Does Statesman deserve a potential killing off? I don't agree
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2011-12-13 22:16 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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The arc itself doesn't have Statesman in it, so it can't really alter your opinion of Statesman. I mention the arc only to demonstrate that the Smoke and Mirrors events are canonical, which implies the events in the comic book are likely canonical as well, and not easily dismissed as "not in the game." |
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Ah, that was not clear to me. I certainly wouldn't be familiar with the comic, as I deemed it not worth pursuing beyond the one issue I read. I may seek out the arc in Ouroboros, though if the player takes the place of Statesman I suspect it won't alter my stated view of Statesman.
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Another touchstone is the Cyrus Thompson statue in Kings Row, which is dedicated at the end of the Smoke and Mirrors story arc in the comic book and was added to the game presumably as a canonical connection to that story, or possibly because they tricked Hickman into accepting that instead of actual payment for his work.
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Wasn't there a throw-away character in the new Tutorial who's entire SCHTICK was absorbing powers?|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
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It's possible Statesman and/or Recluse may die, someone (us?) gets their power, and then they are resurrected. |
Aaanyway, Zwil's posting about "We want you to know this part of the story"... he's sounding a lot like how Malaise was being written in the last couple chapters. I'm gonna play through with the assumption that this is all a set up of some sort >=)
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
Judging by the fact that both Glacia and Infernia are contacts 5 and 7 for the Who Will Die story arc I think we can safely guess who is going to replace Statesman. After all, which OTHER Super Strength/Invulnerability Incarnate is there.
Though I'm hoping he claims back his sword he told a certain lady to 'hold onto' and thus becoming a Broadsword/Invunlerability Incarnate.
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If he returns, he'd darn well get his fantastic cape from the promotional art, the one that looks like it has a layer for each of the crosses on the flag, rather than the pre-printed one that looks like a silkscreened flag seen in the hero cape mission.|
Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU
Judging by the fact that both Glacia and Infernia are contacts 5 and 7 for the Who Will Die story arc I think we can safely guess who is going to replace Statesman. After all, which OTHER Super Strength/Invulnerability Incarnate is there.
Though I'm hoping he claims back his sword he told a certain lady to 'hold onto' and thus becoming a Broadsword/Invunlerability Incarnate. |
Also, I thought he used Energy Melee when not wielding his sword, but I may be mistaken.
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this is another important thing: if Hero One comes back, HE NEEDS EXCALIBUR. And Excalibur better get it's own unique model. I think this will do nicely:|
Originally Posted by Olantern
If he returns, he'd darn well get his fantastic cape from the promotional art, the one that looks like it has a layer for each of the crosses on the flag, rather than the pre-printed one that looks like a silkscreened flag seen in the hero cape mission.
Also, I thought he used Energy Melee when not wielding his sword, but I may be mistaken. |
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Is it posted (legally) online? If not, it's unlikely that I will read it. For me, the game's story, such as it is, is defined within the game rather than by the City of Heroes 'Expanded Universe'.
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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
The arc itself is crap compared to the actual comic. READ THE ACTUAL COMIC!
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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...They're all on the City of Heroes website. Here.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Is it posted (legally) online? If not, it's unlikely that I will read it. For me, the game's story, such as it is, is defined within the game rather than by the City of Heroes 'Expanded Universe'.
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Ah, thankee. I think I might've known that already in a bygone age. |
Originally Posted by Scythus
...They're all on the City of Heroes website. Here.
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The story arc in question is a pretty good read, although Statesman comes off as a bit of an aloof jerk at the onset. He briefly shows a glimmer of 'being in touch' at the end, though.
For me, the only Phalanx member I really liked in the story was Citadel.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Troy Hickman has talked about that in the past. He was taking a handoff of a Statesman character that, shall we charitably say, had been depicted as having issues "working well with others." He thought he could fulcrum off of that to take States in a different direction. |
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
The story arc in question is a pretty good read, although Statesman comes off as a bit of an aloof jerk at the onset. He briefly shows a glimmer of 'being in touch' at the end, though.
For me, the only Phalanx member I really liked in the story was Citadel. |
There are two standout points in Hickman's depiction of Statesman:
First, the way Statesman relates to the others in the midst of their worst nightmares, and the telling content of his own. Not only was that very moving, it set the stage for a major shift in the presentation of Statesman. It was pretty much discarded by subsequent writers.
Second is a SPOILER. Stop here, as I shall discuss the very end of the arc.
Cyrus realizes he is moments from death. Statesman cradles Cyrus's head and shoulders up from the ground.
Cyrus: Is it okay? Did you manage to stop them?
Statesman: No sir, we didn't. But you DID.
I have lauded Hickman's skill with dialogue a number of times, but that right there is the crown jewel.
The subsequent dedication of the Cyrus Thompson statue, with further rehabilitation of Statesman, a great speech by Manticore and a wonderful inscription on the statue, is a brilliant finale.
There is no way to translate that to the CoH game. The Ouroboros arc comes as close as can be done, but it can never capture what Hickman does there, especially with Statesman.
And yes, his interpretation of Citadel was also wonderful.
And also chucked out the window summarily.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
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Ha! I got paid for the comic, but not for the arc; that's just because I love the game. And the Cyrus statue came as a complete, but very moving, surprise to me. I'm hoping that when I kick the bucket myself, they'll put a statue of me smack-dab in the middle of Frostfire's base, to taunt him for all the thousands of times he's killed me in game.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The arc itself doesn't have Statesman in it, so it can't really alter your opinion of Statesman. I mention the arc only to demonstrate that the Smoke and Mirrors events are canonical, which implies the events in the comic book are likely canonical as well, and not easily dismissed as "not in the game."
Another touchstone is the Cyrus Thompson statue in Kings Row, which is dedicated at the end of the Smoke and Mirrors story arc in the comic book and was added to the game presumably as a canonical connection to that story, or possibly because they tricked Hickman into accepting that instead of actual payment for his work. |
Troy Hickman - So proud to have contributed to and played in this wonderful CoH universe
This is what happens when Sephiroth gets to murder Princess Peach...
Now don't get me wrong, Final Fantasy VII is probably my favorite game ever, and I love it like no other. I still want to kick Sephiroth's butt everytime I hear his name. Mario 64, however, was the most pleasant, rewarding game I'll ever play, bar none, and everytime I think back to it I can't help but grin like an idiot. All I did was jump around nd slide down sewer drains while trying to rescue a mushroom princess from a turtle, but I just can't get past how wonderful it felt. That said, both were awesome games, but a crossover between the two would have been horrible. And yet, against all logic, that's exactly what's happening here.
Sephiroth murdered Princess Peach, and a little bird told me he's going for Mario next. Aeris just found out Luigi's cheating on her, and killed Toad in a mad fit. In the meantime, Cloud's doing nothing but watch from the sidelines, he can't do anything but watch...
I adored Jack Emmert's Paragon City, the place where everything goes right or serendipity takes over, just as I loved Matt Miller's Praetoria, that dark, gritty and morally challenging 1984 wasteland, but sometimes when two worlds collide all that's left is one big ugly mess.
Does anyone still feel like a hero in Paragon City? I mean, at least Cyrus went down fighting, Alexis just let herself be kidnapped and wacked without lifting a finger. She's Miss Liberty, for crying out loud! And what's with Sister Psycho executing Malaise in front of my toon while he does nothing? Statesman's death might create alot of vigilantes, but it may also make at least one hero hang his cape.
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Sorry, Jack, I no longer believe this is true. Paragon City as you left it is dead. Here's your badge back.
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Zem: don't get too frustrated. The gaming industry has had great success in recent years executing Player Punches... that is, hits aimed at the PLAYER instead of (just) the character. That's what's happening here, and while I don't expect it all to be "just a dream" or anything like that, we're up against someone who uses your worst nightmares against you and is Genre-Savvy at that. Mark my words: Malaise is not dead, and there's a lot more here going on than what people believe.
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
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We'll see. Thanks for trying to cheer me up |
Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
Zem: don't get too frustrated. The gaming industry has had great success in recent years executing Player Punches... that is, hits aimed at the PLAYER instead of (just) the character. That's what's happening here, and while I don't expect it all to be "just a dream" or anything like that, we're up against someone who uses your worst nightmares against you and is Genre-Savvy at that. Mark my words: Malaise is not dead, and there's a lot more here going on than what people believe.
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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
Actually, based on a comment from David Nakayama, or what I can infer from it, the reason Statesman is being killed off is because out of all of them HE'S the one that's supposed to be invincible. The rest of the Phalanx are tough, but storywise, you could kill all of them except Citadel with a bullet to the head, and even Citadel might be forced to shutdown.
Personally, I do agree that it's a bit of a shame that instead of choosing to better write and develop Statesman, they choose to kill him off. But at the same time I understand the reasoning behind it, which is: This guy was a symbol of the pinnacle of power in the game and now he won't be, that's the player's role. So ironically, Statesman was chosen to die because he is the toughest. But on the plus side, if we look at the guy in a more positive and tragic light, he's earned this, after more than a hundred years of life. A life that has seen him lose countless loved ones and friends, lose the ability to relate to his fellow man, and every day lives in fear that the Well of Furies could take him over and drive him to slaughter everyone for a cheap laugh, he's earned his rest. |
This right here, Statesman is toughest in the Phalanx, he is the only incarnate. He's the Superman of CoH. This is Paragon's version of DC's Death of Superman. Is he gonna come back? We don't know, I personally think he will. They might not actually kill off Marcus Cole, they might just kill off the Statesman persona.
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I have to agree that Miss Liberty's death could have been handled much better than it was. Rather than have us beat up Manticore, why not let Miss L go down swinging in a fight against our villains? |
Originally Posted by N3cro
This right here, Statesman is toughest in the Phalanx, he is the only incarnate. He's the Superman of CoH. This is Paragon's version of DC's Death of Superman. Is he gonna come back? We don't know, I personally think he will. They might not actually kill off Marcus Cole, they might just kill off the Statesman persona.
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I just hope that Statesman gets a better death which is about all you can hope for.
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Or actually be creative and let Meg get into the middle of the fight, yelling "Get away from my mother, you villain!" and take the death-blow herself. That would have been tragic, and much more likely to elicit an emotional response from the players.|
Originally Posted by BlueBattler
I have to agree that Miss Liberty's death could have been handled much better than it was. Rather than have us beat up Manticore, why not let Miss L go down swinging in a fight against our villains?
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| I just hope that Statesman gets a better death which is about all you can hope for. |
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If I remember right from episode 3 of Who will die?, Miss Liberty didn't have any powers at the time of that mission. She has been doing high powered diplomacy since she lost her powers, but no more super powers. She can't go down fighting. Unless you think you can negotiate with crazies like Malaise and Mr I want to summon Rularuu.
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Originally Posted by BlueBattler
I have to agree that Miss Liberty's death could have been handled much better than it was. Rather than have us beat up Manticore, why not let Miss L go down swinging in a fight against our villains?
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Honestly, if Psyche hadn't have killed Malaise, I would've. She did everything she could to stand up for him and support him, and he tries to kill her for...hell, what reason DID he try to kill her for?|
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
Does anyone still feel like a hero in Paragon City? I mean, at least Cyrus went down fighting, Alexis just let herself be kidnapped and wacked without lifting a finger. She's Miss Liberty, for crying out loud! And what's with Sister Psycho executing Malaise in front of my toon while he does nothing? Statesman's death might create alot of vigilantes, but it may also make at least one hero hang his cape.
Sorry, Jack, I no longer believe this is true. Paragon City as you left it is dead. Here's your badge back. |
I'm sorry, he was past the point of redemption right then.
I really hope this isn't just a Death of Superman type fiasco where Statesman dies but then he splits up into the 5 Stateclones (one of whom is Back Alley Brawler, now cosplaying as Statesman and becoming the STF contact in IP) until he gets magic'd back to life.
If NCSoft ever decides to invest in Positron enough to make a CoX2 that could be a good breaking point--No Statesman and no Lord Recluse (dead because of the big target painted on his helmet by the Destined One prophecy that he seeks to bring to fruition in order to conquer the world)...neither of those developer personas have anything to do with the franchise anymore.
I haven't read the entire thread, but has everyone forgotten that Statesman has died once before? Manticore killed him at the end of TopCow's City of Heroes Issue #2. Manticore took him to Numina who helped him bring Statesman back. How can it be so hard to do it again?
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You don't remember correctly, all that Miss Liberty (Alex) lost was the Girdle of Hera (which she gave to her daughter), a temp power that Ms. Liberty (Meg) uses in LRST to boost up her resistances.|
Originally Posted by Pitho
If I remember right from episode 3 of Who will die?, Miss Liberty didn't have any powers at the time of that mission. She has been doing high powered diplomacy since she lost her powers, but no more super powers. She can't go down fighting. Unless you think you can negotiate with crazies like Malaise and Mr I want to summon Rularuu.
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| (...) Inheriting the sacred girdle from her mother and the superhuman abilities of the gods from her father (...) |
Even Megan (Statesman's granddaughter and 3rd generation incarnate) was shown lifting up cars above her head at the age of seven in the FP novel, so I just find it illogical for Alexis to simply shiver with shaking knees as she's being kidnapped.
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Originally Posted by Issen
Honestly, if Psyche hadn't have killed Malaise, I would've. I'm sorry, he was past the point of redemption right then.
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Sister Psyche didn't kill him in self defense, she did it in a mad fit. I sympathise (Alexis was her friend, after all), but at the very least, she should have her hero licence suspended until she gets her head back together. And my hero was there, he should have stopped Tilman from doing something rash.
On another note, Vigilante toons would have liked the chance to kill Malaise themselves and, again, the game didn't allow it. I keep seeing the SSAs horribly biased towards redside... whoever's writing the blueside part of the SSAs needs to get his act together.
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Originally Posted by Issen
She did everything she could to stand up for him and support him, and he tries to kill her for...hell, what reason DID he try to kill her for?
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Does Statesman deserve a potential killing off?
Deserve's got nothin' to do with it.
Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie
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NOPE.avi|
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
My guess is that he felt like the only person who was acknowleging Aurora-Psyche's existence, and felt the need to "rescue" her. A reasonable person would find those concerns valid, had Jean voiced them in an articulate manner rather than bad word poetry, and might even find a solution to the mind-entity's dilemma - maybe get it a synthesized clockwork body or a clone of Aurora. Of course, letting Aurora-Psyche take over Tilman's body is out of the question, but locking it up inside Tilman's mind is no solution either.
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Read the souvenir you got at the end of the arc. Malaise didn't want to really help the Aurora-Psyche, he simply wanted to destroy the real Sister Psyche and replace her with something insane and evil because he wanted glory as an ARTIST than a superhero/villain. He also would not have let the situation end without his death, one way or another because that's part of how he was hoping it would go, he was hoping as an artist death would make him immortal.
In the end, Malaise was definitely far gone, anything and everything he did was a personal quest for glory and to be recognized.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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The arc itself is crap compared to the actual comic. READ THE ACTUAL COMIC!
The developer who attempted to translate the comicbook into the game arc lost out on a lot of things. Mandy was at Icon when she was kidnapped, the ritual took place outside, Breakneck actually beat Baron Zoria on his own before his heart gave out, and Baron zoria hit the entire phalanx with an irresistible sleep that put them into their worst nightmares.
YOU CAN @#$%ING SEE THAT IN THE MISSION ARC BECAUSE IT'S CRAP.
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