial can't really be associated with any change in the narrative. Roughly, it'd be like the trial equivalent or running the PvP zone missions. Longbow and Arachnos aren't going anywhere, so invading their bases over and over without really affecting the larger world makes sense.
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But even a narrative told in story arcs needs to either go somewhere, or end up unresolved. If the arc narrative goes somewhere, then even though the associated iTrials may be internally consistent with repetition, they won't make sense for anyone who got past that part of the arc narrative. If the arc leaves things unresolved, and we're running the trial over and over in an eternal status quo, then (at least in my opinion) that doesn't feel much better than running something with a story over and over. One breaks immersion, but the other just feels ... empty. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Another problem I see with cramming storyline into the iTrials is that you only geg a tiny bit of story. It takes multiple hours of gameplay to run the whole of the Striga storyline, or Croatoa, or First Ward, and many dozens of missions. This gives a feeling that the story lasts a long time. The Praetoria storyline delivered in the iTrials is over in what, 8 short missions? The fact that thy are intended to be run over and over and over may fool some into thinking the iTrials give hundreds of hours of content, but they don't.
I fear that the DA content will not be analogous to the amount of individual missions delivered with Croatoa or Faultline or FW for example, because the devs think that running a repeatable mission 5 times is as good as running a 5-mission story arc.
That's a grim road to go down in terns of delivering content i
IMO.
It would be interesting to see a breakdown of each new zone that's been introduced with a count of the missions and TFs etc that came with them.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Another problem I see with cramming storyline into the iTrials is that you only geg a tiny bit of story. It takes multiple hours of gameplay to run the whole of the Striga storyline, or Croatoa, or First Ward, and many dozens of missions. This gives a feeling that the story lasts a long time. The Praetoria storyline delivered in the iTrials is over in what, 8 short missions? The fact that thy are intended to be run over and over and over may fool some into thinking the iTrials give hundreds of hours of content, but they don't.
I fear that the DA content will not be analogous to the amount of individual missions delivered with Croatoa or Faultline or FW for example, because the devs think that running a repeatable mission 5 times is as good as running a 5-mission story arc. That's a grim road to go down in terns of delivering content i IMO. It would be interesting to see a breakdown of each new zone that's been introduced with a count of the missions and TFs etc that came with them. Eco |
As for DA, we'll just have to wait and see, but number of missions isn't a really good metric.
No, I agree that pure numbers of missions don't make an engaging story-see the Dr Q TF for example.
But just giving us repeatable content isn't the way to go either. I wonder how many non-repeatable arcs/missions DA will have.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Again, the Mothership raid. We have effectively ended the Rikti war through the RWZ storyarcs and the LGTF, but the last holdouts are still here, and nobody can figure out how to actually get inside the mothership. Still, the main storyline is resolved, and the world is safe. If the arc narrative did make earlier trials obsolete, it would be up to the individual player whether they wanted to keep running them or not.
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Say we defeat Dr. Vahzilok as part of the main story. He's gone, we've moved on. However, his Reapers and Mortificators aren't going anywhere any time soon. In fact, one of them is desperate enough to release a monster so terrible that even the Good Doctor never wanted to release it. A team of 8 heroes is needed to defeat this monster, but upon completion, it is revealed that the Doctor made a large, undisclosed number of these and there's every chance another desperate Reaper will release another one into the city. The story has moved on, but artefacts of it remain and serve as repeatable content.
The general point is that you have one storyline, or a few storylines that run the length of the game, each of which occasionally branches off into a TF or Trial with a plot that both explains why that task is still relevant despite the storyline having moved on AND explains why victory over it can never be permanent.
Longer story doesnt necessarily mean better story. Not saying trials have good story though, but the cutscenes in the trials are already long enough, I don't want to spend half of every trial sitting in a cutscene so people can have their story.
As for DA, we'll just have to wait and see, but number of missions isn't a really good metric. |
Far be it from me to ask that Trials involve even more time sitting on your hands, staring at your screen. That's not the point, specifically because Trials are content you can't really stagger and content that requires organisation to run. But actual story arcs themselves are - in my opinion at least - always better off being longer. Again, a longer arc isn't guaranteed to be better, but it has a better chance of being good, as well as a better chance of pacing its narrative.
Quality over quantity really only works in level ranges where content already exists to begin with, so you don't need to dump a massive amount there. But for Incarnates, who more or less constitute a level range of their own, there is no content whatsoever. In this case, quantity over quality should be the order of the day. Dump a HUGE amount of very simple content in there so people have something to keep them occupied, and only then, once you've populated the field, can you go in and add the small, focused, "high-quality" arcs. Trying to inject short, snippy arcs in a level range with no content is a very major mistake.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
See, I don't think the Mothership raids are that great an example. I find them a fun, but story-wise hollow experience. Don't get me wrong, I don't get any great satisfaction from the embedded story in iTrials, and the cutscenes got old fast, but I don't feel that things like the RWZ are any great shakes just because they're vaguely explainable. I don't ever feel like I'm accomplishing anything fighting the Rikti. I know they'll be back as soon as the shields come up. The raid is just an excuse to earn VMerits. Sure, it's fun, but for me, its (lack of) story has zero to do with that.
Hamidon is different for me. Like the Rikti, I know he'll be back, but it feels right that he's going to be back, because he is the big bad, and his presence in The Hive / Abyss is completely open ended. There's no plot you obviously stop, there's just the mechanics of overcoming his off-the-scale stats. He's impersonal and so is fighting him. Your imagination can insert reasons why he's there and what fighting him actually achieves. Anything with more sense of plot prevents that. Even with the mothership raids. we plant bombs on the Rikti ship, but that apparently does nothing, when planting bombs seems like it should do something.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
iTrials.
@bpphantom
The Defenders of Paragon
KGB Special Section 8
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)