Level 53 and weaker than a Hellion

Good thought!

So don't complain about the mechanics? Don't complain about the writing? Go play something else?

Very constructive and surely an attitude that will contribute to this game's longevity.

I'm not sure what the devs feel is worth their time. More importantly though, this thread and many others should be an indicator that they need to work on their presentation. If they don't feel its worthwhile to revamp things, they need to be better attuned going forward.

Well considering I have characters whose only powers are that they're very good at swinging around swords or hitting people get blasted head-on with full-auto from a Council troop, I don't feel the need that they should instantly take a dirtnap. This isn't that kind of game and the mechanics work fine for the kind of game that it's supposed to be.

You'll remember in Call of Duty, if you get shot by a headon full auto, you die. Instantly. No hit points or health bars to pad your survival. It sounds like that's the kind of experience you want.

Except that (mostly) it's been liveable with up til now. Sure, inconsistencies sometimes and often clunky but this is just so dreadful it completely jars and really taints not just the mission but the writing of the Incarnates generally.

"You got to dig it to dig it, you dig?"
Thelonious Monk

Those kinds of subs back then didn't submerge unless they really had to or their mission required it, if I remember my history correctly. Indy just held on and hoped that they didn't have to! Lucky for him, they didn't.

They were faster under diesel power while on the surface than diesel submerged or battery submerged due to still having a ship-like design and not the torpedo-like design of modern subs.

What? Just because you now have even bigger super powers? Narratively, you may be "godly" but in the end of the day, a hit point is still a hit point.

and three rocks and they're all gone! That's why it's so stupid

"You got to dig it to dig it, you dig?"
Thelonious Monk

Context is a big problem, yes. We never really get a sense that "I can beat this guy up but not that guy, so this guy is weaker than that guy and I'm somewhere in the middle. But if I beat up that guy and he can beat up this guy, then I'm stronger than both of them." In a lot of ways, a curb stomp battle is NECESSARY in order to provide the context which tells us how powerful we are in practical terms.

I actually really think Dragon Ball Z is a good example here. They had their "power levels" which an enemy could read with a machine directly off his opponent. At the start, Goku's power level being over 9000 is so unbelievable that Vegeta actually crushes his scouter over it. By the time Goku shows up again, his power level has risen to 150 000, I believe, and he can double or quadruple it for short bursts. Which is a shame, because Freeza starts off with over half a million's worth of power level standing still, and goes so much stronger we kind of start losing track at that point.

This is a failed system, and Akira realised this pretty early on. You can keep upping people's "numbers" till the cows come home, but that's not what makes them strong. What makes them strong is who they can beat and how easily they can beat him. Irrespective of power levels, we know Freeza is an impossibly powerful monster that Goku just barely defeats. A few episodes later he shows up on Earth, and future Trunks cuts him to bits with nary an effort. That's context. We know how strong who is based on how well who does in a battle against who. Even without power levels, we still have context.

Trying to use numbers in place of practical representations of power is a mistake, because then you get a level 54 civilian taking out a level 50 hero with a rock. Yes, in terms of pure numbers, it works, but that doesn't make it good presentation. We should be considered strong not based on the orange numbers we can produce, but based on who we can beat and who can't beat us.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Issue 23: The Coming Storm Arrives!

First Hero: Stop or I shall unleash my Nova upon you!

Battalion: *sneers*

Second Hero: Stop or I shall devastate you with my Inferno!

Battalion: *laughs*

Charlie Brown: I got a rock.

Battalion: *flees*




Well, THAT sure was a fast arc!

It happens when their egos are sufficient to accommodate the volume of opinions of the vast majority of people.

Ha! Thank you, Guy!

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Problem with this reasoning is: Numbers are all computers know. It's how they communicate. And admit it or not, but you're playing this game on a computer.

What Sam is saying here is that the presentation should reinforce the numbers, not undermine them.

Per the mechanics, we are effectively being de-powered by the Seers. The presentation should support that. Someone who doesn't even play, just looking at the screen should be able to say, "those rocks are hurting because you are being de-powered by those creepy floating ladies".

Not "how are those rocks hurting you when you are a giant robot?"

They do, they're just not smart about it.

Those opinions will grow with the vast majority of people not dependent on the egos of a few

It's called free thinking!

I'll debate this. Name your right wing extremist teabugger forum!

Yes, I want both this and the reverse. If the mechanics are intended to make us numerically weak, then the artwork, writing and animations should support this. If we're supposed to be weakened and the civilians strengthened, I should be able to understand this by a casual glance at the situation without having infer what the conceptual intention was behind the numbers.

The reverse of this is also relevant. When we have a certain concept, writing and presentation in mind, then the numbers should reinforce this. If the concept here is that people are supposed to win the hearts and minds of the people of Praetoria, who are weak in mind and body, then the numbers should reflect that. The people should be easy to kill and mostly harmless, and it should be impossible to win without having their support.

Computers are based on numbers, yes, but then painting is based on chemistry, sculpture on geology and television on optics. But objectively speaking, computers are just a tool for the creation of art, and it is this artwork which must use the mechanics of its chosen medium to create a greater concept than just "numbers." Ultimately, mechanics are not the game. Mechanics exist to give life to the concept behind the game, and to make the player enjoy the process. One of the coolest things I've done in Portal 2 is to physically hand a cube to my co-op partner without employing any complex tricks. Just a simple handover. I'm sure the "numbers" to make this work were complex, but they were done well enough to make the exchange both immersive and satisfying.

And when the "numbers" become a limiting factor, then the concept should work around that. In Silent Hill, the old PSX couldn't support the kind of draw distance that would be needed to render the actual town. Instead of trying to hide that, the developers used the limited draw distance to represent the oppressive fog that permeates the town and actually gives it the creepy atmosphere the franchise is famous for.

"Numbers" are not an excuse. The entire point of the business of game development is to use numbers to create something more. When developers fail to do so, that's a failure of game design.

Let me rephrase that: I have a big problem when people claim to represent ME when they never asked for my opinion or even know who I am.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Beautifully said!

The rocks should work like Phantom Wounds with full HP recharge instead of partial. The battle is for the hearts and minds of Praetoria and Phantom Wounds could be an extrapolation of how much the public hates you and the Scryers take that hate and channel it making it capable of grievous perceived harm.

With another level, the rocks should become something more threatening, gaining different graphics when they're picked up. The more Seers present, the more "wrong" the stuff they are hurling at the PC's.

Well, sure, from a company resources perspective it makes more sense to concentrate on the upcoming content, in the hopes it will add more happy to the equation, than to revamp existing content just to remove some of the unhappy. Tweaking a trial, as they did for Keyes, is one thing, but a complete rewrite is something else entirely. Personally, I don't think eliminating the citizens as a physical threat to characters would be deleterious to the trial experience, so they might as well change the rock throwing to a purely cosmetic/graphical representation of low popular opinion, and just eliminate the damage component. It's only a band-aid, to be sure, but it would be easy to implement and would at least insure that future Incarnates don't walk into the trial expecting to feel like, well, Incarnates of the Gods, and leave with the same WTF feeling we all have.

Ultimately, though, if the devs show us that they've learned their lesson, so to speak, in the form of new trials that are better designed, then I don't mind writing TPN off as the oddball trial that we just laugh over and exploit for the threads and merits.