Does Statesman deserve a potential killing off? I don't agree
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2011-12-13 22:16 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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There's been a few shows that'll show a glimpse into something that's happened further along into the episode; usually right before a commercial break -like NCIS. The whole premise of The Dead Zone was based on viewer-targeted fractured precog (as was That's So Raven, lol).
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Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
After giving this some more thought, and reading ZWill's insistence that this is how the story was always intended...
I'm like you, I don't go to the end of the mystery first, that defeats the whole purpose of reading a mystery. However... In books and Movies/TV, some stories are actually written to let you know a key fact such as a death ahead of time, to keep you on the edge waiting for it. Supernatural for instance will often show some predicament that Dean or Sam are in, only to revert to a week earlier for the actual show, building up to the finale when we get back to where we started. As long as the story was intended to not have this be a shocker from the get go, I still have faith that it will deliver the same level of satisfaction. While it's true that you and I and countless others don't like spoilers and almost feel cheated not getting to 'find it ourselves' the fact is apparently, this isn't really a spoiler, it's a key part of the narrative that we know ahead of time. I'm cool with that. However, now I am hoping for some grand showdown/gesture between Cole and Stefan killing/sacrificing them both. Thanks for reassuring us Z! |
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/minor sidetrack|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
You need to go back and watch those again. The only Batman movies Tim Burton was involved in were the first two, with Michael Keaton playing the title role. He was far from an "insane psychopath vigilante murderer" in them. In fact, I can't think of a single person Batman has actually killed in any of the movies, including the most recent ones. He refused to save Ra's al Ghul's life in Batman Begins, but that's not quite the same thing as murder, since Ra's caused the situation that led to his death himself. He basically just let Ra's reap what he sowed rather than intervene (he also knew he would never remain in prison, he was too well connected).
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Hey Claws, thanks for your comment. As it turns out, I may be exactly with you in that I really like Christian Bale's Batman.
I specifically mentioned the Tim Burton movies as being the extreme. "Batman Begins," IMHO, hits the sweet spot for the character. While a tad dark, Batman is still ultimately a noble hero.
In the Burton vision, Bruce Wayne sleeps upside down like a bat, sends the Batmobile into Axis Chemicals to blow it and dozens of the Joker's minions to Kingdom Come and then rips off his hood to tell the clearly insane and murderous Catwoman, "We are alike. There is no difference between you and me." Yeah, okay, Tim, I GET IT ALREADY! Bruce Wayne snapped like a dry twig when his parents were murdered and now he is a bat, wreaking Gothic vengeance, blah blah blah. George Clooney was back to the mocking Batman with a Batcard, which he did not leave home without. Val Kilmer had the best portrayal of the first four flicks, but his film was burdened by the over-the-top acting by the villains, etc.
The bone I have to pick with Christian Bale is dropping the crime boss off the balcony, which I think was out of character with the first film. Your mileage may vary, but that is my take on the films; I do not like Burton's work. In fact, NOT killing Ra's al Ghul, which you cite, was a clear break in my view from the Burton vision and put Bale at #1.
/minor sidetrack
We now return to your regularly scheduled thread.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
We can't truly replace Statesman; we can't be on the next box, on the website banner, in the prerendered movies (more of these, please), etc. I suppose Positron (or Foreshadow) can take on that role, or maybe even Ms. Liberty.
But I suppose being without our Superman expy will make us a bit more unique as a comic book universe.
Story Arcs I created:
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The Devs (specifically Second Measure) said there'll be zero change to the game advertising on any level. Take that for what you will.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
Something that may be relevant from Prometheus.
Spoiler warning! If you want to learn this from Prometheus yourself, don't read below.
This is in response to the question of what happens to the powers of someone who has links to the well, dies and is resurrected.
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Yellow emphasis is mine.| If, however, the death is less than permanent, as happened a few years ago with Statesman, the powers return to the individual upon their return to life. As long as the powers wielded by the deceased have not been claimed by another, they can still be reclaimed by their previous holder. |
It's possible Statesman and/or Recluse may die, someone (us?) gets their power, and then they are resurrected.
I'm not sure this fits well into any of the other information we have, such as the lack of marketing information changes, but I thought it was interesting in the context of the announced death.
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Originally Posted by TroyHickman
Actually, Breakneck died because the Circle of Thorns are evil and powerful. If the Phalanx hadn't got involved, never existed, or instead decided that day to watch Jersey Shore, Cyrus Thompson would still be just as dead, along with probably most of the rest of the world (including the CoT; I don't know why they think a demon would want to keep around a bunch of goofs who look like ZZ Top in their nightshirts).
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With regard to the thread in general, it's nice that someone likes Statesman, and I agree with many things SuperOz has stated (though not all of them). Unfortunately, I don't think a character like Statesman can maintain sympathy from players, or even writers, over the long term in the Broadcast Yourself age.
The first problem arises from the attitudes of players and readers, the audience for Statesman. Statesman represents authority, and many players create characters who are outside of, or even hostile to, chains of authority, making them inherently unsympathetic to him. Most characters who are granted personalities by their players are to at least a slight degree player analogues. Those characters represent, on some level, their players' desires to be free of outwardly imposed dictates and instead pursue their own morality. Unfortunately, as the face of heroism, Statesman has come to represent those imposed moral dictates. Rather than embracing Statesman as a moral ally against "The System" of players' vicarious enemies (the corporate corruption of Crey, the militarism of Praetoria, the diabolism of the Banished Pantheon, etc.), they see him as another part of The System that their characters stand outside. (Interestingly, the Praetorian storyline could be seen as reworking the melodrama of CoH to focus on this tension rather than the good vs. evil one so many players seem to reject. It's for that reason that I can't understand why the players hate Praetoria so much, but that's a different thread.)
Sometimes, this tension manifests as cynicism with regard to the internal story ("Statesman is more bad than a villain because he invades the sovereign Rogue Isles!"), and sometimes it manifests as cynicism with regard to the writing itself ("Statesman is a bad character because the devs are bad writers because they say he's the most powerful hero, and saying someone other than my character is most powerful is dumb!"). Much as I tend to criticize this kind of attitude, even I've used it with regard to Statesman in my CoH stories. It's just a natural impulse in contemporary folks. (For more on distrust of authority in fiction and ways in which in skews perceptions of characters, look around for internet reading group discussions of Paradise Lost. There was one called "The Constant Reader" some years back that had particularly interesting coverage of this point.)
The second problem is similar but caused by Statesman's writers (and developers), not his audience. Players are not the only ones with issues about authority and proclaimed virtue. I'm convinced that some of the writers who've worked on Statesman have used him to work out their own issues with Superman-type characters, to the detriment of Statesman as a character of his own. Mark Waid, much as I like much of his work, seemed to me to be particularly guilty of this, and I see hints of it even in Robin Laws's Freedom Phalanx novel. In fact, the only writer I can think of offhand who didn't use Statesman this way at all is Troy Hickman. "Smoke and Mirrors" presents a Statesman who is sympathetic to the reader because he is, on some level, a writer analogue rather than something the writer is working against. Put much more simply, in that story, Statesman is a sympathetic viewpoint character. But few writers have used him that way, and players have dutifully adopted the more hostile portrayals used by the majority of writers.
There's a third issue, too. City of Heroes is a game, and that medium shapes the structure of its fiction. Many, though certainly not all, players want to "win" that game. They want to overcome every challenge it places in their path, including the challenge of making a character (in the sense of a bundle of electronic data, not in the sense of a character in fiction) as powerful and kitted-out as possible. Though this shouldn't necessarily have any effect on characterization, I think there's some bleed-through between game design and in-game fiction. That is, players not only want to defeat all the enemies on the map; they want the player character who did so to be recognized for making that effort. That is, after a long mission arc, players want to read, "You succeeded, $name! You saved the world! You're the best!", not, "You cleared out the warehouse, and some other guy saved the world! He's the best! But thanks anyway."
With that in mind, it's incredibly difficult to make a character like Statesman appealing. At the most basic level, his role is to be "the most powerful hero." Even though, like any good supporting character, he's far less important to the story than the protagonist (the player character), his power level causes a psychological disconnect for players. The player thinks, "I completed a Master of Lord Recluse Task Force on my fully-loaded Incarnate! My character can flatten anything in the game! So why am I still hearing about Statesman? My character's completed way more game tasks than him!" Essentially, the Achiever personality that lives inside all gamers, to one degree or another, is extending its goal from "I must beat everything and be the best!" to "My character must be acknowledged as the best!" As I implied, this attitude is inherent to the game world. No portrayal of Statesman, no matter how sympathetic or brilliant, can get around it.
Finally, of course, there's the lingering hostility to Jack Emmert that taints Statesman-the-character, due to the (confusing!) practice of assigning real-world people the handles of in-game characters. It doesn't help that Emmert was not good at dealing with fans. Worse, he tended to be perceived as a dictatorial authority on abstractions ... just like Statesman-the-character, as discussed above.
With all those things against him, it almost surprises me that Statesman has survived so long. And it's a testament to the strength of the heroic archetype that he still has fans. Personally, while I still have trouble understanding why the death would be announced in advance, I can't help agreeing with one of the posters above: for me, Statesman has always seemed like one weary immortal. It's nice to know he'll finally get some rest.
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Do I want him killed off?
No, not really.
Mostly because my first major exposure to the lore of the game was the CoX novels I picked up while I was waiting for my boxset to ship.
I admit, I've never read the comics that portrayed the Phalanx as a whole as incompetent, pretentious dickwads and such. So maybe I'm missing some of the reasons for the hate. But even then, I've never gotten the impression that States fits in the Superman slot. At least, the slot that most "deconstructions" give Superman of being an invulnerable god whose flaws mean he should be gotten rid of, because no flawed person deserves that much power.
But then, I got into comics with Marvel comics. And one of my favorite moments was a ways back when Spider-Man joined the Avengers for the first time. Spidey's always been a street-level type, compared to the Marvel U's premier fighting team. But there are moments in that arc where those premier heroes, those "signatures", if you will, would affirm that, yes, Peter deserved to be in the Avengers, and that they weren't any better than him.
That's always been the view I've taken of Statesman. As a benchmark to let you know when you've made it. When he starts looking to you as an equal, that's what you look for. You're not just one among thousands of faceless heroes anymore. You've made it to the big time, and the big names are calling on *you* because they can't handle it on their own. People would see this as "oh, well, they can't handle it on their own. Obviously they're incompetent." Or maybe you're asked in because *your* character is considered vital to the story. You're there to accomplish something. Do something the various NPCs couldn't. This doesn't mean they can't do anything at all. Just that the writers genuinely don't want us to be bored sitting around while NPCs do everything.
That Other MMO had an expansion that recently reached a climax, wherein you confront THE Big Bad, who has been as such for pretty much the entire game since the days before it *was* an MMO. You slog through his minions, destroy his generals, and generally prove that you *can* take him on.
And then he pops a super-power and kills you all in one shot, so an NPC can deliver the finishing blow.
Whatever faults in the writing for Statesman, they've never done that with him (Blue Steel, however...) Yet apparently the main reaction to this isn't even a *non*-reaction. There's the equivalent to cheering in the streets. It's the Wizard of Paragon with States as the Evil Tank of the East. I'm... unsure of why exactly States attracts such venom when he's barely *in* the game aside from a handful of arcs, and in most of those, you're *helping him* handle something *he can't*. There's no sense of being brought along as a tag along. They didn't have Manticore or Posi or Citadel do the deed because they're Freedom Phalanx and thus Better Than You. They had *you* do it because anything that could take States down needed The Best to pull him out of the fire, and that's you. Pretty much every arc I can think of with him in it is highlighting that you're as good or better.
Yet apparently that's not good enough. Apparently the collective skin is thin enough that Recluse being obsessed with his brother-in-law who he feels betrayed him, who he's spent the better part of a century trying to break down and defeat, who he sees as his own Sisyphian rock, and thus references by name instead of the PC... is an incalculable insult against our ego. Because of that *one line*. I swear, it's like you can hear the PCs screaming "YOU ARE GOING TO FEAR/LOVE ME!" while ignoring the fact that, aside from interrupting his master plan (and Recluse has had a *lot* of those), it's not personal to the Boss Spider when he punches you in the face. Pretty much *every* hero that isn't Statesman is just collateral damage to him at this point.
I dunno. If States dies and stays dead, I'm hoping this isn't an excuse to derail *another* hero into pissed off vigilanteism. But then, I'm also one of those people who likes Ms. Liberty too, so I've already got two strikes against me with regards to not "getting" the collective viewpoint of the CoX fanbase towards signatures that *dare* to get in *their* limelight.
...wait, crap. I rescue Infernia every time, and wait through her talking so the poor traumatized war survivor doesn't get killed two steps from getting home. That's three strikes against the collective "NPCs that everyone hates" bar.
I'm out.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
You're right: this whole issue is a money grab. We're going to be grabbing money from impatient people with money to burn and completionist complexes, and using it to make a better game for everyone, including the 99.9% of the rest of the playerbase that isn't going to be buying everything, multiple times, immediately upon release, and spending hundreds of dollars in the process.
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AHA!!!!!!|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Something that may be relevant from Prometheus...
...It's possible Statesman and/or Recluse may die, someone (us?) gets their power, and then they are resurrected. I'm not sure this fits well into any of the other information we have, such as the lack of marketing information changes, but I thought it was interesting in the context of the announced death. |
So... Statesman will die and pass his power on to the player so that they can face Tyrant!
Just like when Connor died to give Duncan the Quickening to fight Jacob Kell!
Or, maybe like the Sailor Scouts dying and their power to Sailor Moon to fight Queen Beryl...
Take your pick.
Est sularis oth Mithas
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The canonical television example are the various Columbo series, where the murder and the murderer are nearly always revealed at the beginning, and the whole point of the story is to watch the noose slowly tighten around him or her. In fact, not only do you know who did it, you almost always get the notion that Columbo himself had a pretty good idea who did it from the start as well, and the story focuses not on figuring that out, but seeing if and how he'll be able to prove it.|
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
After giving this some more thought, and reading ZWill's insistence that this is how the story was always intended...
I'm like you, I don't go to the end of the mystery first, that defeats the whole purpose of reading a mystery. However... In books and Movies/TV, some stories are actually written to let you know a key fact such as a death ahead of time, to keep you on the edge waiting for it. Supernatural for instance will often show some predicament that Dean or Sam are in, only to revert to a week earlier for the actual show, building up to the finale when we get back to where we started. As long as the story was intended to not have this be a shocker from the get go, I still have faith that it will deliver the same level of satisfaction. |
In any event, there are lots of reasons why you'd signal what's going to happen in a story ahead of time, most of them revolving around the fact that the story isn't about that thing, but about the events surrounding that thing.
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I think these are all valid points, and may in fact reflect what Paragon Studios is looking to accomplish. Yet...|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The canonical television example are the various Columbo series, where the murder and the murderer are nearly always revealed at the beginning, and the whole point of the story is to watch the noose slowly tighten around him or her. In fact, not only do you know who did it, you almost always get the notion that Columbo himself had a pretty good idea who did it from the start as well, and the story focuses not on figuring that out, but seeing if and how he'll be able to prove it.
In any event, there are lots of reasons why you'd signal what's going to happen in a story ahead of time, most of them revolving around the fact that the story isn't about that thing, but about the events surrounding that thing. |
The name of the TV show was "Columbo," not "Who Did It?" The title was not at odds with the way the show functioned. At least from my perspective, titling the series "Who Will Die?" and then revealing, OUTSIDE THE ARC, that Statesman is at least part of the answer to the question (others have noted there could be more than one "Who") is at odds with the expectations raised by the title. Even if the plan was to bump off multiple folks, the series could have been titled, "Death Comes To Paragon City" or some such. "Who Will Die?" and its initial campaign suggested that it was a mystery to be unraveled. Apparently not.
Just my thought. I would not have given it that title only to reveal things outside the arc.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
Quick post, because otherwise I'll cough oil on people, but...
Sign me up for 'Son, I am REALLY disappoint' with the whole 'Who will die? Oh, don't worry, we'll TELL you before you can even play that mission!' thing. I'm sorry, that's rubbish. Like, really really rubbish. I wanted to find out FOR MYSELF. Not have some jerk in marketing ruin it early.
Yes, some series/stories are designed with a fixed course. Harry Potter springs to mind, in that the author knew WELL ahead of anyone else, and had to be careful to hide things along the way, yet still having a story that, when you looked back at, you NOW had the knowledge to see the dots and thus join them up.
Forcing people to know the finale early sucks, and sucks big.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I kind of like Statesman, actually. Even if I think most national color costumes are a bit gaudy. But Statesman the ideal is great to aspire to. Here's this man who's saved the world many times over, and is regarded as one of the most powerful individuals in the world. He's the guy you want to be, or at least be acknowledged by. Statesman the person is, of course, flawed. He's a bit old fashioned, and somewhat grumpy, but he means well, and doesn't hesitate to help those in need. But that's actually kind of good, I do like it when long lived people are written like this. Things change, people less so.
So, do I think killing Statesman is a good idea? Well, actually... It depends on how. But Statesman did have the same problem as Lord Recluse, he was becoming either a joke or irrelevant. By letting the two best known Incarnates sit out the Incarnate battles, then what use are they? And the content with Statesman in it... well... either you save him, or he's a powerful enemy to villains. And that's about it. There are very few stories about Statesman, he's just there. But what stories are there left to tell about Statesman, now that he's deliberately not part of the current major fight? I mean, we know his story. Marcus Cole, weakened by Mustard Gas set out to find the Fountain of Zeus. Drinking from it, he got the powers of Zeus. He became a superhero and has a rivalry with his old pal Lord Recluse... and the rest is a battle log and a family tree, with the Miss Liberties being the most interesting people there. Basically, Statesman's story has precious few places to go.
So you kill him. Now that is a story that has places to go. How does the world react to losing a living legend? How do the heroes handle it? The villains? Will Lord Recluse find the one who killed his rival and turn him inside out? Will Ms. Liberty? Will she team up with Uncle Stefan to do so? That's all good stories to tell, and of course, who will fill out the void blueside?
So, I'm slightly supporting of killing Statesman, but on a few conditions. States must die a hero's death. I'm talking punching Rularuu in the eye or similar. Statesman HAS to go down swinging. He deserves to die in battle. Secondly, this has to mean something. Losing Statesman should be felt in a lot of places in the game. It must have consequences. There are so many stories to tell with this, so do that.
I'll admit, I might get a little worried about Lord Recluse now... If Statesman dies, then what is Recluse's purpose now? He was kind of like Doctor Doom with Reed Richards, and now his Richards is dead. What happens now?
Also, now I want a single new costume piece to unlock on finishing the fifth arc blueside: A black armband with the Statesman Star on it. Come on, it's the classy thing to do.
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McNum, your post was very thoughtful. I hope to respond to the points you and a couple of others have raised when I have a bit more time this evening.|
Originally Posted by McNum
I'll admit, I might get a little worried about Lord Recluse now... If Statesman dies, then what is Recluse's purpose now? He was kind of like Doctor Doom with Reed Richards, and now his Richards is dead. What happens now?
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However, the Wag in me requires that I briefly posit that if it actually WERE Doctor Doom carrying on after the death of Reed Richards, he would obviously devote his entire existence to tracking down his OTHER nemesis, the bane of his existence... that #$#%^&# Squirrel Girl.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
Wonderful to see such deeply analyzing posts after the initial wave of people who just liked to go "ding dong, a signature character in the way of my character's personal glory is dead!"
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Fanfiction (and that's the best an AE story can hope to be) has never changed my view of canon. At best it would simply reinforce my given opinion that Statesman has the potential to be that guy.|
Originally Posted by SuperOz
I would direct you to 'Smoke and Mirrors', then by Mr. Hickman. It may change your view.
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Originally Posted by TroyHickman
The allusion is to the old joke: "How do you get down from an elephant?" "You don't get down from an elephant...you get down from a duck!"
But if you want a goose, I'll oblige ya... |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Who will take Statesman's place? There is only one individual (besides Dillo) who is awesome enough.
$character
We're all super.
Statesman is supposed to be a paragon, an ideal for heroes to aspire to, and for many of us he falls woefully short. He has flaws (like bad writers) and has been through quite a lot. Perhaps in death he can regain his dignity with the playerbase and finally get some rest.
Issue 23: All your base are belong to us?
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Apparently you haven't listened to the Arachnos motivational speech in GV.|
Originally Posted by Ashe T'Dust
What will a bored Well do when some of its favorite toys are removed?
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Lord Recluse ftw!
Maybe this means redside will finally get some new unique content and full complement of strikeforces.
Please buff Ice Control.
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Sorry but ALL of CoX lore is thinly disguised Marvel/DC fanfiction at best. The official stuff is just a poorly executed pastiche of those worlds without even the slightest effort at originality. Ultimately all this is is a very generic Superhero world for people to play around in, and I find it impossible to take any of the rehashed nonsense they call "lore" seriously in any way. When I'm in Paragon, I'm really in Metropolis. When I'm in Praetoria, I'm on Earth-3, when I'm talking to Manticore it's Green Arrow or to Sister Psyche it's Jean Grey. I have yet to see a piece of CoX lore that I would call in any way original. or even very interesting.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Fanfiction (and that's the best an AE story can hope to be) has never changed my view of canon. At best it would simply reinforce my given opinion that Statesman has the potential to be that guy.
You keep your hands to yourself! |
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Err, Smoke and Mirrors is not an AE guest author story. Smoke and Mirrors was originally a story arc in the Image Comics. It was canonically put into the game as an Ouroboros arc given by Twilight's Son. In the arc, the player takes the role Statesman himself played in the comic. |
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Fanfiction (and that's the best an AE story can hope to be) has never changed my view of canon. At best it would simply reinforce my given opinion that Statesman has the potential to be that guy.
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My interpretation of the arc is that the events of the comic book are canonical, but for a timeline that has been altered and Twilight Son intends to partially restore. "Canonical" is a bit slippery when it comes to Ouroboros and the Menders.
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True or not, that observation is contextually irrelevant to my point.|
Originally Posted by Judas_Ace
Sorry but ALL of CoX lore is thinly disguised Marvel/DC fanfiction at best.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Err, Smoke and Mirrors is not an AE guest author story. Smoke and Mirrors was originally a story arc in the Image Comics. It was canonically put into the game as an Ouroboros arc given by Twilight's Son. In the arc, the player takes the role Statesman himself played in the comic.
My interpretation of the arc is that the events of the comic book are canonical, but for a timeline that has been altered and Twilight Son intends to partially restore. "Canonical" is a bit slippery when it comes to Ouroboros and the Menders. |
And in case it wasn't clear, I don't really hate the character. As I do with most of the signature NPCs in this game, I largely regard him with indifference.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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'Smoke and mirrors' is ironically, given that you replied to Troy Hickman in the process of replying to me, not fan fiction. It's a TF from Twlight's Son, here:|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Fanfiction (and that's the best an AE story can hope to be) has never changed my view of canon. At best it would simply reinforce my given opinion that Statesman has the potential to be that guy.
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http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Smoke_and_Mirrors
It's also one of the best portrayals of a positive Statesman you will get to read. As for my own work? Sure, that is fanfiction, but I made sure never to contradict canon for a moment (I challenge anyone to do find such a fault in my work) and I offered an explanation for his behavior.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
I did just want to take a moment and thank everyone who's replied and contributed so far to what's been a pretty even-handed discussion coming out of a pretty polarising first reaction to the announcement. I'm particularly heartened by the amount of people speaking up in favor of Statesman and not wanting to see him go, or at the very least getting a send-off that's worth of who the character should be.
I did initially feel a little sheepish and foolish putting forth a notion that supported what many felt and feel is a four-color hero with apparently no redeeming features other than to be annoying and an annoyance to player character ambition....but now I see that there's more to it than that and it's perhaps shining a light on how we collectively see the game's addressing of superhero morality. And it's not always casting the best shadows.
I think it is genuinely unfortunate that many would see any character that espouses higher ideals or aspirational values as either outdated or irrelevant, or even non-realistic. Without meaning to sound cynical, virtually every American politician and president has a speech referring to being the best person one can be, the tolerance of a country, the moral responsibilities America has being a world leader and so on. These are the highest ideals, the most profound and real-world moral issues. And yet within the game world they are discarded like so much detritus.
I don't feel there's anything wrong with supporting characters like Statesman because even in this fictional world, his values do stand for something. I don't know if there is or has been an agenda to write him poorly, or if the character fell out of favor, or even if he was no longer considered relevant enough so it was fine to kill him off, in whatever format that will take. What I do know however is once that step has been taken, it's often hard to take the stance of supporting the character afterwards. Somewhere along the line, the tacit agreement has been made that this is the purpose that best serves the character, and I can cite both DC and Marvel's flagship characters of having had this done with them.
We as audiences first are shocked and surprised at the decision, but then eye things cynically as the character is returned. We come to expect it as a pattern of behavior. Especially when it is flagged and 'announced with great solemnity'. The last great unheralded hero death that was done without overdone fanfare in my mind was Supergirl in the original Crisis on Infinite Earths. It wasn't announced, and the first thing people knew of it was the splash cover with Superman holding her in his arms. And they ended her story. But it was such an ending. Dignified, heroic, touching and moving. Respectful of the character and subdued enough to convey the seriousness of the decision to kill them off.
It is hard for me after some years of calculated 'deaths' after that point to view this announcement with seriousness. It may present itself seriously and solemnly and be even moving, but seeing Statesman's face and image still persisting over all the advertising subverts that, intentionally or not. To announce it as it has been subverts that. The reaction by the media subverts that. And ultimately, my empathy for the character and my belief that the character is undeserving of this event in their lives and that ultimately he has not been well served by his creators subverts that.
I will patiently await Statesman's return after all the hoopla has died down and watch as people react to this current event and, perhaps, the fuller realisation of getting what it was you wished for. You may not always like it.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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In the context of the game, the arc seems to have nothing to do with Statesman. Also, after doing it just now I realised that I have, in fact, done it before. And the best part was that Cyrus was still alive at the end of it despite the mission text stating otherwise.
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Originally Posted by SuperOz
'Smoke and mirrors' is ironically, given that you replied to Troy Hickman in the process of replying to me, not fan fiction. It's a TF from Twlight's Son, here:
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Smoke_and_Mirrors It's also one of the best portrayals of a positive Statesman you will get to read. As for my own work? Sure, that is fanfiction, but I made sure never to contradict canon for a moment (I challenge anyone to do find such a fault in my work) and I offered an explanation for his behavior. S. |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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I've never read the comics, so I didn't see any connection to Statesman either. If there is, it can't reflect well, because the arc is a series of forced-failure missions.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
In the context of the game, the arc seems to have nothing to do with Statesman. Also, after doing it just now I realised that I have, in fact, done it before. And the best part was that Cyrus was still alive at the end of it despite the mission text stating otherwise.
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But if you want a goose, I'll oblige ya...
Troy Hickman - So proud to have contributed to and played in this wonderful CoH universe