Does Statesman deserve a potential killing off? I don't agree
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2011-12-13 22:16 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Actually, Breakneck died because the Circle of Thorns are evil and powerful. If the Phalanx hadn't got involved, never existed, or instead decided that day to watch Jersey Shore, Cyrus Thompson would still be just as dead, along with probably most of the rest of the world (including the CoT; I don't know why they think a demon would want to keep around a bunch of goofs who look like ZZ Top in their nightshirts).|
Originally Posted by Venture
I wasn't moved. I facepalmed my way all through that story. Breakneck died because the Freedumb (sic) Phalanx was bloody incompetent.
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As far as Statesman's death, I don't know what to say about any of it, as I just learned of it about six minutes ago. Let me eat a popsicle and mull it over...
Troy Hickman - So proud to have contributed to and played in this wonderful CoH universe
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THANK. YOU.|
Originally Posted by TroyHickman
Actually, Breakneck died because the Circle of Thorns are evil and powerful. If the Phalanx hadn't got involved, never existed, or instead decided that day to watch Jersey Shore, Cyrus Thompson would still be just as dead, along with probably most of the rest of the world (including the CoT; I don't know why they think a demon would want to keep around a bunch of goofs who look like ZZ Top in their nightshirts).
As far as Statesman's death, I don't know what to say about any of it, as I just learned of it about six minutes ago. Let me eat a popsicle and mull it over... |
I am so sick of villain apologists.
Stop blaming the hero for other people's evil, folks. Has Spiderman taught us NOTHING!?
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
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Um, yes.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
So, who's supposed to be our Superman/Thor/Captain America now?
We have an "Ultimate Evil" in Recluse, but we'll be losing his foil. Who's supposed to fill that void? Us? |
Frankly, Recluse hasn't been "the Ultimate Evil" for many issues now. We were the ones who discovered the truth about the Rikti and stopped the second war, not Statesman. We are the ones going into Praetoria, not Statesman. Even when Recluse was up to his evil schemes, who stopped him, and who stood around on a boat?
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| I'm also afraid that this is just to make a void for Emperor Cole to fill when Praetoria goes belly-up and he and his fellow refugees need somewhere to stay while his biggest failure tears up his home. So now we'll be going from working with a guy who genuinely was trying to make things better to a true jerk who may or may not be trying to conquer this world "for his people." |
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Originally Posted by TroyHickman
Actually, Breakneck died because the Circle of Thorns are evil and powerful. If the Phalanx hadn't got involved, never existed, or instead decided that day to watch Jersey Shore, Cyrus Thompson would still be just as dead, along with probably most of the rest of the world
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Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
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No, it never occurred to me to give them maxi-pads...damn...
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
They didn't even think to pack breakfrees.
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Troy Hickman - So proud to have contributed to and played in this wonderful CoH universe
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No, it's pretty easy. We're all the star of our own story. |
Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
Who's supposed to fill that void?
Us? We've already covered that our characters don't exactly count, since it's either ALL of us or none of us (and one is easier to write than the other) |
Each character exists in their own world where they are the ultimate hero. Those worlds overlap, but that doesn't matter. As far as you're concerned, you're the star.
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Or, as I call it, Thursday... |
Originally Posted by Vox Populi
No, it's pretty easy. We're all the star of our own story.
Each character exists in their own world where they are the ultimate hero. Those worlds overlap, but that doesn't matter. As far as you're concerned, you're the star. |
Troy Hickman - So proud to have contributed to and played in this wonderful CoH universe
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That explains why I never got the hang of being a star.
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Originally Posted by TroyHickman
Or, as I call it, Thursday...
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Don't make deals with Mephisto.
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Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
THANK. YOU.
I am so sick of villain apologists. Stop blaming the hero for other people's evil, folks. Has Spiderman taught us NOTHING!? |
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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And here I thought it was Friday...|
Originally Posted by TroyHickman
Or, as I call it, Thursday...
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Friday...
Gotta get down...
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
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After giving this some more thought, and reading ZWill's insistence that this is how the story was always intended...|
Originally Posted by Chyll
When watching a movie or reading a book I never - NEVER - skip ahead to read a key point so I can go back and then continue with that revealed nugget in order to make the story more rich and fulfilling.
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I'm like you, I don't go to the end of the mystery first, that defeats the whole purpose of reading a mystery.
However...
In books and Movies/TV, some stories are actually written to let you know a key fact such as a death ahead of time, to keep you on the edge waiting for it.
Supernatural for instance will often show some predicament that Dean or Sam are in, only to revert to a week earlier for the actual show, building up to the finale when we get back to where we started.
As long as the story was intended to not have this be a shocker from the get go, I still have faith that it will deliver the same level of satisfaction.
While it's true that you and I and countless others don't like spoilers and almost feel cheated not getting to 'find it ourselves' the fact is apparently, this isn't really a spoiler, it's a key part of the narrative that we know ahead of time. I'm cool with that.
However, now I am hoping for some grand showdown/gesture between Cole and Stefan killing/sacrificing them both.
Thanks for reassuring us Z!
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Keep Calm & Chive On!
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You don't get down from an elephant; you get down from a duck...
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
And here I thought it was Friday...
Friday... Gotta get down... |
Troy Hickman - So proud to have contributed to and played in this wonderful CoH universe
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Doesn't most down we humans use come from geese?
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Originally Posted by TroyHickman
You don't get down from an elephant; you get down from a duck...
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Oh hey Troy. Welcome to the thread. |
Originally Posted by TroyHickman
You don't get down from an elephant; you get down from a duck...
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Sorry if I used your name in some of my replies, by the way. But quick, don your best Ward and Wests and help me fight an unwinnable battle.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
And here I thought it was Friday...
Friday... Gotta get down... |
You sully my thread, sir. I challenge you to a duel of internet memes at fifty paces.
And by internet memes, I mean measuring contest.
...Measuring Contest was a band I was in back in the 80's.
*ahem* Too much channelling of Mr. Ferguson.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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Apologies for snippage once more. |
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Admittedly, it is also selective reading on the part of the Statesman haters. It is a knee-jerk reaction to being told "this person is better than everyone else. You will respect and love him. You know he is awesome because everyone else loves him, except his enemies, and they don't count because they're evil and they only hate him because he's so awesome." The thing is, people have that same knee-jerk reaction every time they are told something like that. Then they start flinging around the term Mary Sue and wishing the character would undergo total existence failure. The harder you try to get people to like the character, the more they resist. Good writers realize that.
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I guess that's the advantage of my selective reading; I would never want to relate to or read about a thoroughly unlikeable character, yet I saw Statesman's potential, I suppose. But I'm from the Christopher Reeve Superman generation, so I always had that in the back of my mind, that this could be my in-game Superman and the mental image of him turning to my monitor and smiling always gave me goosebumps and a grin.
I am absolute and total sucker for the hero's hero. The guy you want to be like, the hero you'd stand by, no matter what. It's why I like Viggo Mortenson's Aragorn, Chris Reeve's Superman, Chris Evans' Captain America. To me, being like them makes you a better person yourself. I think Melancton and I are in the Troy Hickman depiction of Statesman camp, and all he had to do was write him like a real person.
Is it cheesy? Sure. Is it wishing for a bygone age? Sure. But in my mind, is it worth aspiring to? Absolutely.To paraphrase the wonderful David Tennant in Doctor Who: 'I loved you. All that running around in a faceplate and a funny cape saving the world? I loved that. You know what, Statesman? You were my Statesman.' I'll happily link the mini-episode of the original which is such fun, because it's how I feel about my most beloved characters.
Edit: I had to add I find incredible parallels between The Doctor and Statesman; living beyond the lives of all they care about...treated like a god by some, hated for their power by others...survivors of great conflicts and always, always trying to do the right thing, the best thing. Another reason I won't give up on the big guy. The Doctor wouldn't let me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szuP0oBZX4g
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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I would say something about "story/gameplay segregation," but even Prometheus points out that's basically what Statesman has been doing. In fact, a lot of the Incarnate content has been echoing all of the vitriolic snark that comes out of these forums.| Frankly, Recluse hasn't been "the Ultimate Evil" for many issues now. We were the ones who discovered the truth about the Rikti and stopped the second war, not Statesman. We are the ones going into Praetoria, not Statesman. Even when Recluse was up to his evil schemes, who stopped him, and who stood around on a boat? |
And a lot of players resume complaining that they're terrible stories.
Something seems ironic about that.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
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I can see Statesman having that sort of Superman-esque potential. But every time I've seen him he's come across more like Superman in Dark Knight Returns or in Kingdom Come. A Superman who has forgotten what Clark Kent is all about.
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Originally Posted by SuperOz
To paraphrase the wonderful David Tennant in Doctor Who: 'I loved you. All that running around in a faceplate and a funny cape saving the world? I loved that. You know what, Statesman? You were my Statesman.' I'll happily link the mini-episode of the original which is such fun, because it's how I feel about my most beloved characters.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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and thus, we encounter one of the greatest pitfalls of writing: integrating memes into the core story.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
I would say something about "story/gameplay segregation," but even Prometheus points out that's basically what Statesman has been doing. In fact, a lot of the Incarnate content has been echoing all of the vitriolic snark that comes out of these forums.
And a lot of players resume complaining that they're terrible stories. Something seems ironic about that. |
Statesman's uselessness started off as a joke, like how we're always the ones to save him even though every character only does it once. But when people team with eachother and running alts, we end up saving him hundreds of times. Then there was the Statesman Task Force, and then a revamp of "A Hero's Hero" which kept the previous arc canon, bringing Statesman's status as useless up to three, which, to maybe players, is enough to write him off as a joke.
And finally the Development team got in on the joke, they started adding the joke to the story. And finally, the joke was all there was to Statesman.
His faceplate, meant to be reminiscent of a Corinthian helm had become a rainbow clown wig, his cape became his nose, and the Devs look at him now and realize the only way to let Statesman preserve any dignity is to kill him. But they forget the playerbase will continue to piss on his grave from here until the end of the game.
As a side note: I wouldn't take Prometheus's view of Statesman without a grain of salt. Statesman is the Incarnate of Zeus, Prometheus was bound to a rock and had his gizzards eaten by a vulture everyday for eons by Zeus himself. And let's nto forget, Prometheus is portrayed as every bit the dick people tend to view Statesman, people just are happier to makeout with Prometheus' lap because he claims to offer them power.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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I'm actually glad they are killing Statesman off - for perhaps different reasons than you might expect.
Primarily, Statesman is the symbol of the "old" CoH - the pre-Incarnate, pre-Freedom CoH, where updates were less frequent and options were more limited than we have now. Statesman symbolises the old guard, and arguably remains a legacy symbol of the game's original developers.
Also, I genuinely believe he was written poorly, never reaching his potential, and without pathos. To "reboot" him would be a very difficult task, and there would still be many who saw the "stuffed shirt" rather than the iconic hero and leader. That's not the fault of the character, it's one of the problems of having many writers who didn't necessarily "get" him. But being the leader, the "invincible" member of the Freedom Phalanx is a very tough ask, so it's hard to blame different writers & editors for that.
Paradoxically, it's his impending death that's creating renewed interest in him, and that tells a story all its own. That he only now becomes a figure of sympathy amongst some of his audience is telling - so he needs to die, to survive.
The one critical factor in this story is this: He has to die nobly, with dignity, and against the odds probably in a battle to the finish that will turn the tide in our favour, because of his ultimate sacrifice.
Then, once he is gone, we can stand under the Statesman statue in Atlas and remember him fondly.
Thelonious Monk
They aren't going to kill him off.
He'll retire.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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You need to go back and watch those again. The only Batman movies Tim Burton was involved in were the first two, with Michael Keaton playing the title role. He was far from an "insane psychopath vigilante murderer" in them. In fact, I can't think of a single person Batman has actually killed in any of the movies, including the most recent ones. He refused to save Ra's al Ghul's life in Batman Begins, but that's not quite the same thing as murder, since Ra's caused the situation that led to his death himself. He basically just let Ra's reap what he sowed rather than intervene (he also knew he would never remain in prison, he was too well connected). |
Originally Posted by Melancton
For me, Batman is somewhere between the extremes of the mocking dufus of the 1960s TV series and the insane psychopath vigilante murderer of Tim Burton's movies.
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I personally never had a problem with Statesman as a character. Sure, he's kind of a generic patriotic Superman clone, but there are worse characters in comics.
Power level-wise, I place him somewhere between Captain America and Superman, which is probably about where he was meant to be. He's tougher and stronger than Cap, but not as virtually omnipotent as Superman is often portrayed.
People call him boring, but how exciting would you be if you'd been saving the world for 80 years? Sure, he's still physically in his 30s, but the guy has the mind of a man whose been alive for over 100 years. He was given longevity, that doesn't mean he was given the mental capacity to endure it. Neither Cap nor Supes have had to deal with watching everyone they love grow old and die while they remained young (Cap's loved ones did, but he wasn't there to see it) I'm sure Marcus knew he was going to outlive his kids, the shock to him was in how it went down.
To be honest, the guy is probably looking forward to his impending death. It's the first chance he's had to relax in decades.
You know who is going to be the most pissed off if Statesman doesn't die?
Statesman himself.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I would direct you to 'Smoke and Mirrors', then by Mr. Hickman. It may change your view. |
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
I can see Statesman having that sort of Superman-esque potential. But every time I've seen him he's come across more like Superman in Dark Knight Returns or in Kingdom Come. A Superman who has forgotten what Clark Kent is all about.
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S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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You know, Claws, that's actually a really nice way of looking at the situation.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
You need to go back and watch those again. The only Batman movies Tim Burton was involved in were the first two, with Michael Keaton playing the title role. He was far from an "insane psychopath vigilante murderer" in them. In fact, I can't think of a single person Batman has actually killed in any of the movies, including the most recent ones. He refused to save Ra's al Ghul's life in Batman Begins, but that's not quite the same thing as murder, since Ra's caused the situation that led to his death himself. He basically just let Ra's reap what he sowed rather than intervene (he also knew he would never remain in prison, he was too well connected).
I personally never had a problem with Statesman as a character. Sure, he's kind of a generic patriotic Superman clone, but there are worse characters in comics. Power level-wise, I place him somewhere between Captain America and Superman, which is probably about where he was meant to be. He's tougher and stronger than Cap, but not as virtually omnipotent as Superman is often portrayed. People call him boring, but how exciting would you be if you'd been saving the world for 80 years? Sure, he's still physically in his 30s, but the guy has the mind of a man whose been alive for over 100 years. He was given longevity, that doesn't mean he was given the mental capacity to endure it. Neither Cap nor Supes have had to deal with watching everyone they love grow old and die while they remained young (Cap's loved ones did, but he wasn't there to see it) I'm sure Marcus knew he was going to outlive his kids, the shock to him was in how it went down. To be honest, the guy is probably looking forward to his impending death. It's the first chance he's had to relax in decades. You know who is going to be the most pissed off if Statesman doesn't die? Statesman himself. |
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
Statesman and the crew have not been up to par anyways. For the most part we are the ones doing everything. We are city of heroes. So if he dies none of my characters are going to shed a tear. Might get upset if Sister P. or Mynx dies but thats only because they are hawt.
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So, who's supposed to be our Superman/Thor/Captain America now?
We have an "Ultimate Evil" in Recluse, but we'll be losing his foil.
Who's supposed to fill that void?
Us?
We've already covered that our characters don't exactly count, since it's either ALL of us or none of us (and one is easier to write than the other).
Frankly, I wish it weren't Statesman who was dying. I don't feel he ever deserved it. Like the rest of the characters, he needed more writing, more fleshing out.
I'm also afraid that this is just to make a void for Emperor Cole to fill when Praetoria goes belly-up and he and his fellow refugees need somewhere to stay while his biggest failure tears up his home. So now we'll be going from working with a guy who genuinely was trying to make things better to a true jerk who may or may not be trying to conquer this world "for his people."
Whee.
Poor Statesman. Had to go just when the writing was starting to get really good. Watch your head! The bridges be droppin' out here...
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.