Does Statesman deserve a potential killing off? I don't agree
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2011-12-13 22:16 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Yes. It serves the story best.
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Originally Posted by SuperOz
Does Statesman deserve this 'killing off'? I disagree.
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This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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Based on that logic alone, it comes off as a cheap gimmick to kill him off, then. Every MMO has its powerful NPC's. It gives you something to aspire to. I don't want the players to be the premiere heroes, because quite frankly not many of us know or want to emulate the values involved. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Nothing's wrong with him - and even if he does die, he'll still always be the premier hero of the game.
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And why? Because an NPC can be a Paragon. Players can try and emulate them.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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Then you better not log in via the launcher anytime soon.
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Originally Posted by EU_Damz
Firstly . . . . . bad form at the title!
 There are global channels ingame where people are said NOT to spoil anything and people dont want to visit the forums at the moment for the huge spoiler and titles like this is the reason why!If you read the article spoiling it, fine thats good. Dont assume everybody else wanted to read it though! *coughs* Anyway . . . . . I dont mind that he's going to die, the way he acted in the incarnate initiation arc proves that he has zero trust in anybody and he refuses to let people get the power which he has or maybe even stronger. Anybody who says they're the only ones who can be trusted with such power, needs to be smashed! |
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I don't find Statesman to be a paragon of anything. A complete waste of space, sure.|
Originally Posted by SuperOz
Based on that logic alone, it comes off as a cheap gimmick to kill him off, then. Every MMO has its powerful NPC's. It gives you something to aspire to. I don't want the players to be the premiere heroes, because quite frankly not many of us know or want to emulate the values involved.
And why? Because an NPC can be a Paragon. Players can try and emulate them. S. |
There are other heroes in the Freedom Phalanx and Paragon City (npcs AND player characters) that better define what a hero is.
If the devs wanted us to see him that way he should have been better written as that in the in-game and out of game lore.
Your mileage WILL vary.
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Hold on. You're trying to compare a visual medium where the tricks employed to foreshadow and telegraph a story event to this game? First of all though, you're right. Good writers can do this. Bad writers use it as a gimmick (The Death of Superman, the 'new' Batman) as a means of manipulating their audience into paying attention to the product. But none of the examples you cited came out and said before the story was told that x, y and z was going to happen. Before. That's not only breaking a fundamental of writing (build suspense) but also destroys any foreshadowing. |
Originally Posted by Venture
There is no such rule. Good writers do this all the time. A respondent in the official thread already mentioned J. Michael Stracynzski doing it in Babylon 5. It was most obvious with Londo Mollari's death premonition (related in the first episode, actually seen in the middle of the second season, and then the actual event took place in a time-travel story in the middle of the third and it wasn't what it looked like originally) but fairly often he telegraphed a move and then delivered it in a surprising way. (Arguably he overused the trick to the point of becoming predictable, in fact.) There are many, many other examples -- just off the top of my head Sunset Boulevard, Citizen Kane, American Beauty and Road to Perdition all "begin at the end". Of course, Paragon Studios doesn't have Sam Mendes, Orson Wells or even JMS working for them so this is probably going to suck, but that's another rant.
It doesn't affect me in the slightest. It's virtually certain that I'll see the ending coming a mile away anyway. (The Sixth Sense was the last movie that actually surprised me; I woefully underestimated Shyalmalan.) No, the question is "what's right with him?". He's practically a part of the scenery in the game, a swaggering tin-plated dictator with delusions of godhood in the comics and a self-centered jerk in the novels. He might be the most powerful hero in the setting but he's certainly not the greatest, or even great. His status in the setting is an example of an Informed Attribute. Of course, much the same could be said about any of the "signature characters". I wasn't moved. I facepalmed my way all through that story. Breakneck died because the Freedumb (sic) Phalanx was bloody incompetent. Of course you're being told how to feel! We were told how to feel about all of these characters the whole time! |
I believe your ability to guess the events of this story have been called into question already and I see no reason to dissuade you of that notion nor bolster a belief in your own abilities. I do not claim to second-guess a writer...unless they reveal their plot points to me.
As to your attributions of Statesman's character, I disagree. I doubt anything I will say will change your opinions, and your tone suggests any argument I may make to the contrary would be dismissed. You hate the character, you wish to see him gone, so in your mind this is not only a justified but welcome move. Would I be right?
As to being told how we feel, do you feel that's good storytelling? Good storytelling engenders those emotions in me. I don't by right as being a player react 'as written'. Bad writing tries to inform your character, good writing encourages you.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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Which made for predictable, 'safe' storytelling. It's a gimmick for sales' sake. It 'supposedly' guarantees higher sales, more interest in the character. It doesn't change the fact that by writing standards, it's also a guaranteed way to kill interest. |
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
It's holding to the general rules of comic book writing: much of the time when a major character is going to 'die' in comics it's announced well in advance.
Hogwash. Columbo did it all of the time. Matlock did it sometimes as well. If my interest in the story hinges on not knowing a particular detail, it's ultimately not a very good story. |
Did you ever care about these events? And it's telling that I choose the word 'events' because that is how they came to be seen: inevitably it was accepted that they were sales stunts, the deaths had no consequence and therefore no meaning and the characters would return. If these things are not the definition of why you do not reveal plot points and therefore a well-reasoned rule, I cannot see what would be.
It's built into the story with the title 'Who Will Die?' You play to see and join in the guessing game. Not knowing 'Who Will Die' is built into the maintaining of interest. If the story isn't about 'Who Will Die', then what other aspect are we the most concerned about?
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
It's holding to the general rules of comic book writing: much of the time when a major character is going to 'die' in comics it's announced well in advance.
Hogwash. Columbo did it all of the time. Matlock did it sometimes as well. If my interest in the story hinges on not knowing a particular detail, it's ultimately not a very good story. |
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I don't find Statesman to be a paragon of anything. A complete waste of space, sure.
There are other heroes in the Freedom Phalanx and Paragon City (npcs AND player characters) that better define what a hero is. If the devs wanted us to see him that way he should have been better written as that in the in-game and out of game lore. Your mileage WILL vary. |
It's our right to do that with any media we encounter. It's the very reason remakes and parodies and all manner of 'adaptations' exist. I prefer the writing and characterisation of Statesman that makes him live up to that name because I feel it's more in keeping with the character. Yes, this is my personal interpretation, and it doesn't make it any more right or wrong than yours.
But I'm not going to hang mine or anyone else's personal interpretations on the character; I did my best as a writer and a reader to judge the character on his merits and sort through what simply was mischaracterisation, the bane of all fictional characters. When I did that, I found a character with what I felt was an unfairly deserved reputation. And on that basis, not deserving of his fate.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
My apologies for the flood of replies my end, but I went to the movies and saw Puss in Boots (try killing him off! ) and have only just gotten back to this in a more positive frame of mind.
To those offended by the title, I apologise; but in all honesty there is an announcement on the front page, on the launcher, on Facebook, on mmorpg.com, a discussion about the announcement and already speculation on who will get Statesman's power after he dies all posted long before I posted up this thread.
You would honestly have to avoid all mention of this game for the next month to miss it in its ten-foot high neon glory.
In any event, I do apologise and did not mean to be callous or disrespectful.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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Although some really do dislike JE and Statesman because that was his in game related avatar I don't believe that's why his role is changing. I believe you may have answered the riddle with the bolded sentence in your quote above.|
Originally Posted by G_Savior
The hate for states is all because of the dev who had the same name. It's pretty silly, people even attribute his attitude to the character. The only other thing he's done is been one of the strongest signature heros in the game, and people just cant stand to have someone other than their characters in the spotlight.
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For a long time players (generalized) have lamented that a lot of the time they have felt more like lackeys and delivery men rather than heroes. Taking Statesman out of the spotlight may finally bring the players heroes to the forefront.
Dragon-King First level 50 -- Fire/Nrg Blaster
(and to many alts to mention)
Protector
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| Originally by Arcanaville: Everything in Praetoria was designed during a drinking binge in which the devs temporarily forgot the rules. |
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The hell with that. I'm playing the game to make my character the most awesome character they can be, because they are awesome all by themselves. |
Originally Posted by SuperOz
And why? Because an NPC can be a Paragon. Players can try and emulate them.
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They aren't just trying to be like Statesman (or Recluse, or Cole, or anybody else) when they grow up.
@Quasadu
"We must prepare for DOOM and hope for FREEM." - SirFrederick
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Unfortunately no matter which interpretation I've seen (which is why I said in game or out) they are all terrible and don't portray him in the best possible light. I say good riddance. We'll have to agree to disagree.
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Originally Posted by SuperOz
As you said, that's your mileage. I sat down and went through those contradictory characterisations of Statesman, and made a choice as a player and a reader about what rang true better. Consider this; is a character being portayed as an egotistical jerk being written well as such, or is it just simply bad writing? If it's bad writing, then you are entitled as a reader to treat it as such and disregard it.
It's our right to do that with any media we encounter. It's the very reason remakes and parodies and all manner of 'adaptations' exist. I prefer the writing and characterisation of Statesman that makes him live up to that name because I feel it's more in keeping with the character. Yes, this is my personal interpretation, and it doesn't make it any more right or wrong than yours. But I'm not going to hang mine or anyone else's personal interpretations on the character; I did my best as a writer and a reader to judge the character on his merits and sort through what simply was mischaracterisation, the bane of all fictional characters. When I did that, I found a character with what I felt was an unfairly deserved reputation. And on that basis, not deserving of his fate. S. |
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Yes. Had I not heard that Superman was going to die or that Batman was going to "fall" in advance I probably wouldn't even have bothered checking out those story arcs. What made them interesting were the dialogues and events surrounding the titular event, not the titular event itself. Much like a good detective novel, where you know the crime will be solved by the investigator, but the dialogues and situations leading to that are what make it good - even if you've already read the story, the unfolding of these events is a good read.
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Originally Posted by SuperOz
Did you ever care about these events?
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Also this. I couldn't care less about who is or isn't portrayed as a paragon. I'm not playing to be like them.
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Originally Posted by Quasadu
The hell with that. I'm playing the game to make my character the most awesome character they can be, because they are awesome all by themselves.
They aren't just trying to be like Statesman (or Recluse, or Cole, or anybody else) when they grow up. |
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So Statesman dies.
Death is rarely permanent in comics. *shrug*
The thing I am more curious about was a little statement the devs made regarding the upcoming defeat of Emporer Cole and Hami.
What will a bored Well do when some of its favorite toys are removed?
Add Statesman to the defeated Praetorians and this does not bode well. If anything, this event will make the Well more active.
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If he really ends up dead dead instead of comic book dead (Like Johnny Storm whose body wasn't even cold by the time his return was announced) we can just grab ourselves a Marcus Cole from some other dimension. There's millions of him out there.
But my money is on him not being dead dead and the real person who dies permanently will do so as part of the effort to bring States back. Currently Manticore seems the most likely to end up that way since he's got some redeeming to do after the last couple WWD arcs.
_________
@Inquisitor
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Alas, the horrible writing in the Well of Furies lore spawns more bad writing leading to Statesman's death. BTW Azure, not YOUR writing-- you are just noting what the Devs have made a "fact."|
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
and every day (Statesman) lives in fear that the Well of Furies could take him over and drive him to slaughter everyone for a cheap laugh
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Originally Posted by SuperOz
As you said, that's your mileage. I sat down and went through those contradictory characterisations of Statesman, and made a choice as a player and a reader about what rang true better. Consider this; is a character being portayed as an egotistical jerk being written well as such, or is it just simply bad writing? If it's bad writing, then you are entitled as a reader to treat it as such and disregard it.
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I also think that Statesman dying falls under the "cheap gimmick" category, the same way killing Superman and Batman were handled. People slow down to look at traffic wrecks. Folks that would not read comics ordinarily apparently checked out Supes and Bats pushing up daisies, and that is what DC wanted. It is a gimmick for marketing, nothing more, and the dramatic quality of the piece be damned. And I also think that you are spot on that it is especially lousy writing to have an arc titled "Who Will Die?" and then ANNOUNCE THE ANSWER mid-way.
The Incarnate lore and mechanics have totally turned me off to them. That is okay, there is plenty of fun to be had in the 1-50 game. But it appears the same folks that gave us the Insane Sentient Possessing Well of Furies are now going to work their magic on the lore of all of the game. It will garner attention, no doubt, and that is what they want. Apparently Shakespeare should have titled any number of his plays, "______________ Dies!" because as we have learned, the mechanics of how it happens is what attracts people to the work. *groan*
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
My personal theory is that he has a secret relationship with Bobcat and ends up being suffocated by her boobs.
I am amoung those who actually like Statesman and think that he is often perceived/ portrayed unfairly. I was also rather disappointed in the decision to tell us point-blank that he is the one who will die. I prefer to be surprised. I hate when a comic will tell you "In this Issue... Character X Dies!!!"
I have often felt that Statesman has soooo much potential as a character, but it is usually wasted. He is a tragic figure and while I can agree with the sentiment that he deserves a chance to rest, I dislike the whole approach they are taking with this story. I am very firmly in the camp that hopes he will be brought back in a few issues.
Est sularis oth Mithas
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See, that's another issue... As far as I am aware, "our" marcus is the only good one in the multiverse. Can't kill him off for that alone. |
Originally Posted by Mr_Morbid
If he really ends up dead dead instead of comic book dead (Like Johnny Storm whose body wasn't even cold by the time his return was announced) we can just grab ourselves a Marcus Cole from some other dimension. There's millions of him out there.
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A friend said to me that we "need" a character to die and come back simply because this is a comic-influenced game and that's just what happens in comics. I figure, if we have to do things just because comics do them, then we need Issue 25 to be a double-sized anniversary issue.
Est sularis oth Mithas
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It's really hard to argue against any of your points (not that I think I would |
Originally Posted by Melancton
Alas, the horrible writing in the Well of Furies lore spawns more bad writing leading to Statesman's death. BTW Azure, not YOUR writing-- you are just noting what the Devs have made a "fact."
I think you are spot on there. Troy Hickman's depiction of Statesman was one that had a lot of depth and potential. Troy's knack for scripting showed itself to best effect in that arc. The resolution was very moving-- hence the statue of Cyrus Thompson in-game. It was immediately washed away by the ham-handed writing in subsequent arcs showing Statesman as a petty, interrupting shouter, literally shown spewing spittle as he bellowed unreasonably at Manticore. As I have said before, in the background lore, 1,000 heroes willingly followed Statesman to what they knew would be almost certain death in the Alpha Gambit... and indeed, about 800 of them died. Nobody would follow Mr. ShutUpShutUpShutUp to the grocery store. It was abysmal writing. I also think that Statesman dying falls under the "cheap gimmick" category, the same way killing Superman and Batman were handled. People slow down to look at traffic wrecks. Folks that would not read comics ordinarily apparently checked out Supes and Bats pushing up daisies, and that is what DC wanted. It is a gimmick for marketing, nothing more, and the dramatic quality of the piece be damned. And I also think that you are spot on that it is especially lousy writing to have an arc titled "Who Will Die?" and then ANNOUNCE THE ANSWER mid-way. The Incarnate lore and mechanics have totally turned me off to them. That is okay, there is plenty of fun to be had in the 1-50 game. But it appears the same folks that gave us the Insane Sentient Possessing Well of Furies are now going to work their magic on the lore of all of the game. It will garner attention, no doubt, and that is what they want. Apparently Shakespeare should have titled any number of his plays, "______________ Dies!" because as we have learned, the mechanics of how it happens is what attracts people to the work. *groan* |
) simply because they all ring true. Troy Hickman and I crossed paths in a Statesman/Faultline 'shipping' thread and after some conversation, I took inspiration from him to go ahead and write an AE arc (which in the light of this announcement has left me feeling a bit deflated) as a genuine attempt to help put back some of the character that Troy had given so much dignity and strength to.I did do my best to reconcile his characterisation and I felt the loss of his wife and then so many heroes in the Rikti War would make him distant, even callous. But loving a woman for fifty years, not being able to save her with all his power...then so many heroes...of course he's going to go off the rails a bit. I really honestly wish that'd been said or touched upon before this point, before people formed opinions either derived from hatred towards Mr. Emmert or the 'heroes are dumb, let's deconstruct them' thing came along courtesy of Batman Begins. I really honestly like Statesman for all his flaws and faults. Troy Hickman wrote that he saw Statesman like the late Silver Age Superman, who was still Superman but flawed, human. He couldn't solve everything, he struggled. He got it wrong.
When people write 'no, I want to be the hero,' I wonder what it is they're asking for, and I think it's to have all of the benefits with none of the downside. Heroism to me carries self-sacrifice with it, and Statesman has fought a World War, staved off a third, helped hold off an alien invasion and so much more, all the while seeing his loved ones die around him. I wonder how many people would count that in being 'the hero'.
I agree, it's a gimmick. The Statesman and Recluse helms are gimmicks also to keep our interest away from a galaxy far far away...and I'm really sad that it's coming off that way to me, because I want it to be different. Instead, declaring your big plot point (final one or no) instead of relying on the quality of the work screams gimmick to me. It's funny; I always thought of CoH as the 1980's super-high quality equivalent of DC Comics when they were great...not the 1990's 'Who Will Die? Buy the polybag' DC....
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
I was more disappointed it got spoiled by the devs themselves. I guess it was going to be spoiled by griefers/trolls right off the bat anyways, eh?
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
This means that Xanatos is now the most powerful hero in the city. Awesome. 
Well, the spilled spoils has resulted in everyone talking about it, that's for sure. Still not convinced that's not the main purpose of it all anyways.
Some drama llamas would have you think they're on the verge of /ragequitting over the devs letting this cat out of the bag. I just wish people would let the whole arc play out before starting with the gnashing of teeth and the rending of clothes. I have a feeling even more surprises await if they're willing to throw out this major spoiler this early.
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inb4 Nemesis
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Originally Posted by NekoNeko
Well, the spilled spoils has resulted in everyone talking about it, that's for sure. Still not convinced that's not the main purpose of it all anyways.
Some drama llamas would have you think they're on the verge of /ragequitting over the devs letting this cat out of the bag. I just wish people would let the whole arc play out before starting with the gnashing of teeth and the rending of clothes. I have a feeling even more surprises await if they're willing to throw out this major spoiler this early. |
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
I would actually have some respect for him if he went on a nuts rampage on the isle looking for him
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